5 Meo- Dmt and admitting "I do not know"

[Thought Art]

12 minutes ago, Christoph Werner said:

@Flyboy 

I don't see any reason that something would block you from having the deepest insights into the nature of existence and that you would need 5-MeO to get the deepest understanding.  

Maybe it's not having the neurotransmitter you need to have the insight? 

5meodmt is very deep. But, it shouldn't be the only tool in the tool box.

See, you are both playing the same game. Thinking that your model is better than Leo and Leo thinks his is better than yours. 

Maybe just uh, go try it? Or don't

I am still learning 

It's funny to me to see people argue about which method is better, when they haven't actually tried the method. 

When you are going into the deepest nature of reality... I mean you realize there are no substances anyway. 

So, whether it's 5meodmt or meditation, two different tools with different benefits and results you will get different insights. 

Are you scared? Is that really it?

Edited August 26, 2021 by Thought Art

[Christoph Werner]

@Thought Art I've done a sub breaktrough dose. And I will do 5 MeO probably more than once. Never stated otherwise. Yes I'm also little scared and I think that's healthy as one shouldn't fuck around with 5MeO. 

There's no reason for me not to try it.

I just want to understand why Leo thinks it is not possible without 5MeO as I think that is a limiting belief. 

Also I think Leo is overdoing psychedelics.

[dearleo123]

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

Maybe it's not having the neurotransmitter you need to have the insight?

First of all, 5-meo is not a neurotransmitter but a neuromodulator of similar tryptamine activity - you don't claim one needs to take heroin to truly understand what pleasure feels like, so why claim such for 5meo and insight? For all we know, it is an overload of serotonergic circuits that mediate feelings of affection, social bonding and insight. With our current limited understanding of neurology, to simply claim it is all imaginary is just as naive as Ancient Greeks assigining differential weather activity to Gods - hence the title of this topic 'admitting I don't know'.

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

See, you are both playing the same game. Thinking that your model is better than Leo and Leo thinks his is better than yours.

Leo doesn't claim to have a model, but an objective claim of Absolute Truth. That's a hell of a difference.

 

1 hour ago, Thought Art said:

So, whether it's 5meodmt or meditation, two different tools with different benefits and results you will get different insights. 

Are you scared? Is that really it?

Bro seriously? I see you're learning gaslighting already, it's not fear but only critical thinking of one's self accord instead of blind belief, which would in turn greatly influence the result of any psychedelic experience. Leo wholeheartedly believes his interpretation of experiences, conflating God with Infinity and love that could, for all one knows, be a result of an overactive brain activity. If you claim otherwise, please do back it up with your understanding of neuroscience, I do love me some discussion. None of the circular loop of 'you're imagining it', because that's not an explanation. For all one knows, it could be a psychotic break that us mere 'mortals' cannot comprehend.

 

Enlightenment occurs only after cessation of attachment to a concept of enlightment - it's 'nothingness', as in there is nothing there to be found. No ultimate high, greatest awakenings - those are ironically the greatest obstacles in the pathway to enlightenment and peace. I don't see much of positive values of awakened masters in Leo, despite the mass of contribution in many fields on his channel. There's little compassion, respect, understanding. He parrots his own 'findings' as absolute truth, where the truth could be that all his experiences are subjective, particularly in the cause of nuclear bomb that is 5meo. He's self-absorbed to the point of not realizing so, anyone wiht a background in psychology can see so. And I say this with greatest love and respect for the guy, because he helped me loads and is a great guy and I wish him all the best.

 

EDIT: Qualia Institute argues for an opposite perspective of Leo's, and overall psychedelic, experience. It seems far more likely and makes sense in a thorough, logical manner, attaching the link here: 5-MeO-DMT Awakenings: From Naïve Realism to Symmetrical Enlightenment | Qualia Computing

And no, leo did not dismantle science. Leo has a very limited understanding of what Science actually entails, and masks it behind 'it's all very complicated and requires years of understanding and dying multiple times to grasp it'.

