Interesting Take on the Incel Phenomenon

[Etherial Cat]

@Emerald

Super interesting article. Thanks for sharing this with the forum.

It's a perspective that would benefit alike men and women when it comes to understanding "Incelhood".

41 minutes ago, Emerald said:

What I mostly glean from the article is that patriarchy sets up a power structure where a significant chunk of men never reproduce. That's surprising to me personally. I had assumed a relative parity in terms of the ratio of men and women who reproduce.

And this means that the more patriarchal a society is the more that female sexuality will be controlled, commodified, and have a false sense of scarcity applied to it. This is done by applying all kinds of psychological control mechanisms around sexual shame and chastity for women. Hence, why slut shaming has been so prevalent. It keeps women and society at large policing their sexual desires... hence keeping the "commodity" safe.

And then, the men who get the shittier end of the stick reproductively speaking, will have a high probability of being culled in a truly patriarchal society because they will be sent to war or to toil away to serve some rich guy.

But these men, if they're kept around (as they are now) will keep trying the play the patriachal game that fucks them over in hopes of flipping the power structures in their favor... which requires a nearly revolutionary effort as you're fighting against the powers that be. So it is difficult for them to buck the patriarchal narrative that fucks them, because they see a glimmer of hope to become the top dog.

But there is no real freedom there. It's just a very vicious power structure where women are commodified and men are constantly being ranked (with the possibility of being culled for ranking low).

Ultimately, I see the solution being already set in motion.

In my experience, my attractions don't have an extreme amount do with status and are very intuitive. It's about how I feel. They are also very monogamously oriented and love oriented. I can absolutely only have eyes for someone who is not objectively high status. And my guess is that this is not just me. I think it's how feminine sexuality actually is. 

I can see that, if women had things more their way and feminine principled traits like socialization and emotional intelligence were encouraged, then there would likely be a less hierarchical relationship set-up.

It seems that the facts bear that out. Egalitarian hunter gather societies were 3 to 1 in terms of men and women who reproduced respectively. Where patriarchal societies (with hierarchical ranking and strong control over female sexuality) were 17 to 1 in terms of men and women who reproduced respectively. 

So, in a similar way to how (because of the way government serves corporations) there is extreme wealth inequality where it is rigged to where the rich get richer and poor get poorer... in an extreme patriarchy (which is not the situation we're in currently even though we still have many patriarchal elements in the system) you have very wealthy men having multiple wives where the bottom 95% of men don't reproduce at all.

But overall, I see the solution for the individual Incel or man struggling with hierarchy, being to buck this deeply ingrained patriarchal narrative that tells them that they have to compete on this hierarchy to realize that the game is built so that there are a large number of men who lose it. Within that game, the weak ones are only there to justify the strong. And of course someone's self-esteem will be shit if they're attached to that game.

To stop playing that game, all you need to do is be social and meet people... including women. There is a nearly equal number of women to men on the planet. There is no reason for that reproduction disparity to be there at all... especially since women tend to be very aversive to men having mistresses and other wives. 

 

???

Daaaaaamn .

I had a clear sight of how Incels and male activist in general were using females as scapegoat instead of patriarchy itself and the top male rulers ruining their life... But this analysis is much more holistic.  So thanks here too for those insights!

I can't help thinking of that crave millennial and Gen-Z have for figure as such as Elon Musk (which is by the way a perfect case of an elitist, fertile female hoarding "super reproducer" as well) or Jordan Peterson that are literally revered by them while being in fact so toxic to their well-being.

Do you have any idea of what is the root cause (on a psychological level) for this Stockholm syndrome regular men have for masculine elites? It seems to go also hand in hand with this pattern of guys searching desperately the approval of other men. Is this some sort of father complex? A desire for guidance, mentoring? A desire for being approved as enough by the so conditional masculine tribe love? 

[Emerald]

5 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

What a solid piece of evidence that there doesn't exist a single incel on earth. Not.

That argument is based more on emotions than on rationality.

My point is that there are absolutely ZERO men that exist that will be universally panned by all of woman-kind. I know it might feel that way. But it's just not going to happen.

If you're a man... even if you're a solid 1... there will be women out there who are interested in you. 

Will it be harder to find if you're a 1? Yes. Will you eventually find it? Also yes.

And at any rate, most of the guys who are Incels are average guys. There's nothing stopping them from find a girlfriend but them. 

[Parththakkar12]

@Emerald How exactly did you come to the conclusion that the only thing that you need to do is to 'be social'? What does it mean to 'be social' in your  terms?

[Blackhawk]

@Emerald It's not possible to meet every woman on earth.

And also being a incel doesn't mean that you should take any gf, no matter how unattractive she is. I wouldn't want a gf who is a 1 on my attractiveness scale, it would be impossible. I guess now you can say "see, you're not involuntarily single". But I wouldn't demand a 10 either.

And a gf wants the guy to think that she's attractive.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Blackhawk]

@Emerald So should I prove to you and everyone else that I'm a true incel?

