A "siddhi" is when a fool believes a liar

[Carl-Richard]

On 2021-8-19 at 1:55 PM, Nahm said:

You so funny God. Really crack me up. 

 

16 hours ago, Shmurda said:

Are you familiar with James Randi's Million dollar a paranormal prize? Why has this never been claimed?  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/One_Million_Dollar_Paranormal_Challenge

Tl;dr:  Just because you can't demonstrate a causal relationship in an experimental environment does not mean it cannot exist outside of that environment. Carl Sagan put it like this: "absence of evidence is not evidence of absence."

James Randi would never open his mind enough to actually study paranormal phenomenas. All he's got is his white beard and his reductionistic razor.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

11 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

@Shmurda I saw something from Tom Campbell saying that the price was claimed he just didnt deliver, not 100% sure about this tho

That was this video thumbnail:

If he actually said that, I think he was only making a point, not that Randi was shown anything.

[_Archangel_]

@Carl-Richard Good topic. Yet, i'm perplexed.

I get the change in setting, i get the pressure, i get the scientific method not being ideal in this situations.
But just HOW is it possible that not even ONE person has ever been able to use its powers in an experiment and willingly execute them?
There would be many noble reasons to do that.
Are Siddhis so aleatory and labile?

[Carl-Richard]

36 minutes ago, _Archangel_ said:

There would be many noble reasons to do that.

Yeah, but witch-hunts isn't just something you read about. There are many people in the world who do not approve of black magic. It's a sure way to get the holy mafia on your ass.

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, _Archangel_ said:

Are Siddhis so aleatory and labile?

As a scientist, I hear you. But let's be honest. Science is great for predicting outcomes, within the narrow band of human existence. What happens beyond that band? The more you stretch it, the weaker it becomes, until it finally snaps.

Einstein realized this. At the extremes, Newtonian mechanics start to fray. Instead of an objective cosmos, we realize that reality depends entirely on the perceiver.

Given that, what can we say about siddhis? Sure, we can try to replicate them within a lab, but what does that prove about reality, at the extremes of human existence? Science doesn't grok ultimate reality. Direct realization is the science of Self-awareness 

[prabhjot Kaur gill]

First of all, define what you mean by Real? If you define reality by what we see with the eyes is real then the so Called Riddhi-siddhis are unreal. But if you define reality by the perception of things, which is different for every being then yes they are "real". In my experience when you go deeper into your spiritual practise, your understanding of the nature of things reaches a certain level and you get endowed with certain powers such as the power to heal with your energy through hands, the power to forsee events/happenings, the power to create magic like illusions etc. Don't forget that all this comes as a result of infinite love for all beings and having the highest intensions in mind. But these are illusory as their very nature, don't ever get fooled by them, will definitely hinder your progress to the path if you started identifying with them. So far, I've reached the understanding that these are necessary to show a being who is super rigid with it's idea of reality and definitely not to abuse or thought of as fruits of labour after such hard work of spiritual practice. In conclusion, the body, the mind, the consciousness etc. everything is temporary. All the states of consciousness that we have collectively reached so far are also temporary and RIDDHI-SIDDHIs are just one part of those states of consciousness. Find out the absolute REALITY.

[_Archangel_]

Guys, honestly, these all seem weak justifications. and they don't stand on their feet.

@Carl-Richard Assuming i prove that i can levitate and want to help science understand my power, every sane government would put national protection over me. i'd be safe. Furthermore, if you conduct experiments in places in highly developed countries like Germany, Sweden or Japan the risk is similar to zero.

@Moksha one thing is to aknowledge the existence of abilities that can defy the currently known laws of physics and common limitations of humans.
another thing is understand the mechanics of these abilities.

I would argue that for science would be easy to quantify levitation or telekinesis or remote-hearing IF tangible.
Understanding their mechanism would be another pair of shoes.

 

[undeather]

Ok, lets engange with this topic rationally. 

What kind of evidence is there for "Siddhis" or "Psi phenomena"?
This topic is one of my favourites. To say it bluntly, there is a shitton of case reports about "weird" phenomena. Its overwhelming. Now, of course we have liars, carzy people,  minds playing tricks on themselves etc. - But I personally know too many upright, no bullshit people who have experienced stuff like this. Most notably, precognition and telepathy. Personally I havent experienced any of that stuff, but there is this one case report of a very close friend which tells me a lot about the ontological nature in this case. He is a materialist scientist, a typical skeptic like Dawkins - couple of years ago he went on a hike with his girlfriend. They slept in a tent and in the middle of the night, they suddenly woke up at the same time because of a weird dream. Turned out both had the EXACT same dream of his girlfriends grandmother telling them not to worry. They were confused, baffled by the experience and decided to cancle the trip. Turned out that her by then healthy grandmother suffered a stroke that night. I talked with him a lot about this experience and it shattered his worldview in some sense. 

