How can we trust a psychedelic experience?

[taotemu]

How do we trust that the experiences and feelings under the influence of psychedelics are real?   I know they feel very real.  I know they are powerful and amazing.  I know they can be profoundly loving and positive.  But to me it seems a bit of a leap to build a whole metaphysics around a drugged state of mind.

[Blackhawk]

I don't think you can.

But some people do it anyway..

Edited August 23, 2021 by Blackhawk

[impulse9]

It's not a drugged state of mind at all. It's the normal state of mind. The ego is a drugged state of mind.

[Nos7algiK]

Trust it as much as you trust a sand castle. It was "real" the moment it happened. But as time passes, it perishes or shifts into a new "truth". What is, is not what was.

Edited August 23, 2021 by Nos7algiK

[impulse9]

The mind is like water, it takes shapes of the container. Our normal container is the boundaries set up by our physiology, our culture, our environment. Psychedelics release and melt these boundaries so now your mind is able to self-form, creating any number of experiences. Therefore any experience you have on psychedelics is as real as any other "real" thing. In fact it usually feels more real than the real you are normally familiar with. Or it can feel less real. The mind has capacity for infinite experiences. How you define real is just one of your boundaries.

[taotemu]

22 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

It's not a drugged state of mind at all. It's the normal state of mind. The ego is a drugged state of mind.

The ego is the natural state of mind.  That isn't saying it is who we really are, or that it is ever fundamentally real, but clearly the egoic mind is the natural state of the human condition.  I don't have to wake up each morning and take a drug to experience my ego.  It is the default.

 

[impulse9]

It's only default because it's programmed into us from young age. The ego is like a filter that only allows certain experiences to pass through. What psychedelics do is they pull that filter away temporarily, letting the full spectrum of experience in. The ego experience is about as far from real as it gets, it even feels fake if you really go deep down into it and contemplate it. There's a strange feeling of fakeness about ordinary everyday experience. Psychedelics on the other hand are on another level, they are more real. They crank your awareness so high that you can't ignore it anymore.

Btw, this doesn't mean that the ego experience is wrong. Not at all. It's simply one way of looking at the universe. The shortcoming of the ego is realizing the absolute infinity of available perspectives. The ego is like a horse, if it's wild you're gonna have a lot of problems with it. If it's tame, it's going to serve as your best friend. The main point is not mistaking the ego for your true self, which far transcends it.

Edited August 23, 2021 by impulse9

[taotemu]

8 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

It's only default because it's programmed into us from young age. The ego is like a filter that only allows certain experiences to pass through. What psychedelics do is they pull that filter away temporarily, letting the full spectrum of experience in. The ego experience is about as far from real as it gets, it even feels fake if you really go deep down into it and contemplate it. There's a strange feeling of fakeness about ordinary everyday experience. Psychedelics on the other hand are on another level, they are more real. They crank your awareness so high that you can't ignore it anymore.

I think it has less to do with our programming as it is built into be a human.  This "programming" has existed pretty much through all of human history with only a few exceptions.  Mystics, sages and seers have had to deal with the power of the human ego for eons.  Clearly, the ego is the default state of the human condition.

I know what psychedelics feel like.  I've taken a lot of them.  I know they can feel more real than real.  But I'm also acutely aware of how clever we are at deluding ourselves.  I highly value many of my psychedelic experiences.  They clearly have a pragmatic value of making my sober life less anxious, fearful and stressed.  I feel more deeply connected to the world and everyone in it.  I'm not suggesting that psychedelics can't have a lot of value in peoples lives.  But it is quite a leap to go from that to an entire metaphysics of reality based on these experiences. 

Given how easily we can fool ourselves, I personally need more than profound experiences under the influence of a drug to draw conclusions about the very nature of reality. 

[impulse9]

It's weirder than that. You had direct access to the psychedelic state of mind as a toddler. Our society trains us to gradually but surely construct a mental cage for ourselves, one that prevents magic to come through. It's so successful in training us that we forget about magic along the way.

[JayySur]

Is the “you” you believe yourself to be completely (or at least substantially) gone anytime during the experience?

[impulse9]

@JayySur A strong psychedelic will melt the ego like ice cream on a hot sidewalk, to the point where you forget that you are even human.

[Ry4n]

Whatever "truth" they reveal....can I recognise that same truth in this very moment? Perhaps not to the same degree, but to SOME degree? Without that I can only hope and believe. 

[Adamq8]

The thing is, it is not really easy to use language when speaking about certain things one can realize on psychedelics, truth will make itself known in an instant, transcending any notion of a mind coming to an "understanding" it is a whole different ball game then a psychonaut tripping and coming up with theories about aliens and multiverses, they can ofcourse be valid but Truth is not a theory or a relative knowledge.

Both mind and ego etc is put into the background and truth comes ROARING destroying any notion one had about awakening prior to it happening.

It is obvious for you right now that you exist, not speaking about the false identification with thoughts about a "me" but the sense of existing, you cant doubt it, and the same goes for Truth.