Edited August 26, 2021 by dearleo123
Add a contirbuting argument

[Thought Art]

@dearleo123 Have you tried 5meodmt?

I didn't really appreciate your response. I am sharing my opinion, you are gaslighting me actually into me thinking I am gaslighting. I am just sharing my view point. I am just sharing my opinion. 

 

What about meditation and 5meo having different results is gaslighting? Makes sense to me from my direct experience that they create different results. 

1. You have your understanding of enlightenment, but it's not the only one. Also his explanations of absolute truth vs relative truth are pretty powerful and concrete in my opinion. But, it does take time to watch the videos and contemplate them for myself. So, That for me is a 10+ year time horizon for me to reconcile these things for myself. There are various levels and qualities of awakening. Um, for example the Buddha and Nagarjuna made different contributions to enlightenment work. Nargajuna built upon the buddhas work. 

I sense that you are speaking intellectually and not from direct experience of actually doing the work for yourself.

2. Meditation and 5meo will give you different experiential results and aid you in your spiritual growth in different ways

3.  Whether its' a neurotransmitter or a neuromodulator isn't the point (I was using neurotransmitter loosely). The point is the experience and the insight it gives you. I was sharing my opinion as to why this experience is not likely possible through a sitting meditation method. The actual mechism that creates the experience of 5meodmt is still ellusive to scientists.. So don't go bringing in you somehow understand it BS.

4. Whether it's Leo, you, or the others in this forum you all have different models. Claiming yours is true. Maybe part of your model is not knowing but that is still where you are. Because, you might as well explain the neuroscience of meditation or yoga while you are at it. The point is, meditation and 5meodmt are acting on the brain in different ways which creates different experiences. How is that gaslighting? 

5. Also, there is an absolute truth that you can access. I mean you are here aren't you? So.. you are the truth? Duh.

6. Lastly, I have never tried herion but 5meodmt isn't just a pleasurable experience its a pretty deep and profound change in consciousness. You might want to study some of the qualitative reports of 5meodmt users and heroin users. They are radically different.

7. Lastly, words don't mean anything unless you have reference experiences for them. Which is why we waste a lot of time arguing about this stuff.

8. Did you watch Leos full 3 part series on his dismantling of science? Science still stands in imo but I sense he explained the structures and limitations in an interesting way. Still learning though.

The funny thing is, enlightenment is so valuable it doesn't matter how you get there. It's worth it. Totally.

You didn't attach a link

You can speak to me kindly. We can have different opinions and help each other move toward greater understanding. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

1 hour ago, Christoph Werner said:

@Thought Art I've done a sub breaktrough dose. And I will do 5 MeO probably more than once. Never stated otherwise. Yes I'm also little scared and I think that's healthy as one shouldn't fuck around with 5MeO. 

There's no reason for me not to try it.

I just want to understand why Leo thinks it is not possible without 5MeO as I think that is a limiting belief. 

Also I think Leo is overdoing psychedelics.

I am looking to get to the bottom of it too. I think psychedelics are an important tool which in the case of 5meodmt will give you a 5meodmt experience and because its one of the strongest psychedelics in the world maybe that is why its hard to reach through meditation? I mean, you can get pretty close through shamanic breathing to a thresh-hold dose. 

I personally can't imagine going that deep through meditation and I see meditation as a different quality of practice for my consciousness work. 5meo experience has sky rocketed

how deeply I meditate and do Qigong. So, It's all good for me. I would like to advance quickly and I personally think right now it helps me progress when approached maturely. 

I personally have a passion for yoga, meditation, Qigong, breathwork and journaling and 5meo will never replace them. They work different qualitative aspects of my consciousness. So, as I go about this for the next 10-20 years I will figure it out for myself. There are many Gurus with different opinions

One of my favourite sayings now days is "Everyone has got and opinion and an asshole)

But, the 5meodmt state when you are fully non-dual and completely eradicated it's like having a 5000 pound boulder lifted off your shoulder. 

