How can we trust a psychedelic experience?

[Leo Gura]

If you think there is a difference between psychedelic and non-psychedelic insights or experience -- that is the delusion.

No such duality could exist.

To say you don't trust psychedelics is to say you don't trust experience. In which case, you cannot trust anything, since there is nothing but experience. Trust itself is an experience. So is wrongness and delusion. So is doubt and science.

[taotemu]

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

If you think there is a difference between psychedelic and non-psychedelic insights or experience -- that is the delusion.

No such duality could exist.

To say you don't trust psychedelics is to say you don't trust experience. In which case, you cannot trust anything, since there is nothing but experience. Trust itself is an experience. So is wrongness and delusion. So is doubt and science.

So are you suggesting that altering the chemistry of the brain with a drug can not create delusional experiences?  So are all experiences equally true?  If this is the case then why investigate anything?  Why not just accept my experience of the Earth being flat as the truth?  Or my experience as a separate being from everyone else?  This just seems so nihilistic.  Clearly not all experiences are equally real.  There are magic tricks, illusions and psychosis.  if we can recognize that delusion is possible, how do we investigate in such a way to minimize those delusions? 

For me the best I have been able to do is to equate the psychedelic experience as similar to a dream.  They can seem profoundly real, yet there is a recognition that they act as pointers to a truth beyond the experience itself in the same way myth does. 

[ZzzleepingBear]

38 minutes ago, taotemu said:

I can certainly see the utility of this approach.  I just would abandon the creation of a metaphysics based on these experiences.  I see psychedelic insights more like dreams or myths.  They have tremendous utility and point to truth, but do not pretend to be "True".  What I see as such a common mistake is when people take these mythological dream like states and draw conclusions about the very nature of reality itself.

I agree with this description. To see it like dreams feels like the most grounded yet effective way to go about it, inorder to not create unnecessary delusions from one's past experiences out of assumption.

[Consilience]

48 minutes ago, taotemu said:

Why not just accept my experience of the Earth being flat as the truth?

This is not an experience, this an interpretation of experience. 

48 minutes ago, taotemu said:

So are you suggesting that altering the chemistry of the brain with a drug can not create delusional experiences?  So are all experiences equally true?  If this is the case then why investigate anything? 

In Zen, just sitting is complete reality. 

49 minutes ago, taotemu said:

Or my experience as a separate being from everyone else? 

This is not an experience, this is an interpretation of experience. 

50 minutes ago, taotemu said:

This just seems so nihilistic.  Clearly not all experiences are equally real.

This depends on your definition of real. Real is what is ACTUALLY going on, experientially, directly, as it IS. THIS. In this way, all experiences are equally real. 

51 minutes ago, taotemu said:

There are magic tricks, illusions and psychosis.  if we can recognize that delusion is possible, how do we investigate in such a way to minimize those delusions?

By recognizing when the mind is interpreting reality vs. directly observing reality. Direct observation = truth/real.

52 minutes ago, taotemu said:

They can seem profoundly real, yet there is a recognition that they act as pointers to a truth beyond the experience itself in the same way myth does. 

Their actuality is profoundly real. The way one interprets the experiences and builds metaphysical models is relative. Look into this concept from Janism, "Anekantavada"

[Jakuchu]

you are conscious that it is real, it's that simple. it is very hard to delude yourself when you are super-conscious. it's like a bank robber trying to rob a bank with bright lights, cameras, alarm, police etc. everywhere 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Jakuchu

[Space]

3 hours ago, taotemu said:

I do apply the same skepticism to the sober state, which lead me to psychedelics.  When I listen to Terence McKenna talk about aliens and inter-dimensional beings it seems he has abandoned any skepticism about an experience that is induced by a drug.  Reading many of the posts on this forum I feel the same. 

I have had profound experiences on psychedelics but I remain skeptical about how "real" they were.  I know how easy it is for the mind to be fooled.

There is a big difference between seeing aliens/inter-dimensional beings, and then Pure Eternal Infinity, even though both might be realised after taking a psychedelic.

Consider that it's possible to take a psychedelic and be 100% absolutely certain that what was realised is Absolutely True, without a single speck of doubt or confusion. Crystal clear perfect direct consciousness. Unmistakable. Undoubtable. Undeniable. This is possible for you. 

If you remain skeptical, and if you are still thinking in terms of 'how real something was', you haven't gone anywhere near far enough. Direct Consciousness is not in the realm of whether something is 'real' or not. It is totally different, totally beyond any of that.

Also consider that its possible to take a psychedelic and then become directly conscious without a shadow of doubt that the notion of you taking a psychedelic at some point in the past which led to having profound realisations is 100% invented from nothing by you, and that no psychedelic could ever be the 'cause' of a Direct Consciousness a.k.a Eternal Infinity. 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, taotemu said:

So are you suggesting that altering the chemistry of the brain with a drug can not create delusional experiences?

You're in a delusional experience right now.

All experiences are mediated by chemistry. The notion of "altering chemistry" is silly, since all chemistry is relative with one default chemistry.

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So are all experiences equally true?

