Sage Mode

[Bebop]

6 minutes ago, kurt said:

Where did this come from?  Your imagination?  

He reminds me a lot of myself, of course I could be wrong in this regard. Like I said it can be hard to tell what a person's intentions are, but I'd like to say I've gotten good at reading people over the years

[Martin123]

@kurt

2 hours ago, kurt said:

Youre an idiot  

And you sure are mister ultraspiritual, mega-enlightenment pro, compassion spreading and love realizing NINJA.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Martin123

[Martin123]

@kurt But don't hesitate to criticize the person who seems to be the king of skeptics, has thousands of meditation hours under his belt, with different psychadelic experiences, and apparently someone who's done lots of research.

But heyy why stop there, also start calling people who disagree with you names.

[Martin123]

2 hours ago, kurt said:

 You cant have a neurotic Buddha.

Enlightenment doesn't fix all your neuroses. 
It's just a realization. That's why it can be attained at any time. But you can still be a jerk, bad with relationships, terrible at this and that. The only thing you gain is "detachment" from those issues. Which alleviates the emotional suffering. But the issues stay the same.
Your "human avatar" (I think that Leo used this term, I like it) - your ego, stay the same.
The only difference is that you no longer identify yourself as the ego.

[Leo Gura]

Those of ya'll that think that enlightenment means:

• No values
• No principles
• No passions
• No pursuit of mastery
• No goals
• No career
• No learning
• No training
• No education
• No hard work
• No planning
• No strategy
• No caring

Have a very silly notion of enlightenment.

If you do even a cursory review of all the greatest teachers and masters who've ever lived, from ancient to modern, you see they had: strong values, strong principles, strong purpose, fierce pursuit of mastery, clear and ambitious goals, careers, deeply learned, exceptionally well-trained, educated, and incredibly hard working. This isn't a projection. This is factually what their lives had.

Can you even imagine being a monk in a Zen temple and then they ring the gong for you to wake up at 4am for meditation and you say, "Nah... bro... I'm good. You know... I'm so enlightened now that waking up on time... I realize now that's just an illusion. It doesn't matter. Bro, just chill out. Let's sleep in today. Why you being so egotical? Forcing me to wake up at 4am? Don't you see? That's all ego."

You would get your ass beaten for such drivel. They would kick you out of bed and laugh you out of the temple.

Or can you imagine, you're in a Zen temple and you throw a soda can in the rock garden? And then say, "Oh, it's all just an illusion. Who cares? Only egos care about being so anally orderly and clean. Stop being egotistical."

You would get punched in the face. Shinzen Young told me how he got punched in the nose in the temple just from making sniffling noises during meditation when he had a cold.

Sounds like you haven't actually interacted with a single highly enlightened human being face-to-face, otherwise this position you take would look ridiculous. You would be too ashamed to even mouth it in their presence. It would be like meeting Jesus and pissing on his shoes.

When you're in the presence of a master, you instantly know it. He can stare through you like a tiger stares through a rabbit.

I know a monk who worked with Sasaki Roshi. Sasaki was a 100 year-old Zen master. He became a monk when he was a teen. Meditated every day for 90 years! When he was 104, he was still teaching. He had the flu, the doctors said he should be dead, and what was he doing? Holding week-long Dai-seshins to the max, sitting there with all his students, pushing them to the max to reach enlightenment, holding over 30 one-on-one instruction sessions per day! The students thought he was going to die in the middle of the retreat. He lived for years to come and died at 107, still touring and teaching with fiery purpose and passion.

Passion, values, principles, purpose, hard work, orderliness, cleanliness, hygiene, waking up on time, caring, compassion, morals -- they all fucking matter to a master. To a slob, maybe not.

It's your life, you can live it however you want. If you want to be an enlightened slob who works at 7/11, up to you, but you ain't ever gonna be even close to the highest degrees of consciousness available, or a good human being. You're gonna be a half-enlightened Zen-devil who thinks he knows it all living in his mom's basement, jerking off in the dark.

