Interesting Take on the Incel Phenomenon

[Emerald]

Interesting article about the societal changes that have given way to the incel phenomenon…

https://americanaffairsjournal.org/2020/11/the-new-superfluous-men/?fbclid=IwAR3L50jNw8okIZ5g_H-QtIkNnQJgwKfbSllbQ2-b1ohxNlDEiwJREPyh7g4

[Emerald]

23 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

So, in short: Get social bro! Get out of the coal mine! It aint 1950 no more?

Yes exactly 

[Bando]

1 hour ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

So, in short: Get social bro! Get out of the coal mine! It aint 1950 no more?

Easier said then done Incels have way bigger issues than just being social their starting at such a low point of shame, insecurity, limiting beliefs its like like telling a man thats been homeless for 5 years, "Go make money bro!" "Were not in a recession any more"

[Jacob Morres]

1 minute ago, Bando said:

Easier said then done Incels have way bigger issues than just being social their starting at such a low point of shame, insecurity, limiting beliefs its like like telling a man thats been homeless for 5 years, "Go make money bro!" "Were not in a recession any more"

 

[Tangerinedream]

What I understood from the article is that there has always been forgotten men, these ‘excess’ men throughout history would be killed off at war etc. 

having more women than men in society is better for evolution since one man can father more children than a woman can birth children in a lifetime. 

So incels today are more noticeable because they aren’t sent away to war or killed off like they would be in the past, they live and stay home and communicate over the internet. so there is an over abundance of masculinity. 

Incels shouldn’t be mad at women they should be mad at the patriarchy that created this. The same patriarchy that controlled women also had control over the excess of men by sending them away and killing them off. 

Wow, really, Interesting perspective thanks for sharing. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Tangerinedream

[SamC]

13 minutes ago, Tangerinedream said:

Inels shouldn’t be mad at women they should be mad at the patriarchy that created this. The same patriarchy that controlled women also had control over the excess of men by sending them away and killing them off. 

Wait so they should be mad at the patriarchy for sending weak men to war? How the hell does this solve their problem If anything - by that logic Incels should want them to send men to war becuase not sending them to war "creates" the problem of too many men ( if that's the problem narrative one wants to play)

Is there something I am missing? 

Also, side note. It's very easy to say " be more social and all your daiting problems will be solved" Hell no they won't.

That's like saying to a person suffering from a eating disorder to more and all your problems will go away. The problem is not, not being social per say. The problem is low self esteem, anxiety and depression. 

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by SamC

[Tangerinedream]

7 minutes ago, SamC said:

Wait so they should be mad at the patriarchy for sending weak men to war? How the hell does this solve their problem If anything - by that logic Incels should want them to send men to war becuase not sending them to war "creates" the problem of too many men ( if that's the problem narrative one wants to play)

Is there something I am missing?

 

 

I’m just saying what I understood from the article.  Maybe I’m wrong did you read it? 

[Emerald]

What I mostly glean from the article is that patriarchy sets up a power structure where a significant chunk of men never reproduce. That's surprising to me personally. I had assumed a relative parity in terms of the ratio of men and women who reproduce.

And this means that the more patriarchal a society is the more that female sexuality will be controlled, commodified, and have a false sense of scarcity applied to it. This is done by applying all kinds of psychological control mechanisms around sexual shame and chastity for women. Hence, why slut shaming has been so prevalent. It keeps women and society at large policing their sexual desires... hence keeping the "commodity" safe.

And then, the men who get the shittier end of the stick reproductively speaking, will have a high probability of being culled in a truly patriarchal society because they will be sent to war or to toil away to serve some rich guy.

But these men, if they're kept around (as they are now) will keep trying the play the patriachal game that fucks them over in hopes of flipping the power structures in their favor... which requires a nearly revolutionary effort as you're fighting against the powers that be. So it is difficult for them to buck the patriarchal narrative that fucks them, because they see a glimmer of hope to become the top dog.

But there is no real freedom there. It's just a very vicious power structure where women are commodified and men are constantly being ranked (with the possibility of being culled for ranking low).

Ultimately, I see the solution being already set in motion.

In my experience, my attractions don't have an extreme amount do with status and are very intuitive. It's about how I feel. They are also very monogamously oriented and love oriented. I can absolutely only have eyes for someone who is not objectively high status. And my guess is that this is not just me. I think it's how feminine sexuality actually is. 