There are conciousness benefits a trip of 5meodmt will give you, and there are different benefits from actually developing a powerful meditation and mindfulness practice. I think they work together.

Looking forward to your trip report when you are ready! 

I also am not knowing.

Leo is very pro psychedelics, which is great! I am very pro Qigong. But, I am open minded and sense the need for an integral approach and life long learning, direct experiences.

I don't give my authority to Leo or his claims. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Thought Art

[taotemu]

53 minutes ago, Christoph Werner said:

@Thought Art I've done a sub breaktrough dose. And I will do 5 MeO probably more than once. Never stated otherwise. Yes I'm also little scared and I think that's healthy as one shouldn't fuck around with 5MeO. 

There's no reason for me not to try it.

I just want to understand why Leo thinks it is not possible without 5MeO as I think that is a limiting belief. 

Also I think Leo is overdoing psychedelics.

Speaking from experience, I believe that Leo has way overdone psychedelics.  It has created an ungrounded delusional state.  He reminds me of Donald Trump.  Tons of confidence, charisma, bravado and simple one phrase answers to complex issues.  And the non-critically thinking people around him (on line) just accept it and follow him because he states things with such confidence and confirms their existing bias.  So much about him just screams of narcissism.  He can't see it of course, because he is convinced that he is right.

Also the idea that he claims to know more than the masters... "I know more than the Generals" and "I alone can fix it".  Yet where is the evidence?  Does Leo offer in person lectures or retreats?  Does anyone know if he isn't just some lonely millennial living in a basement in Las Vegas tripping on drugs and turning it into an online business?  

Leo displays none of the qualities of an enlightened master except insight.  He takes himself way too seriously.  He shows no humility.  No grace.  No compassion.  He admits to being dependent on drugs for his "enlightenment".  It is a very fragile state.  At some point something will humble him.  Arrogance like his always attracts tragedy eventually.  I hope it doesn't destroy him because I do think he has a lot to offer the world once he can integrate and ground his insights and experiences.  

 

[Inliytened1]

Here we go again....

Yes, you can awaken after two weeks of meditation...if it is time to awake.  That has been my own path and why I'm on this forum.  I knew nothing of spirituality before stumbling on these videos and began self inquiry and other meditation practices after watching (and sometimes during) and wham.   Total kundalini awakening...In Oct of 2018 my life was changed forever.   However I was 48 at the time and much older than most of you are now.. @taotemu you are one of the few here my age...

The problem, guys, is this.  I have been on this forum for a few years now and I hardly see anyone awakening like that.  Why is that?  Maybe there is some Truth to being spirituality gifted...or maybe it's something else..suffering..level of consciousness...youth....but I just don't see it happening for most.  Now come to think of it I see more of you guys having awakenings on psychedelics but even those seem to be far and few.  I've no doubt that Leo has had profound awakenings from psychedelics....but just because he has reached the Godhead via psychedelics in 15 minutes doesn't mean others will have the same level of success....however it does seem like ones chances might be better going that route if they have been meditating for years already and have not had a mystical experience.   So I would just drop any bias either way and use both methods as tools.  That's it.  When you are ready for awakening either tool could be a trigger.  Or it can be spontaneous.

[Thought Art]

18 minutes ago, taotemu said:

Speaking from experience, I believe that Leo has way overdone psychedelics.  It has created an ungrounded delusional state.  He reminds me of Donald Trump.  Tons of confidence, charisma, bravado and simple one phrase answers to complex issues.  And the non-critically thinking people around him (on line) just accept it and follow him because he states things with such confidence and confirms their existing bias.  So much about him just screams of narcissism.  He can't see it of course, because he is convinced that he is right.

Also the idea that he claims to know more than the masters... "I know more than the Generals" and "I alone can fix it".  Yet where is the evidence?  Does Leo offer in person lectures or retreats?  Does anyone know if he isn't just some lonely millennial living in a basement in Las Vegas tripping on drugs and turning it into an online business?  