How can I prove it? Any suggestions?

Oh yeah you will demand that I do things that are completely impossible for me. Literally impossible. You can't accept the fact that some people are unable to do some things. And I think that's the problem.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Karmadhi]

Females see it from their perspective since they get approached. "Just be social" works for them well.

For guys "just being social" will not work if they are unattractive or have very low self-esteem. They need to learn attraction theory, approach a lot of girls and fail a lot, improve their inner game and even then it may not be enough for some hard cases.

I had plenty of incels tell me they are social but girls do not like them for the reasons i mentioned above.

[Karmadhi]

@Knowledge Hoarder A very small minority, most would be happy with anything.

[Blackhawk]

I'm in the middle. I wouldn't be happy with anything. And I don't require a 10 either.

[Emerald]

3 minutes ago, Etherial Cat said:

@Emerald

Super interesting article. Thanks for sharing this with the forum.

It's a perspective that would benefit alike men and women when it comes to understanding "Incelhood".

???

Daaaaaamn .

I had a clear sight of how Incels and male activist in general were using females as scapegoat instead of patriarchy itself and the top male rulers ruining their life... But this analysis is much more holistic.  So thanks here too for those insights!

I can't help thinking of that crave millennial and Gen-Z have for figure as such as Elon Musk (which is by the way a perfect case of an elitist, fertile female hoarding "super reproducer" as well) or Jordan Peterson that are literally revered by them while being in fact so toxic to their well-being.

Do you have any idea of what is the root cause (on a psychological level) for this Stockholm syndrome regular men have for masculine elites? It seems to go also hand in hand with this pattern of guys searching desperately the approval of other men. Is this some sort of father complex? A desire for guidance, mentoring? A desire for being approved as enough by the so conditional masculine tribe love? 

Haha! I love that picture of Jordan Peterson.

I think it comes down to the traumas associated with anti-feminine indoctrination.

This has gotten better with the widespread acceptance of the LGBTQ community, because lots of people are more accepting of men and women who deviate from gender norms. And this benefits society a lot because it takes the pressure off of everyone (including straight, cisgendered folk) to conform to narrow gender roles.

But having grown up in a small redneck town in Florida where gender roles were still firm in the 90s, there was a real sense of femininity being a sign of weakness for males and females alike. That's why I became very misogynistic at a young age and very resistant to anything traditionally feminine.

But it was especially egregious to be feminine for boys/men. It would guarantee that you'd be bullied and branded as gay... of which homophobia was just the norm then. I was even quite homophobic at the time just because it seen as just the way things are. It wasn't until I was about 13 and had bi and gay friends that I realized that I was being a jerk.

So, there is a pretty rough patriarchal hierarchy that a great many boys/men have been indoctrinated with and learned. And everything about that hierarchy creates a constant anxiety about where each man falls in relation to other men in terms of adherence to the religion of masculinity. And level of masculinity is one of the main things that's scrutinized within this hierarchy. Also, as an extension of that, success with women is scrutinized within that hierarchy.

If fact, I'd say that most men who are really focused towards have a lot of sex with a lot of women are really coming from a concern for where they fall in the masculinity hierarchy... and not as much with the potential for pleasure within the sexual experiences with those women. The concern is more one of status than one of pleasure.

So given that there are tons of social expectations and social traumas that come as a result of deviating from those expectations, it makes sense that men are really caught up in that patriarchal hierarchy, even as it chews up their self-esteem. 

There's also a lot of meaning there that must be unlearned.

If you imagine someone who has been told that the meaning of their life is to earn a lot of money. And that person creates their identity in relation to that understanding of "the meaning of life is to earn money." And then, it's like money is abolished. And for better or for worse, that person has that identity broken down because the thing they were basing their identity off of no longer exists.

It would be the same thing to let go of patriarchal hierarchical understanding. There's so much experience and meaning and identity shaping going on there. It would be a real death to let go of. Like a compete upending of the worldview... which is hard for anyone.

And I would guess that this understanding of society wasn't something that just so happened to fall into place.

I think it's very useful for elite men (and elite people in general) to keep non-elite men playing this losing game. That way, these men keep directing their anger and aggression downward towards other non-elite men and women... as opposed to getting together and directing all that masculine aggression upwards towards the powers that be.

If you can keep men playing this game, it's a way of diffusing and sublimating their revolutionary power-disrupting energy towards even more marginalized people... and thus enforcing the power structures that be. 

It's the oldest trick of the powers that be. Get the men to use their privilege and power to further subjugate women so that they don't band together and disrupt the powers that be... and further enforce the subjugation of the powers that be by subjugating women. Get the white people to use their privilege and power to further subjugate non-white people so that the white people don't band together and disrupt the powers that be... and further enforce the subjugation of the powers that be by subjugating non-white people. 

None of it is on accident. When you create a hierarchy, you can keep the people always looking to level up while stepping on the people below them. And this is how those at the very top keep their power. And the rest of the hierarchy polices and subjugates itself. 

