Leo, what are your views on abortion?

[Opo]

@Preety_India Would you allow abortion if there wasn't rape, incest or a health condition?

[Carl-Richard]

Unless you believe that the soul is somehow damaged during an abortion (given a belief in reincarnation) or that it causes a lot of suffering, I think the final legitimate concern from an utilitarian, non-essentialist and non-reincarnation standpoint is that the fetus is somehow "robbed of life". In my opinion, this comes from an irrational impulse of anthropomorphization (although granted, the fetus is technically a human), in the sense that the fetus in its current state doesn't have a "life" yet in terms of immediate impact on and manifestation in the world (a sense of self, personality, interpersonal relationships, a carbon footprint etc.). On the other hand, there is reason why you hesitate pulling the plug on somebody on a life support. It isn't primarily due to the fear that you think they will suffer a painful death, but it's rather because you recognize that they're a fully "realized" being with a life. They have acquired attachments, experiences, identities, and they're emotionally invested in a story, and that is what is actually keeping you from wanting to end your own life.

Edited August 25, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, Stovo said:

It's interesting in the US that the abortion debate is such a big political divide. In England, pro-life people aren't really a thing, if they do exist it's very marginal and they never talk about it. 

Like I said, anti-abortion is mostly religious dogma.

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Opo said:

@Preety_India Would you allow abortion if there wasn't rape, incest or a health condition?

I wouldn't. I would want to know a legit reason as to why an abortion is necessitated, if a woman is not ready to be a mother for various reasons, it is still understandable. 

I'm not too dogmatic, in the sense, I'm not hell bent on preventing an abortion. 

Yet, I wouldn't want women just wanting to abort simply because they got pregnant. 

In the beginning stages, it is still understandable. But a late term would be a question of morality since the fetus is quite developed at this stage.. 

I still see it as killing. Sometimes killing can be for good reasons as in killing for self defense. 

Yet when it comes to abortion i find such killing ruthless to motherhood if there isn't a valid reason for it. 

Sometimes we cannot make decisions based on simplistic doctrine based logical morality. 

We have to place our hand on our chest and see if what we're doing really feels right or not intuitively or psychically. 

I use psychic reasoning, nothing to do with religion. 

So when I say I don't like abortion, it is not due to religion. 

I psychically feel as a woman that abortion must hurt a woman's heart. 

When a woman becomes a mother, she must feel something within her. Funny how men are supposed to decide how a woman feels as a woman. 

This would be akin to me dictating how a man feels when he becomes a father. Can I really?? 

My womanly Intuition tells me that the feminine in me finds abortion cruel.

Yet I'm open minded enough to consider situations where women feel free to abort due to legit reasons 

 

Otherwise it really appears insane, cruel, unwomanly, ruthless and so not how an expectant mother should feel. 

Who puts this toxic wasteful ideas into a woman's head? 

 

[Preety_India]

@Emerald I would request your opinion on whatever I've written above in terms of a woman's perspective on abortion. I don't find abortion positive. Like as a fully grown woman I find that it contradicts my woman instinct very much.. Of course it doesn't mean that a woman should be pressured to have a child.

Am I abnormal for feeling that abortion does not feel right to me on the inside, even without considering religion? 

 

[Nos7algiK]

@Preety_India When it comes to views on abortion. I've been proven time and time again women have the most radical ideas on it. I don't mean those that are against it. I'm talking about those that are for it or don't care either way. I can't even count the number of women who have absolutely zero compassion for the life that was in them or would be in them and the extent they went to so they no longer were pregnant. How they would talk about it as if it was some joke.  The only regret they had about getting pregnant was the toll that would effect the body after the abortion. I can understand why they have the most radical views considering what having a child does to the body and some people aren't willing to accept that let along the responsibility that comes after.

When I was younger I always believed there was some type of maternal instinct that would link a women to their unborn child to the point where they would be even irrational and still have a child under horrible conditions. But, I've learned that there is a much much more powerful force than maternal instincts and it's within all of us. That is called self preservation. Obviously what I said doesn't apply to everyone, but it's a bit disheartening how many view it this way.

Of course I've seen women who felt the exact opposite ways and put themselves and the child in a horrible situation because they didn't want the guilt of killing it or giving it away. There is also those that take having children just fine or as fine as they can I should say, but that goes without saying.

[Willie]

18 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Of course it doesn't mean that a woman should be pressured to have a child.

bingo

[Jennjenn]

When asked about abortions everyone should say “it’s none of my business.” Roe v. Wade said women have the right to PRIVACY, which means it’s an individual decision that should be taken amongst  the woman and her doctors on a case by case basis. Or do you also need to have opinions about every other medical treatment. Stop it. 

[Nos7algiK]

24 minutes ago, Jennjenn said:

When asked about abortions everyone should say “it’s none of my business.” Roe v. Wade said women have the right to PRIVACY, which means it’s an individual decision that should be taken amongst  the woman and her doctors on a case by case basis. Or do you also need to have opinions about every other medical treatment. Stop it. 

