Critique Against Actualized.org and Leo's Work

[samijiben]

I want to level a critique against Actualized that I guarantee you've never heard before. This has recently been brought to my attention.

I should preface by expressing my appreciation and gratitude for your work, Leo. I speak on behalf of your audience and the members of this forum when I say your work has transformed my understanding of myself and reality in a positive way. 

With that being said, I believe your philosophy leaves out an integral component of spirituality: that of physical health. Now I know what you're thinking: spirituality is all about transcending the physical body. But transcendence does not mean ignoring what you're transcending, it means including it while also moving on to "bigger and better things." 

Let me specify what I mean when I say physical health. I do not just mean eating healthy and working out. I mean pushing your body to extreme limits, whether that's by lifting heavy weights, doing high-intensity training, running hard, rowing, boxing, swimming, playing tennis, playing basketball, or essentially any sport that you do not just play for shits and giggles but to train the body and reach excellence and peak-performance while testing your physical limits and pushing yourself physically in the face of adversity. I think running long-distance best exemplifies this.

Then again, maybe as an athlete I am being biased and can't see it. But I think extreme physical endurance and strength are crucial to spirituality. 

[Flowerfaeiry]

10 minutes ago, samijiben said:

I mean pushing your body to extreme limits

Pushing your body to extreme limits is not healthy. 

[Ilan]

True, he’s not perfect. You can’t be on top on every areas. You have to make sacrifices. And seems that Leo sacrificed this part of the path, maybe cause of his health condition too. 

[Ilan]

7 minutes ago, Flowerfaeiry said:

Pushing your body to extreme limits is not healthy. 

It is not healthy. It is the peak of healthy. You can take people who have never open a book on spirituality with 0education, if they are willing to push their body to extreme limits, spirituality comes naturally to them. It is just pure magic. No one can deny that

You could imagine a Leo who would have the mentality of pushing his body limits like a Michael Jordan. He would certainly be the ultimate super human, but to actualize it would require so much emotional labour it is almost impossible. I’m not sure one such human exist on the planet. There is 1Leo for 1billion people. 1 Michael Jordan for 1billion people. So the superhuman hypothétique Leo with super physical strenght would be 1/10^18. Humanity will be lucky if one such human goes down to earth in the next 10 000 years.

[samijiben]

@Ilan Goggins has been a huge influence for me. Whoever says pushing your body is unhealthy is unhealthy.

[BipolarGrowth]

So where did you get the idea that Leo doesn’t find physical health important? He’s been showing us fruit bowls for like three years lol

[samijiben]

@BipolarGrowth Again, I am not talking about fruit bowls. I am talking about physical endurance and strength.

[RMQualtrough]

I've never before seen someone criticized as heavily and as frequently as Leo is. Lmao.

[BipolarGrowth]

6 minutes ago, samijiben said:

@BipolarGrowth Again, I am not talking about fruit bowls. I am talking about physical endurance and strength.

Sure, but the more important foundation for all of that is diet. Why don’t you make a post about these things so we can learn from what you’ve mastered in those areas? 

[KennedyCarter]

I’m all for the healthy eating but the problem with that is sustainability. Athletics have peaks and then declines as the human body ages. Maybe when you’re young but at some point you’d have to give it up. 

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, samijiben said:

But I think extreme physical endurance and strength are crucial to spirituality.

In practice your pursuit of extreme physical whatever will become a distraction to diving deep into consciousness.

Physical health is important. And I have spent a lot of time at the gym pushing heavy ass weights in the past. But it did nothing for my spirituality, so don't kid yourself.

If your theory was true then all those gym rats would be woke and spiritual as fuck, and they simply aren't.

The most conscious people in history were not roided up Joe Rogan meatheads.

[hoodrow trillson]

I have a friend who did the what the OP said and ended up fucking up his ankle and his back because he loved pushing himself to his physical limits, and now he’s always limping or getting easily hurt and has back problems, along with a myriad of other complications from over training.

Everybody is gangster until they slip a disk or severely roll an ankle.

[Matt23]

2 hours ago, samijiben said:

Whoever says pushing your body is unhealthy is unhealthy.

I think this is just simply false.  Sounds a bit ideological and absolutistic.  Too black and white.  ..sounds like your trolling even...

Anyways. 

@hoodrow trillson I definitely agree with what you said.  

I did lots of sports and physical activity growing up.  Competing in basketball and triathlons at elite levels.  Then working lots of manual labor.  Including tree-planting for a summer which seems to be one of the most physically demanding jobs out there (I still maintain anyone can do it, from what I've seen).  I've rolled my ankle many times (both I'm pretty sure), got into a collision in basketball where I'm pretty sure I damaged a rib/spine a bit, some knee issues, feet issues.  Basically, I can barely go for a 20 minute jog without my feet becoming very tender and sore.  If I was to consider doing anything the OP sounds like he'd considers "healthy" in terms of fitness (i.e., pushing my body), that would be irresponsible, damaging, and just stupid.  

