5 Meo- Dmt and admitting "I do not know"

[Flyboy]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually I do.

If Shinzen Young cannot do it after 40 years of professional practice, your chances are basically zero.

Stop giving people bullshit ideas. You are not going to reach 5-MeO-DMT levels of consciousness via meditation. This is a joke. It's like telling a dwarf that he can play in the NBA.

Enlightenment is possible in ~5 years of dedicated practice.  Sometimes even much less than that.  You should drop the arrogance you have about the "levels of consciousness" that you've reached, which itself is a story and idea, and certainly not happening NOW.  Did you actually read all those books on your booklist?  I'm skeptical sometimes.  You lack a deep understanding of what "traditional" enlightenment is really about.  Have you experienced the Jhanas?  Have you had a cessation?  Do you have any idea what luminosity looks like in waking sober consciousness?  Do you understand dependent origination and emptiness, especially dependent fabrication of perception and consciousness?

You think you know "so much" that you have constructed catch-all defenses to shore up your spiritual ego from the threat of actually doing this very detailed, subtle, and brutally honest work (such as: "it's all your imagination and you'll just say anything to convince yourself you're not what I say" and "time doesn't exist so enlightenment is eternal" - both copouts).  It's just wild to me that you can make 3 hour videos on self-bias and self-deception and yet be totally blind to your own.

Wait for it.... "You're just God trying to talk me out of knowing that I'm God."  Okay bro.

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

Actually I do.

If Shinzen Young cannot do it after 40 years of professional practice, your chances are basically zero.

Stop giving people bullshit ideas. You are not going to reach 5-MeO-DMT levels of consciousness via meditation. This is a joke. It's like telling a dwarf that he can play in the NBA.

Ive had one on one conversations with Shinzen where he described his 5-MeO experiences. He explained that it was just a really really really deep meditation state, and that while he was impressed, it wasn’t a substitute for practice. This was a very recent conversation, and a very recent set of experiences for Shinzen. 

Last time I smoked NN-DMT, first time doing a serious psychedelic in months, I was shocked at how little the context of my experience shifted. Ie even though perceptive field did a 180 degree turn out of reality, consciousness was still just as much consciousness before and after ingestion. I went in with a awareness of God while sober, and nothing about that awareness changed while high. Even though egoic self referential thought was terrified, memory structures completely collapsing, surrendering, in awe, the background context out of which the experience arose and passed was completely unchanged. The most powerful part was I was still conscious of that unchanged quality.

These are not bullshit ideas. Im actually out there doing the work to verify this. The fact that you think this possibility is bullshit speaks to a blind spot you’ve created out of this work and is incredibly unfortunate given how many people follow and are deeply influenced by your work. I very much used to be in the camp that these spiritual teachers must be full of shit, especially since many don’t have serious experience with psychedelics, and you know what? I bet many of them are full of shit. But people like Ralston or Shinzen speaking to the necessity and profundity of manual practice aren’t. Both have experience with psychedelics. 

You might argue that these teachers just need to experiment more, and ok maybe. Or maybe they’ve realized something so fundamental about the nature of reality, no particular state, experience, perception, alteration of mind, or shift in experience at all could change. 

What is a more powerful vision for life? Always needing another hit of a psychedelic to truly see God in its totality, or being able to access it at any time? Id say for 99% the latter is more powerful. But the only way that would be possible is to drop any beliefs about what is or isnt possible while sober and get serious about the work. 
 

Edit: please understand I say all this with immense gratitude and compassion for you and others on this site series about the work.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Consilience

[impulse9]

If you believe Eckhart Tolle would be impressed by DMT, think again.  The ineffable truths these masters talk about can seem very tame and mild but they are anything but. They penetrate the depths of reality and go further than most imagine. The reason they don't talk about it is very fundamental. And I have a hunch Leo's going to figure this out soon as well. If you talk about mystical experiences all you do is make people create images in their minds, none of which are actually correct, and cannot be correct, so therefore talking about mystical experiences provides no benefit to anyone. Don't underestimate simplicity. The simplest possible practice and the most hardcore possible practice paradoxically meet because they are one and the same. There's nothing to achieve and yet we work towards achieving it. There's nothing to do yet we're doing it. This is the ultimate mindfuck.