Leo displays none of the qualities of an enlightened master except insight.  He takes himself way too seriously.  He shows no humility.  No grace.  No compassion.  He admits to being dependent on drugs for his "enlightenment".  It is a very fragile state.  At some point something will humble him.  Arrogance like his always attracts tragedy eventually.  I hope it doesn't destroy him because I do think he has a lot to offer the world once he can integrate and ground his insights and experiences.  

 

I appreciate your perspective. I think it's actually a misconception that an enlightened person acts a certain way though. Enlightened people can be confident direct, and have opinions. And, in my opinion he does show grace, humility etc. But, that is only through my limited perspective. 

Leo speaks in a pretty casual way on the forum... 

I mean, he was running Actualized years before he starting tripping as far as I know. He also didn't come up with psychedelics being a tool for enlightenment. There is a long thousand year history of humans using them to reach higher states. 

He also has explained in videos its not JUST psychedelics in his opinion. But, a holistic approach of various types of yoga, meditation and psychedelics. 

I am studying Qigong, and I have read that ancient Qigong practitioner used "Chemicals and herbs" to perform inner alchemy.

Many of these Master don't use the same tools. They all know different qualities of consciousness and human experience. Leo has likely reached deeper and different states than other people. But, personally this isn't a claim I can verify and I am open to this being a delusion on Leos part.

Many of these masters did not read, or grow up in an age of information like Leo is. 

Who knows. I will continue to observe over time. My personal experience with 5meo I would describe as an enlightened state. It's a state I am mastering through practice. It's a scary and confusing place to be at first. But, it's important. Don't dive in head first every time with 5meo. You can measure out a 20 dose, and vape it in peices as you safely explore around.

I personally think if Leo was like donald trump I wouldn't be here, and this whole place would be a fucking mess. 

I think it isn't easy to see it, but he is doing something pretty profound from my point of view. But, I am just one guy with my own limited perspective.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Thought Art

[Thought Art]

12 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Here we go again....

Yes, you can awaken after two weeks of meditation...if it is time to awake.  That has been my own path and why I'm on this forum.  I knew nothing of spirituality before stumbling on these videos and began self inquiry and other meditation practices after watching (and sometimes during) and wham.   Total kundalini awakening...In Oct of 2018 my life was changed forever.   However I was 48 at the time and much older than most of you are now.. @taotemu you are one of the few here my age...

The problem, guys, is this.  I have been on this forum for a few years now and I hardly see anyone awakening like that.  Why is that?  Maybe there is some Truth to being spirituality gifted...or maybe it's something else..suffering..level of consciousness...youth....but I just don't see it happening for most.  Now come to think of it I see more of you guys having awakenings on psychedelics but even those seem to be far and few.  I've no doubt that Leo has had profound awakenings from psychedelics....but just because he has reached the Godhead via psychedelics in 15 minutes doesn't mean others will have the same level of success....however it does seem like ones chances might be better going that route if they have been meditating for years already and have not had a mystical experience.   So I would just drop any bias either way and use both methods as tools.  That's it.  When you are ready for awakening either tool could be a trigger.

Leo also meditated an hour a day for like what, 3 or 4 years before doing psychedelics and he had done tonnes a research leading up to it. He wasn't like just some guy tripping once and all this came about 

I don't think Leo is perfect. But, he has had a profound impact on me. 

No human is perfect, as they are finite. 

I am still learning. I would consider myself very early in my journey.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Thought Art

[Inliytened1]

2 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

Leo also meditated an hour a day for like what, 3 or 4 years before doing psychedelics and he had done tonnes a research leading up to it. He wasn't like just some guy tripping once and all this came about 

Yes that's very true come to think about it.  I believe he spent countless hours on retreats and things of that nature.  And so he was already primed and ready when he took psychedelics.   

 

[Flyboy]

4 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Shinzen Young is not God-Realized. And nothing you say will change that.

Sounds like you want to follow in his footsteps. Be my guest.

