Sage Mode

[Martin123]

@kurt I'm surprised you make the assumption I don't do the work.

That is one factual error you made.

[kurt]

2 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying. But the arrogant, narcissistic glow coming out of your posts makes it worth a while. 

So go on, educate more on what enlightenment is and is not.

 

Neurosis after enlightenment could seem like it's not there anymore. And in a sense it isn't. It no longer causes suffering, and you don't act compulsively.

so we're not moving in the boundaries of the definition of neurosis I suppose.

However you still have that same pattern within yourself (it is biologically there). That's why spiritual purification doesn't equal enlightenment. Now when you reach enlightenment, it sure becomes easier (I'd imagine) to correct the pattern, because it no longer serves any purpose of identity. But it doesn't do it by itself.

It's not really possible to have emotional release of all your dysfunctional patterns at once. Imo body couldn't take that. You get dettached, and you continue (if you choose to) with dissolving neuroses.

If i harboured a value for what you thought of me, then I might take your feedback.  The good thing is, I dont value anyones opinion of me or my behaviour.  For all I know you could be fucked up in the head and call everyone who doesnt agree with you "arrogant"?

You use a wepon of me "educating" me on what enlightenment is, yet your following words are "educating" me on enlightenment. Weird. 

You sound like you are equating spirituality and enlightenment with all the "good" things about people.  Thats not enlightenment.  Read what I've said already, because Im not bothering wasting my energy talking to an idiot who cant try to listen to another person and who just wants to be right.  You have no idea what enlightenment is, you think you know, but you dont know.  If you want to know then start doing the actual work and you will see for yourself what delusion is.  Its easy to spot when you begin to let go of your own

[kurt]

4 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

@kurt I'm surprised you make the assumption I don't do the work.

That is one factual error you made.

Its easy to see youre not doing the work, you have problems with being called an idiot, and you believe leos idealism.  Thats enough for me to see youre not doing any of the real work.  You are probably meditating to relive stress, or doing western psychotherapy which makes the deluded ego stronger. You are a trainee therapist are you not?  That is one fucked up paradigm

[AlwaysBeNice]

6 hours ago, Frogfucius said:

You see, you keep putting these "masters" on a pedestal, like they're living a better life than anyone else. A true quote unquote "enlightened" person realizes that there is no enlightenment, and that there's no difference between a saint, some thieving bum who lives on the street,

But we can continue working on some non-existent path that leads to nowhere. Hell, society has been leading us like that since we were born. First, grade school. Then college, then a job, then retirement, then you fucking die. Human life is manufactured to feel inauthentic and mundane.

Can't it be both again? If there's one thing that seems to stick it's the paradox, it's always both.

Yes, master and no masters are the same, and no, they are not the same.

Yes, there is nothing to do, and because there is nothing to do, there is everything to do. 

Also, the system stands because people uphold it and don't act to change it, but it will change just like it always has in the past, because some minority got up and inspired the majority, which will you be?

[CreativeInertia]

@kurt  I am just wondering what would you suggest for a person pursuing enlightenment? focus on the practice instead of the "ideal"? and let's say in one point or another I "reach" enlightenment? you suggest continuing with your ingrained habits and beliefs (which from what I understand still exist.. although not taken seriously) and letting things unfold? 

You still have to make choices (maybe you will say it's not you who is making them, but regardless) - be healthy/be unhealthy, stay in a certain career/find a new career, focus on improving the world/ focus on living your life without concern for the world

and I also feel that although the sage is an ideal, it still makes the highest impact on people in terms of reducing suffering (that's what great teachers do, right?). You would probably say that people's suffering is an illusion. but let  me assure you my suffering is very, very real for me. and for other people. couldn't you, as someone who've probably experienced tough times and suffering in his life emphathise with it? 

 

I am really confused about it and I feel this argument has no purpose whatsoever.

Thanks

Edited December 11, 2016 by CreativeInertia

[Martin123]

3 minutes ago, kurt said:

Its easy to see youre not doing the work, you have problems with being called an idiot, and you believe leos idealism.  Thats enough for me to see youre not doing any of the real work.  You are probably meditating to relive stress, or doing western psychotherapy which makes the deluded ego stronger. You are a trainee therapist are you not?  That is one fucked up paradigm

That I am indeed. You're right that there are many things very wrong with the western psychotherapeutic system.

 

I don't get streessed rly. I do the "work" not for the sake of enlightenment, but for alleviation of neurosis. I've gone through a ugly period of a purification phase you'd call dark night of the soul in some traditions. And it's not totally over yet so hey I am compulsive egotistical and neurotic just like anyone else.

'But you're waaayyy too quick to judge.