[taotemu]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If Shinzen Young cannot do it after 40 years of professional practice, your chances are basically zero.

Stop giving people bullshit ideas. You are not going to reach 5-MeO-DMT levels of consciousness via meditation. This is a joke. It's like telling a dwarf that he can play in the NBA.

Based on what may I ask?

So the only way to the highest levels of consciousness is with 5MeO?  But I thought psychedelics weren't real.  It is all a dream.  

When you realize that consciousness is right here and right now, you stop looking for levels.  THIS is it.  There are no freaking levels.  That is just a story built by your ego.  Consciousness is immediate, eternal presence.  The best psychedelics can do is light a candle so you can recognize fire.  Once you can recognize it you don't mistake the candle for the Sun.   

[Flyboy]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

Ive had one on one conversations with Shinzen where he described his 5-MeO experiences. He explained that it was just a really really really deep meditation state, and that while he was impressed, it wasn’t a substitute for practice. This was a very recent conversation, and a very recent set of experiences for Shinzen. 

Last time I smoked NN-DMT, first time doing a serious psychedelic in months, I was shocked at how little the context of my experience shifted. Ie even though perceptive field did a 180 degree turn out of reality, consciousness was still just as much consciousness before and after ingestion. I went in with a awareness of God while sober, and nothing about that awareness changed while high. Even though egoic self referential thought was terrified, memory structures completely collapsing, surrendering, in awe, the background context out of which the experience arose and passed was completely unchanged. The most powerful part was I was still conscious of that unchanged quality.

These are not bullshit ideas. Im actually out there doing the work to verify this. The fact that you think this possibility is bullshit speaks to a blind spot you’ve created out of this work and is incredibly unfortunate given how many people follow and are deeply influenced by your work. I very much used to be in the camp that these spiritual teachers must be full of shit, especially since many don’t have serious experience with psychedelics, and you know what? I bet many of them are full of shit. But people like Ralston or Shinzen speaking to the necessity and profundity of manual practice aren’t. Both have experience with psychedelics. 

You might argue that these teachers just need to experiment more, and ok maybe. Or maybe they’ve realized something so fundamental about the nature of reality, no particular state, experience, perception, alteration of mind, or shift in experience at all could change. 

What is a more powerful vision for life? Always needing another hit of a psychedelic to truly see God in its totality, or being able to access it at any time? Id say for 99% the latter is more powerful. But the only way that would be possible is to drop any beliefs about what is or isnt possible while sober and get serious about the work. 
 

Edit: please understand I say all this with immense gratitude and compassion for you and others on this site series about the work.

So well said.

I echo that I am simultaneously incredibly grateful to Leo for tireless mountains of work that is lifechanging for so many people (myself included), WHILE maintaining a tough-love criticism of what I have come to see as a deep blind spot in his approach.

[James12345]

6 hours ago, The0Self said:

^^ This.

(duh...) 

???

[Ry4n]

wow! was it just a few experiences though? It can take a solid handful of experiences to really hit the nail sometimes to give Leo credit there. Just maybe not hundreds of times to the point you lose ya fucking marbles lol 

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

Ive had one on one conversations with Shinzen where he described his 5-MeO experiences. He explained that it was just a really really really deep meditation state, and that while he was impressed, it wasn’t a substitute for practice. This was a very recent conversation, and a very recent set of experiences for Shinzen. 

 

[Flowerfaeiry]

2 hours ago, Consilience said:

Last time I smoked NN-DMT, first time doing a serious psychedelic in months, I was shocked at how little the context of my experience shifted.

Didn't smoke enough

[Leo Gura]

Shinzen Young is not God-realized.