The only thing sadder than no enlightenment is a half-assed enlightenment masquerading as mastery.

[Mr Here and Now]

[Frogfucius]

You see, you keep putting these "masters" on a pedestal, like they're living a better life than anyone else. A true quote unquote "enlightened" person realizes that there is no enlightenment, and that there's no difference between a saint, some thieving bum who lives on the street, and a maggot or tapeworm. There is no consciousness, because we don't even know what the fuck consciousness even is.

The fact that you think there's a "good" human being, and that you equate slobbery to a 7/11 worker, just shows how much you label and categorize things. There are no labels. Reality just is. Yes, the Zen Master is sexy because he can withstand a lot of things most people can't. And he got there through training. But that doesn't make his life better than anyone else's, and he realizes that.

But we can continue working on some non-existent path that leads to nowhere. Hell, society has been leading us like that since we were born. First, grade school. Then college, then a job, then retirement, then you fucking die. Human life is manufactured to feel inauthentic and mundane.

Edited December 11, 2016 by Frogfucius

[kurt]

@Martin123 You have low self esteem.  

[kurt]

@Frogfucius Its not worth arguing with these delusional people.  They are collecting information about their realized comic book heroes and projecting all sorts of egoic value judgements onto them, like martin, cant see the normality of calling someone an idiot.  Thats a sign of a deluded person who feels worthless in himself and tries to make everyone else wrong.  This is insanity

[askdfjnak]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Can you even imagine being a monk in a Zen temple and then they ring the gong for you to wake up at 4am for meditation and you say, "Nah... bro... I'm good. You know... I'm so enlightened now that waking up on time... I realize now that's just an illusion. It doesn't matter. Bro, just chill out. Let's sleep in today. Why you being so egotical? Forcing me to wake up at 4am? Don't you see? That's all ego."

 

Here's an excerpt I took from the book called  The Training of the Zen Buddhist Monk by D.T. Suzuki 

 

In these modern times when environment by artificial means changes so rapidly, the very author of these changes finds it extremely difficult to adapt himself to them, and the result is the manifest growth of all kinds of neurotics. Is it not indeed refreshing then to find such examples as follows in the history of Zen?

Yen-t'ou Ch'üan-kuo (Ganto Kwatsu), a great Zen master of late T'ang, seeing Su-shan (Sozan) approach, fell soundly asleep. Shan came up to the master and stood by him, who, however, paid him no attention whatever. Shan gave one stroke to his chair. The master turned his head about and said, What do you want? Shan replied, O master, have a good sleep! So saying, he went off. The master laughed heartily: I have for these thirty years fooled with so many horses, and today I find myself kicked down by an ass!

 

 

While Tou-tzu I-ch'ing  was in the monastery presided over by Yüan-t'ung Hsiu, he never came up before the master to make inquiries about Zen, but went on all the time dozing. The chief director appealed to the master, saying: There is a monk in our Zendo who passes his time sleeping and doing nothing. He ought to be dealt with in accordance with the Regulations.

Hsiu: Who is that?

Director: Brother I-ch'ing.

Hsiu: Don't be hasty. Wait till I try him.

The master now took up his staff and went into the Hall.

Seeing the said monk dozing, he struck the floor with his staff and scolded him, saying: You cannot go on like this while consuming our rice.

Ch'ing: What do you want me to do then, O master?

Hsiu: Why do you not study Zen?

Ch'ing: When a man's stomach is already filled up, to what fine meal are you going to treat me?

Hsiu: Unfortunately, there is one who does not fully endorse you.

Ch'ing: What is the use of waiting for such endorsement?

Hsiu: Whom did you see before coming here?

Ch'ing: Fu-shan.

Hsiu: I was wondering how you came to be so stubbornly self-assuring.

So saying, the master took the hand of the sleepy monk, and smilingly left the Hall.