[Bebop]

18 minutes ago, kurt said:

No, its not.  Who is saying "society is not the way I want it to be" "my life is not the way I want it to be"  thats the ego.  Its clear to me that you are not awakened either, and you are an idiot, because youre speaking about things you dont have a clue about.  How can a "non existent" ego do what it wants and strive for a happiness greater than itself in the form of an external life situation?  You disclose yourself as a fool who is making this up as he goes along

You missed my point, I never said anything was wrong with society, I just want to undo the conditioning that I was lead to believe. I'm well aware of the illusion of the ego , I've had several no-self experiences myself. To be honest it seems that you are very attached to your identity and are unwilling to let it go, and now you are projecting to other people out of your own insecurity. Go ahead call me an idiot for making that statement

[Frogfucius]

4 minutes ago, AlwaysBeNice said:

Can't it be both again? If there's one thing that seems to stick it's the paradox, it's always both.

Yes, master and no masters are the same, and no, they are not the same.

Yes, there is nothing to do, and because there is nothing to do, there is everything to do. 

Also, the system stands because people uphold it and don't act to change it, but it will change just like it always has in the past, because some minority got up and inspired the majority, which will you be?

You'll come to understand that there is no paradox. Reality is consistent, once you fully understand it. I didn't say to not do what you want - just that clinging to ideals is a very dangerous situation, especially among those on the so-called spiritual path. Jesus sought to change his own culture's ideals, and to make it a "better" place. Instead, he left a huge mess behind in the world. Look at how much neuroses and suffering was caused by the idiots who took Christian ideals too far. Even if Jesus had the best intentions, Christianity turned into a business and a political conglomerate - something Jesus would shake his head at. This isn't unique to Christianity, it goes for all ideals. Look at communism, and so forth.

12 minutes ago, CreativeInertia said:

and I also feel that although the sage is an ideal, it still makes the highest impact on people in terms of reducing suffering (that's what great teachers do, right?). You would probably say that people's suffering is an illusion. but let  me assure you my suffering is very, very real for me. and for other people. couldn't you, as someone who've probably experienced tough times and suffering in his life emphasise with it? 

Suffering is real. It's just part of being human. We are cursed with the "gift" of thought, and that has been our downfall - the fall of man. You can completely surrender to this suffering and just accept it, or you can try and eliminate it. But once you try and eliminate it, all you're doing is trying to get a one-up on yourself - something you can't possibly do.

You are correct though, this argument is pointless. Just like every discussion.

[kurt]

2 hours ago, Bebop said:

You missed my point, I never said anything was wrong with society, I just want to undo the conditioning that I was lead to believe. I'm well aware of the illusion of the ego , I've had several no-self experiences myself. To be honest it seems that you are very attached to your identity and are unwilling to let it go, and now you are projecting to other people out of your own insecurity. Go ahead call me an idiot for making that statement

I have come to my understanding through my own experience and doing the work.  If Im "attached" to that just means that its working for me.  I was ready to commit suicide two years ago, and if it was not for my spiritual path i would not be here now.  Its going to take 20-30 years to become non attached to a system that saved me from taking my own life.  If you imagine that this is a case of just dropping all ideas then you are mistaken.  Ideas in the end release us from all ideas and identifications, in the end, not halfaway through, not just because some idiot on a website requests it of us because they want to win and disarm others by telling them they are identified with their path.  And not because i couldnt really give a toss about what you think you know about "enlightement" while you stand there and speak in a way that very clearly deomostrates that you have merely made a conceptual ideology of this work and that you are indeed not free, or do you see that your ego was an idea, because free people dont need to strive for a better happiness than what already is.  And yes, you can learn what projection is from one of leos videos and then use that as a weapon against anyone who doesnt fit your ideology, but this does not mean that you know what projection is, merely means you use it as a weapon while you project the idea of me projecting onto you.  Projection is a mechanism you use to decieve yourself in order to win arguments based on internalized beliefs that are not in harmony with your experience.  Ive already pointed out youre lying to yourself and everyone else by claiming you dont exist yet your ego makes value judgements and seeks to gain a "better" life than it already has.  That is not the sign of an enlightened person, or an awakened person, its the sign of a liar who has taken on a belief system.  

[kurt]

2 hours ago, Martin123 said:

'But you're waaayyy too quick to judge.

No, Im not judging, Im using my mind to point out your bullshit, and you think you know xyz where you actually dont.  if you want to disengage your critical mind for the sake of your childish egalitarian emotional psychotherapy bullshit, then be my guest.  But be warned, it wont get you anywhere except running around in circles labelling people "narcissists" and "judgemental" because the call you an idiot.  You are an idiot, and the reason you are is because you are attached to things that are not of your experience, thats an idiot.  Consciousness evolved language so we can call idiots what they are.  Until you learn to grow up and stop using big words that you know very little about, then you remain an idiot.  Sorry about that.