If you actually go and look for that stuff, its everywhere. I remember a couple of years ago, I was super skeptical about everything psi-related. I thought everyone who beleived in that stuff was an deluded idiot. But, to be honest - I was just ignorant. I had no idea what I was talking about. 

There is an enormous amount of historic evidence. 
-> Hans Berger, the inventor of the EEG, got interested in brain waves after having a telepathic experience with his sister
""The incident made such an impression on Berger that, years later in 1940, he wrote: "It was a case of spontaneous telepathy in which at a time of mortal danger, and as I contemplated certain death, I transmitted my thoughts, while my sister, who was particularly close to me, acted as the receiver."" (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hans_Berger)

-> Joseph of coppertino - the flying monk, witnessed by thousands of people -> https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joseph_of_Cupertino
-> THE PK-Man https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ted_Owens_(contactee)
-> Pythagoras remembering past lives: 
https://hermesphilus.com/2018/03/29/pythagoras-got-the-ability-to-remember-past-lives-from-hermes/

-> D.D Home, who was even tested by sceptics at the time https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Daniel_Dunglas_Home
-> Yoganandas biography is full of accounts of siddhis
and so on....

There is SO much! Now, lets be skeptical for a moment - could all this be BS?
Yes, there is a chance that everyone I mentioned plus thousands more are either deluded, psychotic or simply lying. Thats a decision everyone has to make for himself. I dont want to be dogmatic, but in my opinion the evidence shows clearly in one direction. 

Ok, but is there science?
There are countless of scientists who are studying this field. The first name which comes to my mind is Dean Radin and his Institute of noetic sciences (https://noetic.org/). There are hundreds of studies, that prove beyond any statistical doubt, that "something" like psi exists. Now, what do the critics say? Well, there is one major problem plagueing the field, and thats reproducibility. Most studies wont produce the same result again and thats one of the pillars of the scientific method. 

Now this doesnt mean that all that research is bullshit. In fact, it kinda makes sense. Sci-phenomena are not as easily studiable as for example a new pill against high blood pressure. The effects are often very flimsy and prone to interpretation. Nevertheless, there is something there. Life is not a Dragonball Z episode and the magnitude of the effects depends on a variety of variables, which we need to take into account. 

Here is a good interview with Radin.

Why is there no video/photo evidence of siddhis?
If there was, how would know it wasnt fake or staged? The truth is, there is: 

 

 

 

If it works why didnt the military get interested in this?
Project stargate was a secret U.S. Army unit established in 1978 at Fort Meade, Maryland, by the Defense Intelligence Agency (DIA) and SRI International (a California contractor) to investigate the potential for psychic phenomena in military and domestic intelligence applications. The US military did its own research on this and concluded that "it kinda works, but its too inaccurate for military use" 

Here is a great video about this project: 

 

Why did noone claim Randys price? 
Well, to be honest I dont know. There are many arguments for and against Randy. As I already mentioned, most effects are very subtle and do not work with crude scientific measurements. Also, Randy had an obvious bias AGAINST these phenomeneon, which is also a problem. Thats why we double blind our experiments in medicine, because we know that our own mind will work against an unbiased look at the results. 

You can find many claims of people who allegedly did something Randy wasnt expecting - but instead of handing over the money he got mad and accused them of being frauds and charlatans. Personally I will remain agnostic towards those claims. 

And here we are at a core problem: Most people who claim to have such powers are of course charlatans. This takes the whole credibility out of everything psy related, even if there IS some kind of truth shrouded behind all that bullshit. Its a bit like the UFO stories. 

But PSI contradicts physics

Thats a pretty dumb assumption - Physics is nowhere close to being a theory of everything. 
In fact, physics is in a big crisis because the very small and the very large dont seem to comprehend each other. Conciousness is, despite in some fringe projects, nowhere near the major institutional theories and that keeps the whole field stuck.

With conciousness being the one thing that really exists - everything is possible. 
Non only that, it would make psi some kind of natural necessity. 

[Carl-Richard]

3 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

Assuming i prove that i can levitate and want to help science understand my power, every sane government would put national protection over me. i'd be safe. Furthermore, if you conduct experiments in places in highly developed countries like Germany, Sweden or Japan the risk is similar to zero.

Your main assumption here is that the public should know about such experiments. The government won't just share highly advantagous technology with other countries. After all, the MK-Ultra and Stargate projects were highly classified, top secret military intelligence.