[Emerald]

23 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@Emerald How exactly did you come to the conclusion that the only thing that you need to do is to 'be social'? What does it mean to 'be social' in your  terms?

Have a wider social circle, with 150+ people and go out regularly to meet new people.

There will be plenty of opportunities to meet women. 

[Parththakkar12]

Just now, Emerald said:

Have a wider social circle, with 150+ people and go out regularly to meet new people.

There will be plenty of opportunities to meet women. 

That's it? 'Meeting women'?

Ah, that's how it works for women. You just 'meet guys' and things just magically work out, right?! Right.

[Blackhawk]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

Have a wider social circle, with 150+ people and go out regularly to meet new people.

There will be plenty of opportunities to meet women. 

Sigh, this is hopeless.

"Just get a social circle with 150+ people and go out all the time."

Might as well say "fly to the moon by flapping with your arms."

[Emerald]

22 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

@Emerald It's not possible to meet every woman on earth.

And also being a incel doesn't mean that you should take any gf, no matter how unattractive she is. I wouldn't want a gf who is a 1 on my attractiveness scale, it would be impossible. I guess now you can say "see, you're not involuntarily single". But I wouldn't demand a 10 either.

And a gf wants the guy to think that she's attractive.

If a man is a 5 on the attractiveness scale but refuses to date a woman who is a 5 because he only wants 10s, then he isn't really INVOLUNTARILY celibate. 

He is choosing to wait for a woman who is a 10 to drop into his lap. It's his choice. He is VOLUNTARILY celibate.

But if a man who is a 5 can't get attracted to a woman who is a 5, then that's a bigger issue for him.

He'll either have to find ways to make himself more attractive or he'll have to work through his emotional blocks that only enable him to be attracted to women who look like supermodels. 

[Blackhawk]

1 minute ago, Emerald said:

If a man is a 5 on the attractiveness scale but refuses to date a woman who is a 5 because he only wants 10s, then he isn't really INVOLUNTARILY celibate. 

He is choosing to wait for a woman who is a 10 to drop into his lap. It's his choice. He is VOLUNTARILY celibate.

But if a man who is a 5 can't get attracted to a woman who is a 5, then that's a bigger issue for him.

He'll either have to find ways to make himself more attractive or he'll have to work through his emotional blocks that only enable him to be attracted to women who look like supermodels. 

I guess I'm a 5, and I can't get a gf who is 5. So I'm involuntarily celibate.

[Emerald]

1 minute ago, Blackhawk said:

Sigh, this is hopeless.

"Just get a social circle with 150+ people and go out all the time."

Might as well say "fly to the moon by flapping with your arms."

Here's the first step...

Go meet 5 men and 5 women this week. Start building your circle. Start getting used to socializing. 

Flex your extraversion muscles. 

 

[Blackhawk]

Just now, Emerald said:

Here's the first step...

Go meet 5 men and 5 women this week. Start building your circle. Start getting used to socializing. 

Flex your extraversion muscles. 

Impossible request again. Completely impossible. You're projecting yourself and your life on me. I literally can't meet 5 women and 5 men in a week.

[Emerald]

Just now, Blackhawk said:

I guess I'm a 5, and I can't get a gf who is 5. So I'm involuntarily celibate.

If you're a 5, you won't have any issues find a woman who's a 5 who's interested in you.

I'll tell you a really obvious secret... most women are attracted to men.

If you're a man and you're a 5, and you have a social circle, you'll do just fine.

[Blackhawk]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

you have a social circle, you'll do just fine.

Which I don't. I'm naturally hardwired to not be social. Not everyone are social, nor can become social. Or are even likable.

"Just get a social circle. Easy peasy."

Facepalm.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Parththakkar12]

4 minutes ago, Emerald said:

I'll tell you a really obvious secret... most women are attracted to men.

Very rarely do you hear women say this though. It's mostly 'you're doing this wrong, you can't even do this much', etc. Why is that?

[Emerald]

25 minutes ago, Knowledge Hoarder said:

@Emerald There are many so called "incels", whose standards in regards to women's looks are just too damn high. Like, they want supermodels and shit, but aren't willing to change themselves, or make themselves more attractive. So they're really voluntary celibate. Pretty paradoxical?

 

Yeah... absolutely. There's a lot of that. And it's pretty off-putting for women because most women have pretty serious insecurities about their looks. I've been scrutinizing my looks and dealing with body image issues since I was like 4.

So, when a guy who's a 5 is like "10s or nothing!" it jumps right on those issues and I immediately close up... even if I would have otherwise found him attractive.

And I'm pretty sure that's the case for most women... even 10s. It is the high bar for female beauty that's a huge turn-off because it jumps right on the nerves and is the female version of emasculation. 

If a guy can't appreciate more modest beauty, I nope right out of there because it threatens to tread on my deepest insecurities. 

So, it is like a Voluntary Celibacy and shooting one's self in the foot all at once.