All experience is Absolute Truth.

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If this is the case then why investigate anything?  Why not just accept my experience of the Earth being flat as the truth? 

You are confusing the absolute truth of Being vs the relative truths of conceptual stuff. Falsehood only exists at the conceptual level. You are lost inside your own mind.

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Or my experience as a separate being from everyone else?  This just seems so nihilistic.  Clearly not all experiences are equally real.

All experience is equally real, but you are confused about what the experience is or represents.

The experience of a flatearther is as real as any other experience, but the flat earth is a concept.

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 There are magic tricks, illusions and psychosis.  if we can recognize that delusion is possible, how do we investigate in such a way to minimize those delusions? 

"Delusion" is a relative notion. Those things are delusions relative to your arbitrary standards.

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For me the best I have been able to do is to equate the psychedelic experience as similar to a dream.  They can seem profoundly real, yet there is a recognition that they act as pointers to a truth beyond the experience itself in the same way myth does. 

You do not understand what you are talking about.

EVERYTHING is a dream. Reality is completely imaginary and it does not exist in any form without imagination.

You are trying to pick and choose between imaginary grounds for reality, and this will always fail since reality is groundless.

You are simply failing to be skeptical about your own experience. You take it for granted that your conception of reality correct. But it isn't. You have misused skepticism as I have warned about many times.

[wildflower]

I understand what your saying, how can we create any absolute view from any relative experience. Well the only absolute view is absolutely nothing.

So all these people playing language games on the forum are just playing games.

The problem of our concern is one of utility. What context or paradigm serves the highest utility to give the best experiences (peace, connectedness, joy) possible as a human. This is where the 8 fold path or 8 part model from the Buddha is helpful

[taotemu]

14 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You're in a delusional experience right now.

All experiences are mediated by chemistry. The notion of "altering chemistry" is silly, since all chemistry is relative with one default chemistry.

I have no doubt that my experience is delusional.  That is the whole point I'm trying to make.  How can we best dissolve delusion?

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All experience is Absolute Truth.

I completely reject the notion that all experience is Absolute Truth.  The pure subjective is NOT Absolute Truth.  It is true that the experience is being experienced if that is what you mean.  But that is useless in any honest investigation or seeking of Truth. 

20 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You are confusing the absolute truth of Being vs the relative truths of conceptual stuff. Falsehood only exists at the conceptual level. You are lost inside your own mind.

I am lost in my own mind.  As are you.  As are we all.  But that fact isn't helpful in dispelling delusion.  We can't escape mind... Well I suppose we can in ego death.  But there is no metaphysics there.  Truth may be naked to pure consciousness.  Great.  Now what, once we are back into the world of ego, time and space?  Building a metaphysics around this experience is absurd.  The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao.  Whereof we can not speak, thereof we must be silent.  Quit trying to build metaphysics around experiences beyond language time and space.

24 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

All experience is equally real, but you are confused about what the experience is or represents.

The experience of a flatearther is as real as any other experience, but the flat earth is a concept.

"Delusion" is a relative notion. Those things are delusions relative to your arbitrary standards.

Again, I grant you that all experiences are real in that they are being experienced.  What they represent is the world we live in.  A schizophrenics experience of life is their experience, clearly.  That is a tautology.  However, their experience is not an accurate reflection of the underlying reality.  Not to acknowledge this is a huge problem. 

28 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You do not understand what you are talking about.

EVERYTHING is a dream. Reality is completely imaginary and it does not exist in any form without imagination.

You are trying to pick and choose between imaginary grounds for reality, and this will always fail since reality is groundless.

Well, that is pretty arrogant.  I understand very well what I am talking about.  Perhaps you are projecting onto me your own confusion?

There is SO much nuance and layers to this idea of everything being a dream.  Certainly this holds true in Hindu and Buddhist mythology.  But within the dream is delusion.  The dream has it's own structure, rules and laws (physics).  This isn't OUR dream.  It is the dream of Brahman, or God.  To just say it is all a dream implies that within the dream everything is up for grabs and there is no order or structure, which is clearly not the case.  Delusion exists.  You made it pretty clear that you think I'm delusional.  How can you reconcile that statement with the fact that my experience is Absolutely True?

[taotemu]

53 minutes ago, wildflower said:

I understand what your saying, how can we create any absolute view from any relative experience. Well the only absolute view is absolutely nothing.

So all these people playing language games on the forum are just playing games.

The problem of our concern is one of utility. What context or paradigm serves the highest utility to give the best experiences (peace, connectedness, joy) possible as a human. This is where the 8 fold path or 8 part model from the Buddha is helpful

I can certainly see this.  Language games.  Wittgenstein deconstructed all of Western Philosophy by recognizing how language is used to create philosophical confusion.  It seems the only honest thing to say about this topic is that language can not possibly grasp the psychedelic experience.  It is beyond Truth and Falsehood.  I'm OK with the mystery.  Utility is probably the only objective measure of their effects.