Edited August 21, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[_Archangel_]

@undeather Thanks for the imputs. (i'm yet to research the Stargate project and the interview)
Many of the videos shows there is quite certenly "something" out there ( Java healer's fire making is probably the most convincing tape on the subject i'v ever seen). Even though for many reasons even tape can be subjected to manipulation

Anyway this make my think that most poeple with the most tangible powers developed them through radical paths that demands secrecy, so we will never be able to study their abilities

So what remains to be examined is casual poeple with feble, foggy or subtle talents and that only complicates scientific research.
 

[_Archangel_]

@Carl-Richard that's true. in the end we don't know the full extent of data that gorvernments possess.
I was trying to make up my mind based on the content that is available to the public

[Shmurda]

@undeather Dude thank you so much for this reply! Amazing. Dynamo Jack blew my mind.

[Endangered-EGO]

16 hours ago, Moksha said:

As a scientist, I hear you. But let's be honest. Science is great for predicting outcomes, within the narrow band of human existence. What happens beyond that band? The more you stretch it, the weaker it becomes, until it finally snaps.

Einstein realized this. At the extremes, Newtonian mechanics start to fray. Instead of an objective cosmos, we realize that reality depends entirely on the perceiver.

Given that, what can we say about siddhis? Sure, we can try to replicate them within a lab, but what does that prove about reality, at the extremes of human existence? Science doesn't grok ultimate reality. Direct realization is the science of Self-awareness 

@Moksha What you're saying is: Siddhis han happen but are outside of our control.

That's the only fair point I've heard. And that I believe. But then why wouldn't it be chance/luck? Or just delusion for some people?

[Moksha]

8 hours ago, _Archangel_ said:

I would argue that for science would be easy to quantify levitation or telekinesis or remote-hearing IF tangible.
Understanding their mechanism would be another pair of shoes.

How do you quantify relative reality, when by definition, it is not objective? The mass and velocity of a given object are not reliably quantifiable; they depend entirely on the perceiver. We tell ourselves that the cosmos can be quantified, because we live within such a narrow band of reality that we rarely see evidence to the contrary. Einstein recognized relativity, but was unable to discover a unified field theory based on the scientific method.

Ultimately, it is all Consciousness, in different states of Self-awareness. That fundamental truth cannot be proved by science, and is beyond conceptualization. It is only directly realized.

[Moksha]

1 hour ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Moksha What you're saying is: Siddhis han happen but are outside of our control.

That's the only fair point I've heard. And that I believe. But then why wouldn't it be chance/luck? Or just delusion for some people?

It's even more profound than that. What if you, as a human being, are just another siddhi? Is what you do, as a human, really within your control, or is Consciousness calling the shots?

[Endangered-EGO]

@Moksha Well that's it. I have control over nothing. Not my dreams, not myheart beating, not my next thought, notmy emotions etc. How would I be able to control siddhis if I (ego) can't control anything.

[Gesundheit2]

Siddhis are real, but humans can't perform them. They happen to humans, done by higher beings.

21 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Moksha Well that's it. I have control over nothing. Not my dreams, not myheart beating, not my next thought, notmy emotions etc. How would I be able to control siddhis if I (ego) can't control anything.

Ego has a fair amount of apparent control over certain things. You can choose to reply to me or not. Up to you.

Determinism does not invalidate control.

[_Archangel_]

13 hours ago, Moksha said:

Ultimately, it is all Consciousness, in different states of Self-awareness. That fundamental truth cannot be proved by science, and is beyond conceptualization. It is only directly realized.

True. You cannot quantify Pure Being or Consciousness, but ESP are of a lesser order.
 

 

13 hours ago, Moksha said:

How do you quantify relative reality, when by definition, it is not objective? The mass and velocity of a given object are not reliably quantifiable; they depend entirely on the perceiver. We tell ourselves that the cosmos can be quantified, because we live within such a narrow band of reality that we rarely see evidence to the contrary. Einstein recognized relativity, but was unable to discover a unified field theory based on the scientific method.

Ok maybe "quantify" is a problematic term, what i meant was simply that is in the potential of science to isolate, identify and acknowledge this fenomena 

 

Edited August 22, 2021 by _Archangel_

[Blackhawk]

1 hour ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@Moksha Well that's it. I have control over nothing. Not my dreams, not myheart beating, not my next thought, notmy emotions etc. How would I be able to control siddhis if I (ego) can't control anything.

As soon as I call it: "We are all victims" you guys suddenly disagree and go bananas.

 

Edited August 21, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Carl-Richard]

3 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

As soon as I call it: "We are all victims" you guys suddenly disagree and go bananas.

"Victim" is a loaded term. You had to see that one coming (don't play the victim here)