Doubt and uncertainty etc might arise when the trip is over because it is completly UNBELIEVABLE that it is true, but yet it is.

Source recognizing itself is transcendent of time,speed,knowledge,theory and all other relative notions that works in our world.

If I get to use one word about it, it would be Grace

[ZzzleepingBear]

7 hours ago, taotemu said:

How do we trust that the experiences and feelings under the influence of psychedelics are real?   I know they feel very real.  I know they are powerful and amazing.  I know they can be profoundly loving and positive.  But to me it seems a bit of a leap to build a whole metaphysics around a drugged state of mind.

I think the realness, is contained in your inspired inner motivation. And should not be mixed up with the realness that a physical wall provide in relation to your actuall body. After all, it is a body/mind experience to be human. But the motivation behind a certain action will in a sense always be more real than the physical boundaries that the world provide.

If you sort out and align your inner motivations and apply them in a good holistic use in relation to the physical world. Then you should get closer to what real means in a absolute sense, as in contrast with chasing tails and promises that are disguised under the lable future.

[Nahm]

15 hours ago, taotemu said:

How do we trust that the experiences and feelings under the influence of psychedelics are real?  

It’s not that there is a we and an experience and feelings in question of trustworthiness or realness. It’s that there isn’t. 

Quote

I know they feel very real. 

Not two. 

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I know they are powerful and amazing.  I know they can be profoundly loving and positive.  But to me it seems a bit of a leap to build a whole metaphysics around a drugged state of mind.

Right, then don’t. It is you which is powerful & amazing, and profoundly loving & positive. Not some drug, experience or reality. 

[roopepa]

Psychedelics are really not 'drugs' to be honest. The moment the molecules bind to the receptors, magic.

I sense and understand your doubt and certain fear. It's okay. No reason to be attached to this idea of psychedelics being some ultimate tool and that nothing else will 'get you there'. It feels off because it is off.

You might experience certain pressure on using psychedelics on this forum. It's okay if you don't feel ready. You don't ever have to use them again if you don't want to. Your wisdom is still valid. You are still valid.

[James12345]

15 hours ago, taotemu said:

How do we trust that the experiences and feelings under the influence of psychedelics are real?   I know they feel very real.  I know they are powerful and amazing.  I know they can be profoundly loving and positive.  But to me it seems a bit of a leap to build a whole metaphysics around a drugged state of mind.

As @Nahm said, psychedelics are the best ride in the so called duality. However, not even close the Truth or enlightenment.

[Consilience]

15 hours ago, taotemu said:

How do we trust that the experiences and feelings under the influence of psychedelics are real?   I know they feel very real.  I know they are powerful and amazing.  I know they can be profoundly loving and positive.  But to me it seems a bit of a leap to build a whole metaphysics around a drugged state of mind.

How can you trust your experiences within the sober as real? 

It seems like more than a bit of a leap to build a whole metaphysics around any state of mind. Why? Precisely because of the infinite range of possible mind states there are. So how are we gauging which ones are better, more accurate, more indicative of reality than others? 

The mistake of the mainstream science is to place so much authority on the sober state of mind, as though somehow the natural state we've all been given is 'the state' to make metaphysical conclusions about reality. Moreover, we then have to consider how much un-cognized mind state activities are influencing the ways we interpret and build stories around whatever perceptive experience is taking place, whether sober or tripping. This is why have a strong epistemological basis is critical for any kind of contemplative work, whether psychonautic or not. 

This is all to say, great that you're questioning, but make sure to apply that same skepticism to the sober mind. Point the questioning to the structure of mind itself, not one slice of content within all possible mind states, in my opinion. 

Edited August 23, 2021 by Consilience

[taotemu]

40 minutes ago, Consilience said:

This is all to say, great that you're questioning, but make sure to apply that same skepticism to the sober mind. Point the questioning to the structure of mind itself, not one slice of content within all possible mind states, in my opinion. 

I do apply the same skepticism to the sober state, which lead me to psychedelics.  When I listen to Terence McKenna talk about aliens and inter-dimensional beings it seems he has abandoned any skepticism about an experience that is induced by a drug.  Reading many of the posts on this forum I feel the same. 

I have had profound experiences on psychedelics but I remain skeptical about how "real" they were.  I know how easy it is for the mind to be fooled.

[taotemu]

9 hours ago, ZzzleepingBear said:

I think the realness, is contained in your inspired inner motivation. And should not be mixed up with the realness that a physical wall provide in relation to your actuall body. After all, it is a body/mind experience to be human. But the motivation behind a certain action will in a sense always be more real than the physical boundaries that the world provide.

If you sort out and align your inner motivations and apply them in a good holistic use in relation to the physical world. Then you should get closer to what real means in a absolute sense, as in contrast with chasing tails and promises that are disguised under the lable future.

I can certainly see the utility of this approach.  I just would abandon the creation of a metaphysics based on these experiences.  I see psychedelic insights more like dreams or myths.  They have tremendous utility and point to truth, but do not pretend to be "True".  What I see as such a common mistake is when people take these mythological dream like states and draw conclusions about the very nature of reality itself.