Leo's latest video - "what awakening feels like?"

[Leo Gura]

6 minutes ago, wildflower said:

Look I could be wrong, but it seems to me you guys speak about the same phenomenological experience

Of course we are splitting hairs here.

The basics of nonduality and consciousness are all the same. There's just degrees of holism to it.

Which is why these kinds of nondual debates are a waste of time.

The only practical point is: go for Infinite Consciousness. Nothing else matters. Don't stop until you understand EVERYTHING.

[wildflower]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course we are splitting hairs here.

The basics of nonduality and consciousness are all the same. There's just degrees of holism to it.

Which is why these kinds of nondual debates are a waste of time.

The only practical point is: go for Infinite Consciousness. Nothing else matters. Don't stop until you understand EVERYTHING.

Fair. The only person in the world for me that speaks different then this, that seems to encapsulate these other teachings but transcends them is Ajahn Brahm, he talks more about nothingness then anyone else. He also is probably one of the meditation masters in the world. 

I wonder what your thoughts are on the way he describes it, I've timestamped it, it takes 3 minutes, he talks about different states of conciousness, ifninite conciousness, but in the end there is more beyond, I recommend the whole video:

 

 

[asifarahim]

@wildflower did frank y

18 minutes ago, wildflower said:

Heres another video with timestamp of him referencing the same luminousity you do: 

 

Im only posting him as he was Frank Yangs guide to awakening

Did frank yang use only daniel ingram to reach arhant

[Leo Gura]

23 minutes ago, wildflower said:

he talks more about nothingness then anyone else.

Everything I talk about is Nothingness.

[wildflower]

4 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Everything I talk about is Nothingness.

What is your view on what Ajahn Brahm is saying, have you seen or read any of his stuff? he is very explicit in the video, he basically is saying God consciousness is still ultimately suffering that should be let go of, to go to beyond to nothigness:

 

Interviewer:

54:25

nirvana as a non-conditioned non-personal

awareness at the level of

the universal atman what they say

and describe like to be finally drawn

into and absorbed into nirvana as a

drop of vapor is drawn into the ocean

and they're losing all personal

individuality

 

 

 

54:53

replace it by the impersonal

individuality

of the universal essence the universe is

a person

in that sense so you're just kicking the

can down the road

so the universal essence has to now

suffer

wherever this consciousness has to be

consciousness that's what

one of the reasons why i think it's
called

vi like by its duality to know is

to know good and bad you can't just have

knowing good

and therefore there is a change

sometimes

that's really joyful but then it's more

joyful

and the ordinary joy is not as good as

the lord joy

it's suffering there this is one of the

reasons why

you can see that all types of

consciousness

and inherently suffering and that's

exactly what the buddha said

is dukkha

cheetah is duca manno is dukkha

all types of consciousness known as it's

like wishful thinking

you know we human beings don't like to

face the truth

and we want to be but we don't want to

be suffering

so they think come on just so i'll get

rid of the stuffing but still keep you

know things i like

i like knowing or will

and after a while you find that you can

and why do you want to anyway because

people think they are

that's why they don't want to let go of

the

the idea of being after a while when you

realize there's nothing here

nothing here now it's nothing destroyed

[RedLine]

1 hour ago, wildflower said:

Fair. The only person in the world for me that speaks different then this, that seems to encapsulate these other teachings but transcends them is Ajahn Brahm, he talks more about nothingness then anyone else. He also is probably one of the meditation masters in the world. 

I wonder what your thoughts are on the way he describes it, I've timestamped it, it takes 3 minutes, he talks about different states of conciousness, ifninite conciousness, but in the end there is more beyond, I recommend the whole video:

 

 

what Leo describe does not look like suffering at all

 

 

also what the monk says is a nonse, if the goal is void into nothigness and oblivion because life and rebirth are suffer, because everything is suffer, why would the world was created in the first place and it did not remain as that Nothing he wants to achieve? 

 

 

[Adamq8]

@wildflower LOL metaphysical claim, his nothingness is no further then GOD.

buddhism which is famous for atheism speaks about GOD and claim nothingness is beyond, dont you see the irony in that?

It is atheistic and materialism in a religion form.

He has no clue at all about GOD obviously. 

A life denying teaching is what that is.

 

[Adamq8]

https://youtu.be/BbPl906-PL4

[gettoefl]

<>

Edited August 17, 2021 by gettoefl

[wildflower]

2 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

@wildflower LOL metaphysical claim, his nothingness is no further then GOD.

buddhism which is famous for atheism speaks about GOD and claim nothingness is beyond, dont you see the irony in that?

It is atheistic and materialism in a religion form.

He has no clue at all about GOD obviously. 

A life denying teaching is what that is.

 

I would disagree with this. AS he says, humans have a problem with dealing with the Truth, especially if it opposes our survival, which in actuality it turns out it does.

Your degree to bare the Truth is inversely related to your desire for survival.