I can see that, if women had things more their way and feminine principled traits like socialization and emotional intelligence were encouraged, then there would likely be a less hierarchical relationship set-up.

It seems that the facts bear that out. Egalitarian hunter gather societies were 3 to 1 in terms of men and women who reproduced respectively. Where patriarchal societies (with hierarchical ranking and strong control over female sexuality) were 17 to 1 in terms of men and women who reproduced respectively. 

So, in a similar way to how (because of the way government serves corporations) there is extreme wealth inequality where it is rigged to where the rich get richer and poor get poorer... in an extreme patriarchy (which is not the situation we're in currently even though we still have many patriarchal elements in the system) you have very wealthy men having multiple wives where the bottom 95% of men don't reproduce at all.

But overall, I see the solution for the individual Incel or man struggling with hierarchy, being to buck this deeply ingrained patriarchal narrative that tells them that they have to compete on this hierarchy to realize that the game is built so that there are a large number of men who lose it. Within that game, the weak ones are only there to justify the strong. And of course someone's self-esteem will be shit if they're attached to that game.

To stop playing that game, all you need to do is be social and meet people... including women. There is a nearly equal number of women to men on the planet. There is no reason for that reproduction disparity to be there at all... especially since women tend to be very aversive to men having mistresses and other wives. 

 

[SamC]

5 minutes ago, Emerald said:

To stop playing that game, all you need to do is be social and meet people... including women. There is a nearly equal number of women to men on the planet. There is no reason for that reproduction disparity to be there at all... especially since women tend to be very aversive to men having mistresses and other wives. 

I think you need to do more research into the problems men face with attracting woman. It's very easy to come up with a perfect solution for the opposite gender and to a problem you never faced yourself.

Edited August 14, 2021 by SamC

[Emerald]

12 minutes ago, SamC said:

I think you need to do more research into the problems men face with attracting woman. It's very easy to come up with a perfect solution to the opposite gender and to a problem you never faced yourself.

Honestly, up until the later years of high school when I found myself, I was definitely someone who was on the bottom of the barrel in terms of social status in most social contexts. And so my friends (male and female) have usually also been people who would be considered nerds or social outcasts. People who, in school, would be part of the unpopular crowd.

And so, a high number of the guys I dated in middle and early high school were nerd guys who were seen as unpopular. And I still have quite a lot of friends who are awkward nerdy guys. 

And of course, it's a bit harder for them to meet women and start relationships. 

But you know what, EVERY SINGLE ONE of those guys that I know have had girlfriends. Some of them now have wives. 

And so, the ONLY factor that I can see that's different between an Incel and my nerdy guy friends is that Incels have a shitty ideology and my friends don't... and that my nerdy guy friends regularly interact socially with both men and women and Incels don't.

My nerdy guy friends have male friends and they have female friends. They have a rich social circle of accepting like-minded people around them.

These Incel guys are guys who just don't socialize and who are bogged down in victim's mentality and low self-esteem. If they did socialize and resolve their self-esteem issues, they would eventually find a lady who's into them. 

But they have to stop playing that hierarchical game and trying to match up to some unrealistic standard of masculinity. 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Emerald

[Karmadhi]

Plenty of incels either are social or have tried being social and been treated like shit regarding girls.

One example out of many.

This incel thing is not as black and white as Leo and some other people here make it seem. "Just go out bro" will not be enough often. You need to change their inner game about them being disgusting, only way for that to properly work is for society as a whole to stop caring so much about looks. Difficult in a materialistic stage orange society.

Characters in media like the dwarf from game of thrones or levi from attack on titan being total bosses even though they are not the typical "good looking tall guy" is a good example that should be set more often.

On an individual level it is easy to fix your inner game, plenty of positive videos affirmations etc. So if anyone here feels like an incel then it is not that hard for them to escape it.

However on a group level you need more work, self help will not cut it. Your whole cultural medium and norms need to change. By group level i mean eliminating it as a problem for society instead of fixing it for 1 specific person that may struggle with it.

They are 2 totally different problems that need different solutions with individual level fix being 10 million times easier than a society level fix.

 

Edited August 14, 2021 by Karmadhi

[Blackhawk]

I don't think the solution is to simply be more social. Only maybe to some incels.

I, personally, think that the brutal truth is that most of the incels genuinely suck, so if a man sucks, then it doesn't matter how social he is.