Disagree fully. As you believe a woman is entitled on what she does with her body. Everyone else is entitled to hold an opinion on whatever they wish as well. I personally don't care what people do with their bodies and believe it is their choice, but it would be both biased and ignorant to not give others that right as well. People are fully free to make it all of their business if they wish. I mean.., male abortion doctors literally make it their business lol.

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Jennjenn said:

When asked about abortions everyone should say “it’s none of my business.” Roe v. Wade said women have the right to PRIVACY, which means it’s an individual decision that should be taken amongst  the woman and her doctors on a case by case basis. Or do you also need to have opinions about every other medical treatment. Stop it. 

Not so fast. All laws regulate and restrict some portion of your business. We are a community so it is our business.

Are you not okay with men digging up and eating the corpses of children? Well, you should say "It's none of my business."

[Preety_India]

This question has always boggled my mind in deep and emotional ways.. 

To what extent should a woman be given the reproductive right to her own body? 

To what extent should society hold this right from her? 

Its a spiritual question. 

Is it spiritually right to let her decide it completely on her own? 

Is it spiritually right for us to decide what's good for her and her body and child?

Motherhood to me is extremely close to spirituality because only a mother understands her child. 

In this age of new found misogyny, how much of the sacredness of motherhood will be annihilated?

These questions create intense spiritual conflict and turmoil. 

Women saying it's their business invokes images of women abusing their own children. 

Men saying it's their business invokes images of forced marriages, rape, forced abortions and exploiting women as baby production machines giving birth to premature unhealthy children. 

Neither a man nor a woman can be trusted. 

Men have a vital role here, so do women. 

 

[Nos7algiK]

@Preety_India All those questions have many answers to them depending on who is answering. But, if I was to answer most of those I would say "You are not entitled to anything, yet you are entitled to everything." This paradox is caused by the varying entitlement people have and how they will eventually cross and contradict each other. People have their own personal views and reasons, many of them valid, yet there is no concrete answer. I'd say the closest answer is to allow other's to have their opinions, even if some of them seem downright evil and/or ignorant.

Spirituality, it doesn't matter, it's just part of your imagination. But, I know you don't like those non-dual answers.

In a more personal sense of spirituality it's again relative to who is perceiving it. Ultimately there will be people who fully see it as a sin to kill an unborn baby. Other's will see it as just part of a greater karmatic plan or something of that sorts. Neither is more or less spiritual in the grand scheme of things. 

Personally, I would say whatever happens is the spiritually right thing. If that's her making her own decision to keep it or not. Her being influenced by an outside party to keep it or not. The government or some regulations stepping in to tell her what to do. All of this, I believe is what was meant to happen. The sin isn't the one that is taking the action of abortion, but those that attempt to change the natural flow or judge to harshly on how that aspect of consciousness is forming itself. This doesn't mean we can't hold our own preferences though.

 

18 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Motherhood to me is extremely close to spirituality because only a mother understands her child. 

Disagree with only a mother understands her child. I believe ideas like this are extremally toxic and only cause division. There are a few ways to see it. Just because you "create" something does not mean you understand it.  Just because you don't "create" something, doesn't mean you can't understand it. We are all One, you can understand anything within the One, because it's you lol.

 

25 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

These questions create intense spiritual conflict and turmoil. 

Women saying it's their business invokes images of women abusing their own children. 

Men saying it's their business invokes images of forced marriages, rape, forced abortions and exploiting women as baby production machines giving birth to premature unhealthy children. 

 

Just go with how you personally feel on it all. Not because you see the evil's in the world and wish to be a flame in the darkness. But, because your own inner voice tells you that is the right thing to do. You are aware of yourself enough to make the right spiritual decisions if/when the time comes. Have that faith in yourself holds all those answer to the questions you presented. Even if those answers are only shown by your actions alone.

 

[Stovo]

@Endangered-EGO no we have big political divides. Brexit was like a civil war. 

There's just very few pro lifers here. 

[_Archangel_]

2 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Its a spiritual question. 

@Preety_India This is mostly a cultural question. The only reason you are against abortion is because you are embedded in a society and culural environment that don't look kindly upon abortion.

[Enlighten]

8 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

Ursula von der Leyen

Ah. The hottie with 7 kids.

 

[Preety_India]

4 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

@Preety_India This is mostly a cultural question. The only reason you are against abortion is because you are embedded in a society and culural environment that don't look kindly upon abortion.

My culture is free when it comes to abortion. My culture is not Christian. So it's not a cultural thing for me.

We don't have any pro life in our country because we're liberal with abortion. 

For me it's a personal thing 

 

[Enlighten]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

My culture is free when it comes to abortion. My culture is not Christian.

Your culture probably hates female fetuses more than anything. The Gender ratio is a good example of that.

Red represents girls are more. Blue represents boys are more (Age 15 and under)

 

[Preety_India]

@Enlighten yes females are hated in our country. Female abortion is the most common thing in my country. 

 

[Enlighten]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

Female abortion is the most common thing in my country. 

Then how is it a 'free culture' ?

 

7 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

My culture is free when it comes to abortion. My culture is not Christian.

 

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Enlighten said:

Then how is it a 'free culture' ?

 

 

Free in the sense there is no restrictions on abortion or abortion is not considered a sin, the way it is in Christian societies.