Thanks for blatantly ignoring all of my detailed questions trying to get you to look at yourself (I really don't care what Shinzen is or isn't).  I've stuck up for you on many occasions and recommended your channel to many people, but I'm starting to realize that you really are falling deeper and deeper into some kind of narcissism.  Very sad for Actualized.org.

[impulse9]

Those who talk do not know. Those who know do not talk. 

[Inliytened1]

3 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

 Those who know do not talk. 

Your limiting the unlimited to doing one thing and not another

 

[Consilience]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@Consilience I don't doubt your authenticity. But authenticity is cheap in a world of infinite self-deception.

So is making claims about meditation and spiritual masters without decades worth of direct experience.
 

No amount of you shitting on meditation will change the fact that my baseline meditation practice consistently feels like 35-50ug of LSD, not to mention sessions which get abnormally more deep. Im only 3.5 years into serious practice. Where will I be in another 10? Where will you be? Then let’s talk about what’s cheap. 

[Consilience]

I remember watching an earlier Actualized video before I got serious about consciousness work where Leo made the claim that our radical baseline consciousness could be radically transformed. It was a killer sales pitch and I fell hook line and sinker. This was a couple years before he become so overtly pro-psychedelic. In many ways, it’s because of Leo’s old teachings that I’ve had such success with practice… hearing this dude claim I could make such transformations was really inspiring and for some reason I just had faith he was right. It wasn’t necessarily Leo, but something Leo’s words stirred inside. That instinct to go within has been the driving force that’s continued to push me further and further, to the point where my baseline state is starting to actually become psychedelic. Hundreds of hours of practice later, a lifetime to go, and nothing but gratitude for stumbling into Actualized.org. The irony that I now so vehemently disagree with my first spiritual teacher is… shocking. 
 

1 hour per day of meditation for 2.5 years

2 hours per day of meditation for 1 year

3 meditation retreats of 80-100 hours of practice in the last 9 months

Aggressive psychedelic travel, entering into foreign dimensions, past lives, parallel lives, meeting my ligh body/soul, horrific experiences, heavenly bliss, absolute Love and God, stepping into infinity, into the divine. 

Reading copious amounts of material from a wide variety of spiritual masters.

Metric fucktons of passive contemplation while going on walks, hiking, exercising, working

If one wants to truly know the truth, ironically all they’d have to do is apply the principles Leo teaches rather than believing the language Leo speaks. Actualized.org is an actual goldmine. 

“You can only lead people as high as you’ve gone.” 

[Thought Art]

11 minutes ago, Consilience said:

I remember watching an earlier Actualized video before I got serious about consciousness work where Leo made the claim that our radical baseline consciousness could be radically transformed. It was a killer sales pitch and I fell hook line and sinker. This was a couple years before he become so overtly pro-psychedelic. In many ways, it’s because of Leo’s old teachings that I’ve had such success with practice… hearing this dude claim I could make such transformations was really inspiring and for some reason I just had faith he was right. It wasn’t necessarily Leo, but something Leo’s words stirred inside. That instinct to go within has been the driving force that’s continued to push me further and further, to the point where my baseline state is starting to actually become psychedelic. Hundreds of hours of practice later, a lifetime to go, and nothing but gratitude for stumbling into Actualized.org. The irony that I now so vehemently disagree with my first spiritual teacher is… shocking. 
 

1 hour per day of meditation for 2.5 years

2 hours per day of meditation for 1 year

3 meditation retreats of 80-100 hours of practice in the last 9 months

Aggressive psychedelic travel, entering into foreign dimensions, past lives, parallel lives, meeting my ligh body/soul, horrific experiences, heavenly bliss, absolute Love and God, stepping into infinity, into the divine. 

Reading copious amounts of material from a wide variety of spiritual masters.

Metric fucktons of passive contemplation while going on walks, hiking, exercising, working

If one wants to truly know the truth, ironically all they’d have to do is apply the principles Leo teaches rather than believing the language Leo speaks. Actualized.org is an actual goldmine. 