To reach this stage of understanding, however, is no easy task and will require an enormous amount of energy.

 

Edited December 11, 2016 by Marc Schinkel

[kurt]

8 hours ago, Martin123 said:

Enlightenment doesn't fix all your neuroses. 
It's just a realization. That's why it can be attained at any time. But you can still be a jerk, bad with relationships, terrible at this and that. The only thing you gain is "detachment" from those issues. Which alleviates the emotional suffering. But the issues stay the same.
Your "human avatar" (I think that Leo used this term, I like it) - your ego, stay the same.
The only difference is that you no longer identify yourself as the ego.

You are making this up.  Youre describing someone who had one awakening experience and the ego hijacked it and said "Im enlightened".  But thats not enlightenment.  Enlightenment is when awareness realizes that it never slept and that the person was just a thought, and that thought vanishes either immediately if the mind is purified, or it vanishes later, because thoughts come and go.  So the first scenario is called indirect knowledge where the ego "realizes the self" (which is false) and the later is direct knowledge where the self understands that it was never a person to begin with - which is enlightenment.  The enlightened mind is in harmony with life because there is nothing to gain or lose by going against life. So indeed there are no problems for an enlightened person, because all problems come from the ego ad its value judgements about life.  What you have done is listened to different opinions that sounded good on forums and now have a vision of what enlightenment is.  The ego can vanish with realization, because its not real,its a thought.  And yes, enlightenment means the end of neuroses because nobody can stop identifying with ego unless the mind is pufiried of delusions.  Its a natural state of just being ok with everything, and yes that also means calling people idiots, because if they are acting like idiots then its fine to call them one.  You only react to being called an idiot if there is a little person in there who was criticized and neglected as a child.  People in this world call each other idiots, and only egos have a problem with it. Get over it.  

Edited December 11, 2016 by kurt

[Bebop]

5 hours ago, Frogfucius said:

But we can continue working on some non-existent path that leads to nowhere. Hell, society has been leading us like that since we were born. First, grade school. Then college, then a job, then retirement, then you fucking die. Human life is manufactured to feel inauthentic and mundane.

Sure I agree with you on that, but let me ask you. Are you happy with the way society is? Is that the life that YOU want for yourself? Do you not have hopes and dreams? The whole point of enlightenment is to undo your social conditioning to live your life authentically. Yeah in the end this is all pointless and meaning but why not find a way to enjoy it while you are here 

[Martin123]

35 minutes ago, kurt said:

You are making this up.  Youre describing someone who had one awakening experience and the ego hijacked it and said "Im enlightened".  But thats not enlightenment.  Enlightenment is when awareness realizes that it never slept and that the person was just a thought, and that thought vanishes either immediately if the mind is purified, or it vanishes later, because thoughts come and go.  So the first scenario is called indirect knowledge where the ego "realizes the self" (which is false) and the later is direct knowledge where the self understands that it was never a person to begin with - which is enlightenment.  The enlightened mind is in harmony with life because there is nothing to gain or lose by going against life. So indeed there are no problems for an enlightened person, because all problems come from the ego ad its value judgements about life.  What you have done is listened to different opinions that sounded good on forums and now have a vision of what enlightenment is.  The ego can vanish with realization, because its not real,its a thought.  And yes, enlightenment means the end of neuroses because nobody can stop identifying with ego unless the mind is pufiried of delusions.  Its a natural state of just being ok with everything, and yes that also means calling people idiots, because if they are acting like idiots then its fine to call them one.  You only react to being called an idiot if there is a little person in there who was criticized and neglected as a child.  People in this world call each other idiots, and only egos have a problem with it. Get over it.  

Where u getting this shit ?? its golden. Keep going I love jokes in the morning.

[kurt]

3 minutes ago, Martin123 said:

Where u getting this shit ?? its golden. Keep going I love jokes in the morning.