I'm talking from personal experience, I genuinely suck, therefore I'm a incel. No amount of social training can cure that. In the same way as a genuinely stupid person can't get a PhD in mathematics or something, no matter how hard that person tries.

(I use harsh words like "suck" and "stupid", if you emotionally can't handle them then replace them with more politically correct words like "naturally less attractive" or "less intelligent".)

There's high requirements for a PhD in mathematics. In the same way women have high requirements for a partner.

And I don't think the incel thing is a new thing.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Blackhawk

[SamC]

The thing that you're missing is that most guys who suck with girls are either A socially unintelligent or B have low self esteem or C both.

Guys who are all that and especially C ( those who have low self esteem) struggle to attract girls because they just are too insecure. I don't know how many times I've been rejected, solely for that reason.

In that case, being social won't help you because girls view you as unattractive becuase guys like that are unsafe for women's survival.

I like your perspective a lot. There are some real gems that one could find but also realize that attracting woman if you're an inseceure man is fucking hard... and that it's not an easy solution to the problem. It's just not " be more social'... like the experience of many men is that it is hard.... and not easy, and I belive most men who struggle with this just want that acknowledged. Not that they are right, but that it is hard.. at the very least for them.

For guys who struggle with this it feels like a catch 22 that you can't escape from. You want to be confident in order to attract woman but you can't and therefor become even more anxious. When someone then suggests to be more social as an easy solution without trying to understand how hard it feels for for them, many men feel missunderstood, which makes the incel dynamic continue.

@Emerald

Edited August 14, 2021 by SamC

[Emerald]

18 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

I don't think the solution is to simply be more social. Only maybe to some incels.

I, personally, think that the brutal truth is that most of the incels genuinely suck, so if a man sucks, then it doesn't matter how social he is.

I'm talking from personal experience, I genuinely suck, therefore I'm a incel. No amount of social training can cure that. In the same way as a genuinely stupid person can't get a PhD in mathematics or something, no matter how hard that person tries.

(I use harsh words like "suck" and "stupid", if you emotionally can't handle them then replace them with more politically correct words like "naturally less attractive" or "less intelligent".)

There's high requirements for a PhD in mathematics. In the same way women have high requirements for a partner.

And I don't think the incel thing is a new thing.

Trust me when I say, I've known MANY guys who "suck" across the board. 

But these guys who suck were also part of my wider social circle and had their own wider social circle. And thus, they were able to get girlfriends.

For example, there was this guy that I used to know when I was a teenager that everyone called Walrus Boy because he looked like a walrus (sparse white mustache and all). And he was super awkward and not a very nice guy. And foremost, he was very creepy. He was the type of guy that most girls would specifically avoid interacting with.

And yet... he had a wide social circle. And he had plenty of girlfriends over the years I was acquainted with him... though I was perplexed about that.

Trust me when I say that I'm shocked that anyone is an incel. I've seen absolute trainwrecks of guys get girlfriends.

But the thing that differentiates these guys is just that they were out socializing with a bunch of people. 

[Emerald]

14 minutes ago, SamC said:

The thing that you're missing is that most guys who suck with girls are either A socially unintelligent or B have low self esteem or C both.

Guys who are all that and especially C ( those who have low self esteem) struggle to attract girls because they just are too insecure. I don't know how many times I've been rejected, solely for that reason.

In that case, being social won't help you because girls view you as unattractive becuase guys like that are unsafe for women's survival.

I like your perspective a lot. There are some real gems that one could find but also realize that attracting woman if you're an inseceure man is fucking hard... and that it's not an easy solution to the problem. It's just not " be more social'... like the experience of many men is that it is hard.... and not easy, and I belive most men who struggle with this just want that acknowledged. Not that they are right, but that it is hard.. at the very least for them.

For guys who struggle with this it feels like a catch 22 that you can't escape from. You want to be confident in order to attract woman but you can't and therefor become even more anxious.

@Emerald

The solution is not easy. But it is simple.

It's not easy to go and be social. There's a lot of bravery that it takes and lots of inner work and logistics to be taken care of.

But the solution is simple... go socialize. That's what needs to happen. And the obstacle is the path. 

[Blackhawk]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

Trust me when I say, I've known MANY guys who "suck" across the board. 

But these guys who suck were also part of my wider social circle and had their own wider social circle. And thus, they were able to get girlfriends.