[kurt]

2 hours ago, CreativeInertia said:

@kurt  I am just wondering what would you suggest for a person pursuing enlightenment? focus on the practice instead of the "ideal"? and let's say in one point or another I "reach" enlightenment? you suggest continuing with your ingrained habits and beliefs (which from what I understand still exist.. although not taken seriously) and letting things unfold? 

You still have to make choices (maybe you will say it's not you who is making them, but regardless) - be healthy/be unhealthy, stay in a certain career/find a new career, focus on improving the world/ focus on living your life without concern for the world

and I also feel that although the sage is an ideal, it still makes the highest impact on people in terms of reducing suffering (that's what great teachers do, right?). You would probably say that people's suffering is an illusion. but let  me assure you my suffering is very, very real for me. and for other people. couldn't you, as someone who've probably experienced tough times and suffering in his life emphathise with it? 

You got to understand that most these ideals are born of ignorance based on egoic differentiations and are nothing to do with reality.  Reality is nondualistic, a bank robber is the same as an enlightened mahatma.  Have goals by all means, do what you are blessed to do, but leos ideas are not based on functional ability, they are based on developing character traits that only exist in the egoic mind and are not actually real.  Thats why they are absurd, because they are the ego romanticizing enlightenment.  A real mahatma would laugh at this because its delusion.

Suffering is not an illusion, its self inflicted because of the ego.  But the suffering does not come from not being perfect, it comes from the ego trying to BE perfect, and making differentiations that are not actually there.

Empathy is a delusion,  sorry but it is.  Adults understand that people live and die,  why would a mahatma leave his bliss to get upset about things he has no control over.  Ideals of compassion and emotional empathy are delusions based on chopping reality up into bits and trying to control reality.  This is not enlightenment, its boo hoo bullshit of the "grown up" inner child who is conditioned to believe in compassion and empathy.   

Edited December 11, 2016 by kurt

[CreativeInertia]

@kurt  Ok thanks for the clarification! 

 

[stevegan928]

12 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

If you want to be an enlightened slob who works at 7/11, up to you, but you ain't ever gonna be even close to the highest degrees of consciousness available, or a good human being. You're gonna be a half-enlightened Zen-devil who thinks he knows it all living in his mom's basement, jerking off in the dark.

romantically i love the idea of that for some reason. just to think some random asshole cashier holds the wisdom i'm searching for. 

[CreativeInertia]

@kurt It seems very cold and calculated. and selfish (from the outside, i don't mean ego/no ego)

Why do some enlightened people teach, act with compassion towards people, and others don't?

I think it is arbitrary and depends mainly on the personality of the person - how he was raised. Did his parents teach him about doing good (which is arbitary, but so is not doing good or doing bad) . Leo is trying to teach us the values of compassion and contribution, because practically this will mean a better world (more teachers, compassion, less conflict, less suffering). if a 100 people get enlightened, and they were thought to do good, then it is better (== less suffering, more fullfillment) for society. If a 100 people get enlightened, and they don't teach, they offend people, harm people, become criminals, this will be worse for society (more collective suffering).

It's all about the greater good.

Yes, it's all arbitrary, neutral and unimportant. But the question is - why not? why do the opposite? why not do good? you have insights from your egoic past - references of pain, tragedy, toxicity. so why not help people? why not be an effective teacher (= sage) who changes the life of many people for the better?

And why wouldn't you teach and help people and act with compassion? why would you be a criminal? Yes, reality is neutral, nothing is good or bad. but we have to make choices. and the choice depends on arbitrary values and beliefs from our raising and society (and genetics).

Edited December 11, 2016 by CreativeInertia

[Bebop]

36 minutes ago, kurt said:

I have come to my understanding through my own experience and doing the work.  If Im "attached" to that just means that its working for me.  I was ready to commit suicide two years ago, and if it was not for my spiritual path i would not be here now.  Its going to take 20-30 years to become non attached to a system that saved me from taking my own life.  If you imagine that this is a case of just dropping all ideas then you are mistaken.  Ideas in the end release us from all ideas and identifications, in the end, not halfaway through, not just because some idiot on a website requests it of us because they want to win and disarm others by telling them they are identified with their path.  And not because i couldnt really give a toss about what you think you know about "enlightement" while you stand there and speak in a way that very clearly deomostrates that you have merely made a conceptual ideology of this work and that you are indeed not free, or do you see that your ego was an idea, because free people dont need to strive for a better happiness than what already is.  And yes, you can learn what projection is from one of leos videos and then use that as a weapon against anyone who doesnt fit your ideology, but this does not mean that you know what projection is, merely means you use it as a weapon while you project the idea of me projecting onto you.  Projection is a mechanism you use to decieve yourself in order to win arguments based on internalized beliefs that are not in harmony with your experience.  Ive already pointed out youre lying to yourself and everyone else by claiming you dont exist yet your ego makes value judgements and seeks to gain a "better" life than it already has.  That is not the sign of an enlightened person, or an awakened person, its the sign of a liar who has taken on a belief system.  