I told you guys many times before, but you refuse to listen and I will not argue with you. I got better things to do than convince you.

Do not fool yourself into thinking that you understand everything with meditation.

You think you're being clever, but you're just being dumb.

[Flowerfaeiry]

I don't know if this is accurate to say or not but I think of meditation as having the integration already "built in" where as with a dmt experience you go further but have to integrate later. 

[JuliusCaesar]

I've mediated and I've also done psychedelics. I can say that meditation(vipassana) is ridiculously slow and ineffective in comparison to psychedelics. As for your point about integration it's sort of true just by virtue of how impotent basic meditation is. Your ego remains more intact during meditation than in a psychedelic trip. So you can integrate whatever your experience faster.

Edited August 26, 2021 by JuliusCaesar

[Consilience]

33 minutes ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

Didn't smoke enough

Perhaps. ?

1 hour ago, Ry4n said:

wow! was it just a few experiences though? It can take a solid handful of experiences to really hit the nail sometimes to give Leo credit there. Just maybe not hundreds of times to the point you lose ya fucking marbles lol 

 

Right just a few. Ive considered this too.
 

@Leo Gura Im not looking for an argument. Only to plant seeds in the minds open enough to consider. The authenticity of my writing will either come across or it wont. 

Edited August 26, 2021 by Consilience

[Leo Gura]

@Consilience I don't doubt your authenticity. But authenticity is cheap in a world of infinite self-deception.

[cetus]

Just look around. Does reality need to know anything? All I'm seeing is spontaneous intelligence.

[Flyboy]

13 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Shinzen Young is not God-realized.

I told you guys many times before, but you refuse to listen and I will not argue with you. I got better things to do than convince you.

Do not fool yourself into thinking that you understand everything with meditation.

You think you're being clever, but you're just being dumb.

@Leo Gura Alright, let's unpack some assumptions, Leo: 

1. You are assuming that being "God-realized" is a real thing

2. You are assuming you "know" and that Shinzen "does not know"

3. You are assuming your insights are more genuine / advanced than others

4. You are assuming you are NOT missing something important

5. You are assuming that although these masters insistently claim there is something unfathomable about enlightenment that has nothing to do with psychedelics, that they are WRONG, despite lacking a personal experience with what they are talking about

6. You are assuming that you CAN experience "Truth" while functioning from the perspective of the egoic self (ie. you still experience separation, self-identification, and awareness from an egoic perspective)

7. You assume that "ego" is some reified thing that disappears with the right psychedelic experience, rather than something much more nuanced: the root identification your mind has with a myriad of patterns, behaviors, implicit beliefs, and feelings (even of awareness) that penetrates all the way to the core of your experience

Basically, you are engaged in some serious self-deception of your own.  You will not acknowledge this because it threatens the identity you have as a "God-realized teacher" who gets to "speak from above" to everyone.  You betray this identity constantly, in all of your communications.  I say this not to criticize but mainly because it makes me sad.  I wish someone could get through to you.  You are one of the best sources of wisdom I have found and it's literally painful to see you doing this, blind to your own wisdom.

[Leo Gura]

Shinzen Young is not God-Realized. And nothing you say will change that.

Sounds like you want to follow in his footsteps. Be my guest.

[dearleo123]

@Leo Gura  Jeez Leo, Flyboy is not talking about Shinzen, he's talking about you. There's some serious deflection going on in your post, it's like you're not even conscious of how egoic and self-righteous you sound in not even considering another POV.