Idiot

[Martin123]

@kurt oh u got me

[kurt]

Just now, Martin123 said:

@kurt oh u got me

Martin, youre an idiot.  Yogis dont spend 30 years in caves to become "detached from their neurosis"  Think about what you are saying, because its just beliefs based on a lack of understanding what enlightenment is.  "enlightenment" is not awakening

[kurt]

14 minutes ago, Bebop said:

Sure I agree with you on that, but let me ask you. Are you happy with the way society is? Is that the life that YOU want for yourself? Do you not have hopes and dreams? The whole point of enlightenment is to undo your social conditioning to live your life authentically. Yeah in the end this is all pointless and meaning but why not find a way to enjoy it while you are here 

No, its not.  Who is saying "society is not the way I want it to be" "my life is not the way I want it to be"  thats the ego.  Its clear to me that you are not awakened either, and you are an idiot, because youre speaking about things you dont have a clue about.  How can a "non existent" ego do what it wants and strive for a happiness greater than itself in the form of an external life situation?  You disclose yourself as a fool who is making this up as he goes along

[kurt]

5 hours ago, Frogfucius said:

You see, you keep putting these "masters" on a pedestal, like they're living a better life than anyone else. A true quote unquote "enlightened" person realizes that there is no enlightenment, and that there's no difference between a saint, some thieving bum who lives on the street, and a maggot or tapeworm. There is no consciousness, because we don't even know what the fuck consciousness even is.

The fact that you think there's a "good" human being, and that you equate slobbery to a 7/11 worker, just shows how much you label and categorize things. There are no labels. Reality just is. Yes, the Zen Master is sexy because he can withstand a lot of things most people can't. And he got there through training. But that doesn't make his life better than anyone else's, and he realizes that.

But we can continue working on some non-existent path that leads to nowhere. Hell, society has been leading us like that since we were born. First, grade school. Then college, then a job, then retirement, then you fucking die. Human life is manufactured to feel inauthentic and mundane.

Well said, you understand what this is about.  The ego looking from the outside in at its realized heores and buys into all the romanticizm about enlightenment is a sick ego indeed.  

[Martin123]

6 minutes ago, kurt said:

Martin, youre an idiot.  Yogis dont spend 30 years in caves to become "detached from their neurosis"  Think about what you are saying, because its just beliefs based on a lack of understanding what enlightenment is.  "enlightenment" is not awakening

I agree with the vast majority of what you're saying. But the arrogant, narcissistic glow coming out of your posts makes it worth a while. 

So go on, educate more on what enlightenment is and is not.

 

Neurosis after enlightenment could seem like it's not there anymore. And in a sense it isn't. It no longer causes suffering, and you don't act compulsively.

so we're not moving in the boundaries of the definition of neurosis I suppose.

However you still have that same pattern within yourself (it is biologically there). That's why spiritual purification doesn't equal enlightenment. Now when you reach enlightenment, it sure becomes easier (I'd imagine) to correct the pattern, because it no longer serves any purpose of identity. But it doesn't do it by itself.

It's not really possible to have emotional release of all your dysfunctional patterns at once. Imo body couldn't take that. You get dettached, and you continue (if you choose to) with dissolving neuroses.

[kurt]

9 hours ago, Martin123 said:

@kurt But don't hesitate to criticize the person who seems to be the king of skeptics, has thousands of meditation hours under his belt, with different psychadelic experiences, and apparently someone who's done lots of research.

But heyy why stop there, also start calling people who disagree with you names.

One more thing, idiot.  When you do the work yourself and you understand with first hand experience what purifying the mind means, you see that all of what Leos ideals are, just pipedreams, delusions, concepts.  They have nothing to do with an enlightened mind.  If even I with my small amount of experience in actually doing the work can see what this is, it means Leo is not doing the work.  He may be meditating, and taking psychedelics, but the intellectual knowledge has probably added more concepts and just deluded him in the process.  Studying the masters is not an enlightenment path, its a scholarly path, its got nothing to do with the enlightenment process.