[Adamq8]

@wildflower ofcourse the truth is opposed to survival in a way but then again it is not.

For example, kashmir shaivism tradition is more life affirming, it deals with truth and also how to live the good life and grow and evolve as a human being, it does not treat the world as an illusion but as a manifestation of the Absolute and that is what everything is.

Infinite appearing as this.

Thats the truth, it is not some non existence void which is truth and this here is a delusion, talk about a funny view of reality, i can understand why one would claim life is suffering if one wants to cease to exist.

Life is suffering and JOY and everything in between.

It is nothing and everything. 

If the ultimate truth was a pure denial of survival there would have been alot of spiritual Masters who just died apparently, thats not really the case.

One can realize the truth and still let life flow through you as the expression of the Ultimate.

Non duality is right here right now. 

This right in front of you is precisely the truth.

 

[Goldzilla]

Yes, this is accurate enough in first contact with "awakening". 

I'm waiting for a more deep description of realization, this is good, basic but good. 

A description more on finding the God within and finding one's real voice.

[The0Self]

6 hours ago, asifarahim said:

@wildflower did frank y

Did frank yang use only daniel ingram to reach arhant

You mean whose frameworks and guidance did he use? Not only Daniel Ingram. I followed him just enough to know.

He used Kenneth Folk, Michael Taft, Rob Burbea, Bentinho Massaro, Rupert Spira, Jim Newman, probably Leo somewhat actually, and probably many others.

[Being Frank Yang]

Everything Leo speaks in this video in regards to awakening and god i have personally encountered, the difference is I don't call it God or Love or Consciousness.  And I stopped giving them importances.

Awakening is the most extraordinary thing one can imagine yes it is absolutely mind blowing, so infinite that there is no more mind. No more levels consciousness. No more form or emptiness.  Even Awakenings and Realizations and even enlightenment itself are perceived to be the stuff of the dream. Of course all these "experiences" will make you shit in your pants, physically dying, being so blown away you're no longer human, and they are all encountered on the Path. But eventually they are all absorbed and transcended. 

The more ordinary the more Divine. The better way to put IT is that it transcends even the notion of extraordinary vs. ordinary. 

On no Self being a "minor" Realization: 

Temporary experience of no Self on meditation or psychedelic is not the same as Realization of no Self. Realization is deeper than a transcendental experience and both are "minor" sure.   

But the permanent dropping away of self/Self is on another dimension altogether. After self/Self drops away there is nothing but God and Infinity 24 7.  There is a quantum difference between a self perceiving God in the center vs. permanently dropping away of any center or vintage point, and there's only Godhead Comprehending and Creating Itself ad Infinite. 

Now I can only speak from personal experience but before self/Self permanently drops, even the most mind blowing experiences still comes from a self.  If you had a Realization or an "experience", then you find yourself shifting back to separated state then it's a temporary experience of a self and not a Realization, let along the permanent dropping away of center, which is beyond any teachings of contemporary Neo Advida or most mainstream or new age spirituality teachings. In fact it's beyond spirituality altogether. 

There's absolutely no reference point to the "experience" of permanently dropping away of self/Self.  There is no words to describe it.  It robs everything away from you, even Consciousness itself and all of your previous Realization.   There is no perceiver, no agency, no center at all times.  The enlightened self sitting on his throne of Nirvana is the final layer of the dream.

edit: Buddha didn't teach Absolute Self. He taught no-self AND No-Self, which is the middle way, the merging and transcendence of Being/Non-Being, Absolute Infinity and Absolute Nothingness. But No Self IS True Self, so let's not get bogged down to terminologies.  But I see way too many people on the Path getting stuck in the identification to an Absolute Self. 

Cessation is 0 consciousness. Complete black out.  Which makes this Insight extremely valuable because non existence is in a totally different order than existence. No consciousness is in a totally different order than levels of consciousness. YET they're also exactly the same because 2 sides of the extremes eventually cancel each other out and become 0 when they meet as death is Love/life.

But I'm still on the fence whether it's necessary for awakening. In my direct experience it's the ultimate no experience that truly truly re-wires the brain permanently.  It takes 5 to 10 years of meditation to get your first cessation. After awakening you can get 10 cessations in 30 mins of sitting.  (What I'm more interested in is permanent shifts. It doesn't matter how many awakenings one's had, but if moment to moment perception isn't permanently altered, say shifting from 720 to 1080 to 4K 360 and 8k 360 or the self dissolving from solidity to liquid to air, then there is no Realization).

Enlightenment is not a state of consciousness. It's 0 if you want to put a number on the dial, which also makes it Infinite and in-quantifiable.  All "levels of consciousness" belongs to the dream and are the by products of "peeling away of separation/conditions".  Enlightenment is deeper than consciousness or even awareness.  

As krishnamurti said "The moment you are aware of Awareness, you are not aware of Awareness"

It's deeper than total unity and Oneness. 