I was in the same situation that you were in, I was ready to take my life as well as I did not see a point to existence as I felt trapped in a human body that I did not want to be a part of. I'm sorry if you are not understanding where I am coming from but we are just going back and forth at this point in trying to explain the same thing. It wasn't until I had an enlightenment experience where I felt union with everything and I realized that my body and identity is just an illusion created by ego. The whole reason I'm on this path is to find a deeper meaning to this and help others find their way through their own suffering. Do you not want to help other people understand who they are?

[kurt]

7 minutes ago, CreativeInertia said:

@kurt It seems very cold and calculated. and selfish.

Delusion.  Youre full of delusion, thats why it seems cold to you. Once you understand that everything is the same then that is compassion itself.  Compassion is knowing that there is no difference between a lump of turd and a nugget of gold.  Yet the yogi does not take the turd to the bank - thats the functional aspect.  

Paths teach compassion because most people are so egoic that they could do with a little self development to get their minds quiet. But when you see that its all the same then you start to see that you ARE compassion, that compassion is not something you need to cultivate or do, only a person who has nutralized their ego understands that the bank robber is the same as them.  This does not mean you set out to heal the world, the world is already fine, it was YOU who had the problem with the world because you made these dualistic differentiations.

[kurt]

9 minutes ago, Bebop said:

I was in the same situation that you were in, I was ready to take my life as well as I did not see a point to existence as I felt trapped in a human body that I did not want to be a part of. I'm sorry if you are not understanding where I am coming from but we are just going back and forth at this point in trying to explain the same thing. It wasn't until I had an enlightenment experience where I felt union with everything and I realized that my body and identity is just an illusion created by ego. The whole reason I'm on this path is to find a deeper meaning to this and help others find their way through their own suffering. Do you not want to help other people understand who they are?

What?  Im actually here because I have a conditioning to argue.  Its not something I can let go of overnight.  But one day it will drop, and I wont be on here talking enlightenment.  Its impersonal, its not me doing this, its conditioning.  That takes a long time to get over and im watching how it agaitates my mind arguing with idiots who want to win arguments because they think they know something, or are here to "help" others out of "compassion".  It isnt compassion, its self serving to make yourself feel better. Otherwise you would not do it.  I do wish people would stop lying to themselves, but hey, that is my problem and one that i will get over one day - people lie to themselves, get over it kurt.

[kurt]

15 minutes ago, Bebop said:

I was in the same situation that you were in, I was ready to take my life as well as I did not see a point to existence as I felt trapped in a human body that I did not want to be a part of. I'm sorry if you are not understanding where I am coming from but we are just going back and forth at this point in trying to explain the same thing. It wasn't until I had an enlightenment experience where I felt union with everything and I realized that my body and identity is just an illusion created by ego. The whole reason I'm on this path is to find a deeper meaning to this and help others find their way through their own suffering. Do you not want to help other people understand who they are?

Find a deeper meaning?  LOL, there is no meaning.  Meaning is ego, youre still deluded by the ego but you cant see it.  Youre on here pretending to care or something, youre not actually liberated at all, you just think you are.

[CreativeInertia]

@kurt I think you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is not to focus on compassion, but rather focus on practice. compassion can happen or not happen. then when you "become" enlightened, your arbitrary choice of being compassionate will not come from the ego

 

Cultivating compassion pre-enlightenment can be egoic - I agree. but that's not what I've meant

 

and not cultivating compassion and focusing on something else can also be egoic. it all the same

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by CreativeInertia
removed caps so I don't get a ban :D

[kurt]

8 minutes ago, CreativeInertia said:

@kurt I think you misunderstood me. What I was trying to say is not to focus on compassion, but rather focus on practice. compassion can happen or not happen. then when you "become" enlightened, your arbitrary choice of being compassionate will not come from the ego

 

Cultivating compassion pre-enlightenment can be egoic - I agree. but that's not what I've meant

 

Enlightenment and being a teacher of making very dysfunctional people function according to societies expectations are different things.  The point is, a sage does not exist in reality, sages exist in Leos mind because of his conditioning.  We are sold these role models like the Buddha and Christ, but we dont even know if these people existed, let alone how they actually were.  Leo is subject to a subtle form of propaganda and is deluded by his own imagination.  

Therapists are fine for teaching compassion to a person who has not had much decent coaching.  We all need teaching, but at the high levels where its a pursuit of liberation, then the differentiation stops and the things that kept the partially sane person functioning are unravelled and discarded.  

I spent ten years "developing" myself with a psychotherapist and it nearly sent me to the nut house.  Its just a big fat ideal based on unsubstantiated theories.  

Spiritual purification practices undo all these values, because values are what cause suffering.  Values only exist for people who need rules, the enlightened person is working towards getting rid of all this crap.