For example, there was this guy that I used to know when I was a teenager that everyone called Walrus Boy because he looked like a walrus (sparse white mustache and all). And he was super awkward and not a very nice guy. And foremost, he was very creepy. He was the type of guy that most girls would specifically avoid interacting with.

And yet... he had a wide social circle. And he had plenty of girlfriends over the years I was acquainted with him... though I was perplexed about that.

Trust me when I say that I'm shocked that anyone is an incel. I've seen absolute trainwrecks of guys get girlfriends.

But the thing that differentiates these guys is just that they were out socializing with a bunch of people. 

Someone who is able to have a social circle doesn't suck.

A person who truly sucks wont be able to have a social circle, because that person wont be liked by anyone.

So none of the guys you mentioned sucks.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Emerald]

2 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Someone who is able to have a social circle doesn't suck.

A person who truly sucks wont be able to have a social circle, because that person wont be liked by anyone.

So none of the guys you mentioned sucks.

Trust me... I've known plenty of social guys who suck. In fact, all the guys I've know who have sucked have been social... because that's how I knew them. I wouldn't know that they suck unless I was social with them.

And I've found, that there can be absolutely delightful shy loner guys and horribly creepy weird guys who suck that are very social.

Also, you don't really need to be liked by everyone in your social circle to have your social circle. Everyone knew Walrus Boy. And he was never by himself. He always had friends and acquaintances around. And that's because he made a point to go out and socialize. 

Like I said, many people in his social circle felt uncomfortable around him. But he was still able to find some people who tolerated him and even some people who like him. He dated quite a few girls in his wider social circle.

And if you met the guy, you'd recognize that NO ONE is truly an Incel (INVOLUNTARILY celibate). If this guy isn't an Incel, then absolutely no one on the planet is.

[Blackhawk]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

Trust me... I've known plenty of social guys who suck. In fact, all the guys I've know who have sucked have been social... because that's how I knew them. I wouldn't know that they suck unless I was social with them.

And I've found, that there can be absolutely delightful shy loner guys and horribly creepy weird guys who suck that are very social.

Also, you don't really need to be liked by everyone in your social circle to have your social circle. Everyone knew Walrus Boy. And he was never by himself. He always had friends and acquaintances around. And that's because he made a point to go out and socialize. 

Like I said, many people in his social circle felt uncomfortable around him. But he was still able to find some people who tolerated him and even some people who like him. He dated quite a few girls in his wider social circle.

And if you met the guy, you'd recognize that NO ONE is truly an Incel (INVOLUNTARILY celibate). If this guy isn't an Incel, then absolutely no one on the planet is.

Those guys who you are talking about have something in their personality which people like. So they don't suck.

You're ignoring all those incel cases which do exist, because you have seen some guys who seem to suck, but still has managed to get a gf. How many such guys have you seen? Let's say max 15. How many billions of incels is there in the world who you ignore just because you've seen 15 guys who seem to suck but still has managed to get a gf?

[Blackhawk]

8 minutes ago, Emerald said:

If this guy isn't an Incel, then absolutely no one on the planet is.

What a solid piece of evidence that there doesn't exist a single incel on earth. Not.

That argument is based more on emotions than on rationality.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Blackhawk said:

Those guys who you are talking about have something in their personality which people like. So they don't suck.

You're ignoring all those incel cases which do exist, because you have seen some guys who seem to suck, but still has managed to get a gf. How many such guys have you seen? Let's say max 15. How many billions of incels is there in the world who you ignore just because you've seen 15 guys who seem to suck but still has managed to get a gf?

I grew up in a relatively small town. And so, I knew lots of people in the wider town. It was a very social town. 

And there were few places to hang out. But we'd find them. There was one place called the Vinyard which was a church that had created a teen night. That's where I knew Walrus boy and so many other people.

And isn't just guys that I know who suck who got girlfriends. It's almost EVERY guy that I was acquainted with (regardless of whether or not they sucked).

There are plenty of guys who are unattractive and socially awkward... and even some guys who are just creepy/crappy people. But because they're social, they've had girlfriends. 

I honestly think this is a too much social media and too little face to face social interaction issue.

So, it's a shame that so many guys misattribute their lack of success with girls as having to do with some flaw in them... and not what it ACTUALLY is. And that's a lack of social outlets and/or an unwillingness/discomfort with social situations.