Clearly people vary greatly.  So one person may benefit and enjoy greatly this ideology/attitude of pushing oneself to their extremes physically as a top priority in life (though, I'm willing to bet it's an extremely small portion of the population).  But I think for most people A) it just wouldn't give them peace, happiness, and fulfillment overall, and B) would probably do more harm to themselves physically, 

Even those people who do push themselves to the extremes (David Goggins, extreme long-distance runners, you I suppose, etc.), I am skeptical at how long they can maintain that type of lifestyle and how crippled their bodies will be afterwards.  It's considered relatively common knowledge in pro sports like football, hockey, and basketball, that A) players can only play till like their 30s and mayyyyybe 40s until their bodies just can't handle it, and B) once they retire, their bodies are just trash.  It's also worth pointing out that professional athletes and people like David Goggins (I dunno about him) have tons or $, resources and experts guiding and helping them so that they can optimize their bodies and recovery.  I wonder how long their bodies would last without the worlds top sports doctors and the like helping them out  ...

Anyway, I just thinking people gotta make sure they are safe with their bodies.  I learned and am learning the hard way that the body is absolutely not invincible.  Especially for people who experience chronic stress and anxiety and long-term emotional issues and traumas (like me), it's not hard to imagine that the body's ability to recover and not breakdown is reduce greatly, not only considering reduced immune function, stress linked to stomach and digestive absorption issues that then make it difficult to absorb proper nutrients, but also with things like elevated stress hormones that can be damaging if overexposed.  

I guess just try to see that it's not the only or necessarily best way to live.  At least, I don't think so for many people.   

 

[samijiben]

@Matt23 Thank you. This makes sense. I say thank you because I now see the blindspot in my philosophy.

I suppose I meant at the very least the incorporation of physical strength/endurance training into spirituality, but I'm definitely wrong about the extreme part. 

But when I see the picture of the aligned spiritual meditative dude (I'll attach a pic so you know what I'm talking about), what I think about is holism; and holism includes physical strength/endurance.

Thinking about it now, that's kinda stupid, so... Thanks for changing my mind! (kind of)

[okulele]

I also see the body side of things as a blind spot of Actualized.org, which makes the teaching quite one-sided and unholistic (granted that Leo has a specific niche, which is philosophy and mind).

I don't necessarily mean extrem sports like @samijiben, but rather the opening of the body - the physcial body, the energy body... all that jazz. This actualy is related to spirituality very much. As much as we need awakening, we need the container (the body) to hold that consciousness from moment to moment. Otherwise awakening is simply an experience that comes and goes.

Even such notions that I heard Leo speak about somewhere on the forum like (I paraphrase) - "Don't try to heal your body with consciousness, go see the doctors" - while they have some validity, there is an enormous misunderstanding here. It's as if we are anyhow apart from the body or a victim to it - exactly that attitude gets demolished by progressive entering, relaxing and embodying. 

It's a huge piece of work that I think is not given the due credit here.

Edited August 17, 2021 by okulele

[Leo Gura]

@samijiben You should keep your body fit and healthy. But that's not the same as becoming a gym rat or David Goggins. Those are actually egotistical activities.

Actualized.org does not focus on exercise and nutrition so much not because it isn't important but because that information is easily accessible elsewhere online. You don't need Leo to teach you how to exercise your ass. My work is focused on epistemology, metaphysics, and psychology. You are expected to study many other sources. If I am your own source, you're doing it wrong.

[martins name]

In Ken Wilber's book "The Religion of Tomorrow" he quoted a trial where there were two groups of monks in the same monastery, one trained with weights during their time there, one didn't. The ones who trained progressed faster spiritually. 

You also get to have more tantric sex with a bod like Kens. Damn he was sexy

Edited August 17, 2021 by martins name

[samijiben]

@Leo Gura Definitely, they bolster one's identity of being strong or fit or buff or whatever. Thank you for this insight. 

[samijiben]

@martins name Damn! Ken Wilber is ripped! You sure that's not photoshopped?? 

[Leo Gura]

8 minutes ago, martins name said:

In Ken Wilber's book "The Religion of Tomorrow" he quoted a trial where there were two groups of monks in the same monastery, one trained with weights during their time there, one didn't. The ones who trained progressed faster spiritually. 

You also get to have more tantric sex with a bod like Kens. Damn he was sexy

Like I said above, take care of your body.

You guys make it sound like I am anti-exercise. I used to squat so much weight my thighs would not fit in my jeans.

Moderate exercise is ideal.