[taotemu]

@Flyboy @dearleo123 Nothing you can say and do will get through.  You have to recognize what you are dealing with in Leo.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Narcissistic_personality_disorder  

[Thought Art]

51 minutes ago, Flyboy said:

@Leo Gura Alright, let's unpack some assumptions, Leo: 

1. You are assuming that being "God-realized" is a real thing

2. You are assuming you "know" and that Shinzen "does not know"

3. You are assuming your insights are more genuine / advanced than others

4. You are assuming you are NOT missing something important

5. You are assuming that although these masters insistently claim there is something unfathomable about enlightenment that has nothing to do with psychedelics, that they are WRONG, despite lacking a personal experience with what they are talking about

6. You are assuming that you CAN experience "Truth" while functioning from the perspective of the egoic self (ie. you still experience separation, self-identification, and awareness from an egoic perspective)

7. You assume that "ego" is some reified thing that disappears with the right psychedelic experience, rather than something much more nuanced: the root identification your mind has with a myriad of patterns, behaviors, implicit beliefs, and feelings (even of awareness) that penetrates all the way to the core of your experience

Basically, you are engaged in some serious self-deception of your own.  You will not acknowledge this because it threatens the identity you have as a "God-realized teacher" who gets to "speak from above" to everyone.  You betray this identity constantly, in all of your communications.  I say this not to criticize but mainly because it makes me sad.  I wish someone could get through to you.  You are one of the best sources of wisdom I have found and it's literally painful to see you doing this, blind to your own wisdom.

Okay, but what is flyboy assuming here too.

Whole lot of assumptions assuming assumptions in this post ahah

Better do experiment do the work than to argue

@taotemu Maybe... But we all have our own opinion. What makes you folks any less of a narcisit for standing your ground on your views or direct experiences? 

I don't believe any of you. Leo or who else. I am going to get my own answers.

Edited August 26, 2021 by Thought Art

[Christoph Werner]

18 hours ago, Flyboy said:

Enlightenment is possible in ~5 years of dedicated practice.  Sometimes even much less than that.  You should drop the arrogance you have about the "levels of consciousness" that you've reached, which itself is a story and idea, and certainly not happening NOW.  

....

You think you know "so much" that you have constructed catch-all defenses to shore up your spiritual ego from the threat of actually doing this very detailed, subtle, and brutally honest work (such as: "it's all your imagination and you'll just say anything to convince yourself you're not what I say" and "time doesn't exist so enlightenment is eternal" - both copouts).  It's just wild to me that you can make 3 hour videos on self-bias and self-deception and yet be totally blind to your own.

Wait for it.... "You're just God trying to talk me out of knowing that I'm God."  Okay bro.

@Flyboy 

I agree with this. Leo thinks he has the unbeatable kind of logic. 

And I also agree that he is putting off  this "very detailed, subtle, and brutally honest work" 

I don't see any reason that something would block you from having the deepest insights into the nature of existence and that you would need 5-MeO to get the deepest understanding.  

2 hours ago, Flyboy said:

@Leo Gura 

7. You assume that "ego" is some reified thing that disappears with the right psychedelic experience, rather than something much more nuanced: the root identification your mind has with a myriad of patterns, behaviors, implicit beliefs, and feelings (even of awareness) that penetrates all the way to the core of your experience

Basically, you are engaged in some serious self-deception of your own.  You will not acknowledge this because it threatens the identity you have as a "God-realized teacher" who gets to "speak from above" to everyone.  You betray this identity constantly, in all of your communications.  I say this not to criticize but mainly because it makes me sad.  I wish someone could get through to you.  You are one of the best sources of wisdom I have found and it's literally painful to see you doing this, blind to your own wisdom.

Also very well said.  

He creates this identity as a "God-realized teacher" who gets to "speak from above" to everyone. He makes himself important, because without him sharing his "most advanced" teachings to us "blind, self deceived humans", all of humanity would be lost. Like this he can basically spawn infinite insights that are "important" and "good" and need to be shared with us and that actually distracts him from the real work. And then when he actually takes 30 days off to meditate, he get's frustrated with meditation and switches to 5MeO to reinforce his identity instead of realizing that he still hasn't figured a big part of this work. 

Sadly Leo, sometimes you're making a joke out of yourself. To me Your health condition shows this clearly also. Mind can trick you in an infinite ways, body doesn't lie. Then thinking you can heal yourself from a psychedelic state. This clearly shows how ignorant you are of how your body works.