As Adyshanti said, you eventually "wake up out of Oneness".

You could say it's the _______ prior to unity and all states of consciousness. Prior to and it's what manifest the dial on the awakening scale.

Shinzen young describes the path as going from surface level consciousness to Source. And many people on the Path got diverted from going directly to Source to sidetracking themselves to the content/manifestation of Source mid path (although Source is Appearance. Content IS context.  But this cannot be Realized unless one's abiding  in Source as Source). 

But what happens AFTER Source is Realized? Sure one can continue to explore. There is no end to the Infinitude of Reality. But as I've emphasized many times, there is a event horizon you cross before and after enlightenment.  Ramana Maharishi and many other sages on that level all point to the fact that enlightenment itself has no levels. You're either there or you're not.  And it's not a process happening anywhere. The question of whether or not it's a brain/mind State becomes completely irrelevant.

 

Edited August 18, 2021 by Being Frank Yang

[Adamq8]

@Being Frank Yang Thanks for sharing?

[Leo Gura]

Shinzen Young is def not fully awake.

This Buddhist shit is not Infinity.

All you have to do is ask your guru: What is reality? and if he does not tell you INFINITY, he doesn't understand.

[RedLine]

7 hours ago, Being Frank Yang said:

 

Cessation is 0 consciousness. Complete black out.  Which makes this Insight extremely valuable because non existence is in a totally different order than existence. No consciousness is in a totally different order than levels of consciousness. YET they're also exactly the same because 2 sides of the extremes eventually cancel each other out and become 0 when they meet as death is Love/life.

But I'm still on the fence whether it's necessary for awakening. In my direct experience it's the ultimate no experience that truly truly re-wires the brain permanently.  It takes 5 to 10 years of meditation to get your first cessation. After awakening you can get 10 cessations in 30 mins of sitting.  (What I'm more interested in is permanent shifts. It doesn't matter how many awakenings one's had, but if moment to moment perception isn't permanently altered, say shifting from 720 to 1080 to 4K 360 and 8k 360 or the self dissolving from solidity to liquid to air, then there is no Realization).

 

There is something scary and non appealing in your discourse. It basically match the modern athetistic narrative because:

 

1. Since there are something called Cessation where 0 consciousness happens, it is logit to assume that that is what will happen after we die, forever.

2. It reduces God and Love insights to temporary and interemdiate levels. They are not ultimate reality. They are basically fireworks that occur in your mind, as a modern atheist would say.

 

I know that your permanent 24/7 experience is incredibly bliss but what you say sounds fucking depressing from outside haha.

Edited August 18, 2021 by RedLine

[Enlightenment]

1 hour ago, RedLine said:

There is something scary and non appealing in your discourse

If you find it scary, I think you haven't deeply contemplated what it really means. If there is no consciousness (leaving aside whether or not it's really unconsciousness), there is 0 suffering, not even a possibility.

@Being Frank Yang Have you ever reached Visuddhimagga level jhana? Supposedly in Visuddhimagga Jhanas, you don't even hear anything if someone screams directly in your ear, but only about 1/3 of the monks are able to enter it.

Did you explore temporary states of 'tapping into Ultimate Reality,? which Kenneth talks about here:

And here:

Those are different from classical jhanas

Edited August 18, 2021 by Enlightenment

[Adamq8]

@RedLine The thing is there is equally as much evidence of life keeps going after death as it is oblivion, it is as much evidence for GOD as there is evidence against GOD.

It is sick to recognize that one can postulate and experience radically different things and then another part can come up with exactly why it is not that way at all, we are in a bind no matter what frank says, or Leo or anyone else, one has to go with what feels right i guess.

The thing is we cant capture reality in a way that is consistent with everything.

Frank makes metaphysical claims about the nature of reality by his experiences, as does Leo, and Frank cant possibly know what Leo is refering too with GOD and infinity, and same goes for Leo with Frank.

Thats why one should always take everything with a grain of salt.

It should be obvious by now that non dual schools has different approaches,  and who is to say which one is right?

Buddhism is known for its atheistic moralistic religion and nirvana is non existence.

But as I said there are other interpretations of buddhism that goes along the lines with advaita vedanta and neo platonism etc.

Both Leo and Frank are right and also both are wrong in someways.

 

[Tim R]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

This Buddhist shit is not Infinity.

All you have to do is ask your guru: What is reality? and if he does not tell you INFINITY, he doesn't understand.

@Leo Gura Yes, but unlike you, Buddhism is not interested in finding out what reality is. 

They are interested in liberation, which

1. doesn't require the realization of infinity 

2. is why they focus so much on no-self and emptiness. Because that's essentially all you need for liberation.

The burning desire for "understanding reality" won't stand you in good service when it comes to liberation, even though in order to find liberation, you must understand certain facets of reality (no-self, emptiness, love). 

"Understanding reality" can be, and in most cases is, an extremely egoic and narcissistic enterprise.