[Consilience]

15 minutes ago, taotemu said:

I completely reject the notion that all experience is Absolute Truth.  The pure subjective is NOT Absolute Truth.  It is true that the experience is being experienced if that is what you mean.  But that is useless in any honest investigation or seeking of Truth. 

This is where you’re lost. All experience, the ‘isness’ of whatever is appearing, IS absolute truth as what is.
 

The next step is becoming conscious of its true nature, it is experiencing ‘isness’ so directly you experience its empty nature. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Consilience

[Javfly33]

6 hours ago, roopepa said:

Psychedelics are really not 'drugs' to be honest. The moment the molecules bind to the receptors, magic.

 

How you think other " real drugs" work? Lmao

[Leo Gura]

30 minutes ago, taotemu said:

I have no doubt that my experience is delusional.  That is the whole point I'm trying to make.  How can we best dissolve delusion?

Deconstruct your experience.

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I completely reject the notion that all experience is Absolute Truth.  The pure subjective is NOT Absolute Truth.

Therein lies your delusion.

You are not willing to question that assumption, hence you will never realize Absolute Truth.

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I am lost in my own mind.  As are you.

I am conscious of Absolute Truth. You are not. Don't confuse our situations.

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Now what, once we are back into the world of ego, time and space?  Building a metaphysics around this experience is absurd.  The Tao that can be spoken of is not the eternal Tao.  Whereof we can not speak, thereof we must be silent.  Quit trying to build metaphysics around experiences beyond language time and space.

Stop bullshitting and start doing spiritual work.

Spirituality is the art of bringing the Absolute down into the realm of the relative.

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However, their experience is not an accurate reflection of the underlying reality.

It is not an accurate reflection of your imagined reality. This is true.

But there is no underlying reality. Objectivity is imaginary.

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Well, that is pretty arrogant. 

Your position is the arrogant one.

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I understand very well what I am talking about.

Obviously you don't, since you aren't conscious of what Truth is.

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There is SO much nuance and layers to this idea of everything being a dream.  Certainly this holds true in Hindu and Buddhist mythology.  But within the dream is delusion.  The dream has it's own structure, rules and laws (physics).  This isn't OUR dream.  It is the dream of Brahman, or God.

YOU are God. It is your dream.

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To just say it is all a dream implies that within the dream everything is up for grabs

It doesn't imply that.

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Delusion exists.  You made it pretty clear that you think I'm delusional.  How can you reconcile that statement with the fact that my experience is Absolutely True?

Delusion is relative. And you are absolutely deluded

[Blackhawk]

@Leo Gura I wish you would sometime go all-in with this kind of stuff:

"Everything you perceive right now is a dream. Including me.

You are just talking to yourself now.

I am you.

I'm just a part of your dream.

You are just imagining that I'm a separate conscious entity.

You are dreaming up me and everything else right now.

There is no one else.

There is only You.

You are God.

You are this.

This is it."

[roopepa]

41 minutes ago, Javfly33 said:

How you think other " real drugs" work? Lmao

When you drink alcohol, you don't realize that brains don't exist and the whole substance is just imagination.

[JayySur]

@Blackhawk That sounds nice, but not everyone is ready to hear it so bluntly. 
 

It’s like trying to force a child to learn algebra when they haven’t even learned arithmetics yet.

[Blackhawk]

3 minutes ago, JayySur said:

@Blackhawk That sounds nice, but not everyone is ready to hear it so bluntly. 
 

It’s like trying to force a child to learn algebra when they haven’t even learned arithmetics yet.

But I am.

I want Leo to repeat that stuff to me over and over again until I get a complete mental breakdown, I want to get my entire reality destroyed. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Blackhawk

[taotemu]

@Leo Gura Thanks for showing me the level of your actualization.  It is clear you are out of your league here.  You have had some profound insights and then jumped into teaching them without the maturity or time to fully integrate them into your life or really spend the time to understand what they actually mean.  I recognize you now.  You are teaching what you are trying to learn yourself.  I've seen this before.  I've done this before.  I've been doing spiritual work longer than you have been alive.  It is clear to me now that you are embroiled in ego and duality and it flies in the face of what you teach, and likely what you have actually experienced. 

I suppose I needed to see it for myself.  I like to give people the benefit of the doubt.  But your critics are right about you.  You are just a guy who took a shit ton of psychedelics, chasing enlightenment, parrot other masters and are now trapped in a messiah complex. However, you have only had drug experiences.  Beware of unearned wisdom.  This is dangerous stuff because you are not grounded.  You are in a fragile state.  You project on to me and you don't even see it.  You have no idea who I am or what I know.  I just hope you are able to integrate and ground your experiences because you do have a lot to offer the world once you are able to do so.

Edited August 24, 2021 by taotemu

[Leo Gura]

@taotemu You play a mean mind game. Watch out, if you carry on like this you may never realize Truth.

Maybe I have a messiah complex.

Or maybe you're just not conscious of what Truth is.

[The0Self]

I don’t know about the earlier stages, but as for what can eventually happen with psychedelics? Trust? What even would that mean? As if trust would have any additional effect on the timeless absolute realization that, not only is what you really are not finite, but there’s no separation of any kind at all.