“You can only lead people as high as you’ve gone.” 

Amazing

[taotemu]

2 minutes ago, Consilience said:

 The irony that I now so vehemently disagree with my first spiritual teacher is… shocking. 

This is a profound sign of growth.  Probably something to be celebrated.  

I don't consider Leo to be my spiritual teacher at all.  He is my 5MeO teacher and that is why I first came to Actualized.org.  It is a drug I had never taken but wanted to.  I was looking for someone who had a lot more experience and Leo sure fit that bill.   I was intrigued by him and what he had to say at first.  I have watched a few of his videos and have interacted with him here and frankly I'm not impressed.  I get that he has helped many people.  I guess I'm just in a different place.  I get the impression that most of his students are much younger.  I'm 55 years old and have been doing spiritual work since I was 15.  I have worked face to face with masters and Leo just isn't there yet.  He just simply lacks maturity, wisdom and integration.  The stuff that takes decades to really get.  There are reasons that most masters are 50 + years old.  His over confidence and narcissism are major liabilities to his future.  There are no shortcuts.  Not even 5MeO-DMT.  Beware of unearned wisdom folks. 

[Thought Art]

By the way, if you agree about everything with your spiritual teacher that is red flag.

Leo's teachings are pretty advanced and his books list is full of masters I am reading and learning from. Just don't expect to get a full picture of spirituality from one person or system or teaching. 

If you've only watch a few videos then you are sort of just speaking out of your ass about how Wise he is when you haven't even listen to him in depth.

Edited August 27, 2021 by Thought Art

[taotemu]

6 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

By the way, if you agree about everything with your spiritual teacher that is red flag.

Leo's teachings are pretty advanced and his books list is full of masters I am reading and learning from. Just don't expect to get a full picture of spirituality from one person or system or teaching. 

If you've only watch a few videos then you are sort of just speaking out of your ass about how Wise he is when you haven't even listen to him in depth.

Fair enough.  I don't know the man, and as you point out, I haven't studied his work in depth.  I get that this is advanced stuff.  I wouldn't even consider putting in this much time otherwise.

But when a few weeks into learning about him and his teachings red flags are popping up all over the place I don't see much point in diving deeper.  I'm open to being proven wrong about Leo, but based on my less than a month being active here I keep looking for reasons to stay.  I've gotten some great insight from other members here and my ego has enjoyed the banter and debate.  Is that enough to stick around?  We shall see. 

[impulse9]

The problem with psychedelics isn't that they aren't profound, it's that it's borrowed power. This is where shamanic principles come into play. According to shamanism, these are all inorganic entities. When you take LSD, you consume a specific molecule which corresponds to a specific intelligent agent. These agents aren't bound to the physical world, but this chemical connects the two like a bridge. And this agent allows you to borrow the power required to literally survive that state. If you were to enter those states in your normal mode of consciousness, you would simply die, it is too much to handle. This is why psychedelics can never enlighten you, for as long as you depend on them to enter heightened states of consciousness, you are not using your own power, and therefore you're only getting glimpses. And no matter how many glimpses you get, they flee as soon as they come. True masters can use their own power to enter these states. They don't talk about it because it's unwise. You have to realize that true masters see normal human beings the same way you see children. It is out of their infinite compassion that they do not share the highest secrets of the universe. While I love Leo's content and I believe he definitely hits the nail on the head on several advanced metaphysical topics, personally I feel that he is resentful towards masters because he sees them holding back on wisdom, and this infuriates his logical, problem solving mind. He sees someone like Eckhart Tolle talking about letting go and it naturally pisses him off since he can't get over how non-stimulating he is to the mind. But see that's the entire point. Stimulating your mind is the best recipe to remain trapped in the mind. Eckhart Tolle knows far more than he shows, and so do all other true masters. They don't speak about it because speaking about it makes it vanish. You either experience it directly, or it's a bunch of meaningless mouth noises. From silence comes true power. And true power is the force that enlightens you.