Workaholism - a way to escape closeness and intimacy?

[Vzdoh]

15 hours ago, RickyFitts said:

I don't think this situation is workable at the moment, to be honest, I think you probably need to remove yourself from it altogether - maybe he needs that, maybe your absence will cause him to reconsider his priorities in life. 

I was thinking about it. But I think it will come across as a manipulation. I am strongly against manipulating anyone to do anything.

[Vzdoh]

15 hours ago, Nahm said:

Maybe ‘successful’ in this case is a house of cards, and he’s avoiding the intuitive knowing of this. He might have a seemingly fulfilling self image going (“happy” with myself because of what people think, how I’m seen, how important I am to the company / my friends & family), and not quite at the point of allowing the facade to burn away and the actuality to be. That ‘burning away’ would be most intimate for him, and thus he would then be most intimately available, for you. 

Yes. There is definitely an underlying deep motivation behind working so hard. He is already quite successful and has quite a bit of savings to even stop working now and retire already. Yet, he is exhausting himself with work. I genuinely care about him and don't want him to be in this workaholism pattern for another 10+ years when he gets to 60 and realizes that he is all alone, his parents died and he has nobody in his life to share it with. I am very sad and upset about how he works himself into the ground. :((((

15 hours ago, Nahm said:

What confuses the issue is that you support the house of cards, by making it about you (not putting yourself in his shoes). If you put yourself in his shoes, you’d realize you’re doing the same thing. Your connotation of success actually supports his workaholism. This is the underlying attraction (your belief at at play on the lens) both of you seem captive to but unaware of. There isn’t “successful”, and then this other thing… time for a relationship, joy, fun, happiness, etc. That is success. True, or actual success. He doesn’t have to work that much, he chooses to, but does not realize why, or that he does. He thinks he’s “taking care of everyone”, and you support that belief… while all evidence is to the contrary. 

How do I support the house of cards? And why do you think I am not putting myself into his shoes? Why do you think I am doing exactly the same thing?

In my life, I had a period where I prioritized work, not me and my life and simply enjoying being. I have changed significantly since then. And although I think financial freedom and success are important, for me its not the priority in life anymore. I lead a balanced lifestyle right now. I work, but I have flexible hours and dedicate a lot of time to exercise, meditation, self-actualization, social life, and overall growth. He always says he envies that I can go for a swim in the middle of the day or I spend my weekends engaging in sports and social activities because he chooses to work over the weekend. So I do not think I am projecting or supporting his house of cards in any way. I am actually sharing with him a lot on mindfulness, life balance, life purpose, and fulfillment. I love what I do - it's my 2nd career - a hobby turned into a full-time job and I am really passionate about what I do, but I do not overwork even that I probably could because I love capital markets/investments so much! Seeing me enjoying what I do and being really passionate about my life purpose, he even started considering leaving his current job that he hates and potentially opening his own business. So, in summary, I have been in his shoes, working on a job I hated and I left that job and completely recreated myself and moved into the industry that I am super passionate about and became successful in it. I think I am a good example for him that it is possible. The problem is he is not doing much to execute the plan. :(((

[Vzdoh]

15 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Vzdoh What makes you think he's actively trying to escape intimacy? It doesn't seem like that to me. Being a workaholic is a separate condition. I don't think it has to do with you or the relationship.

Perhaps a better approach would be to address the workaholism problem, and discuss it with him directly instead of going into guessing mode.

In any case, communication is key in relationships. If something is bothering you, the other person should know about it, and that's an absolute condition. Otherwise, you're not really in a relationship to begin with.

You are funny! Read up materials on addictions. They are always a way to escape reality and deep connection and intimacy. That's why they are compulsive and very hard to stop. Every addict has a deep-rooted fear of being intimate and truly vulnerable in close relationships and addictions are how addicts escape that fear. 

Yeah, I know communication is the key. I will talk to him about it and how it makes me feel.

[Vzdoh]

5 hours ago, mamad said:

@Vzdoh he is a good guy dont lose him. we all have different moods and struggles in our journey . if he tries his best to still be intimate in this hard time for him then he could not be scaping from you.  just give him time like a month or two to pass this phase and stay supportive like what he did with your mom issue. if it didnt pass then have the hard talk.

I was thinking in the same line of thought. But the trouble is I will then have to be in an unfulfilling relationship for the next 1-2 months, waiting patiently until one day in the future it becomes better. That's a miserable way to be in a relationship. I don't think it will change. At least I highly doubt it. He has been always working weekends and late nights. Just in the beginning of the relationship, he was carving out time for me twice a week, but that was mostly at the expense of his "me" time. That's why I felt really bad about it. So kinda doubt wait and see strategy is a good one.

[Roy]

How much time per week do you need to spend with him to be fulfilled in the relationship?

If everything else about your bond is healthy, and you feel you love each other...... perhaps this is the test of patience until you move in together?

If you were cohabiting you would probably feel much more content and secure in this even if he maintained his high work load.

[Vzdoh]

3 hours ago, modmyth said:

At what point can you distinctly say that this happened? (I can't really answer this question since I don't really know your situation well enough.) Perhaps there was always something intrinsically unhealthy at the root of it, emotionally?

Is there a special history of like... cultural workaholism, or something in his background that encourages that behaviour?

As an example, I used to be really involved with academics; it was what I was raised to do well and prioritize as well. And I was very, very good at it. Not exactly having especially good grades, but producing meaningful content that set me apart from my peers. I was actually encouraged to prioritize academics by my parents at the expense of my health, especially my emotional and psychological health. I didn't really feel like I was doing something valid otherwise. This is what "putting something first" means.

I had a natural love of learning and it got kind of twisted.

Vzdoh => He was always working late nights and weekends but did carve out time for me before. I met workaholics who are really passionate about what they do like you with learning/academics. In this case, it is even harder to stop being a workaholic, because it's your true life passion and purpose. In his case, he truly hates his company culture and his work. But yet continues to self-destruct working so much. This is what I don't understand at all!
 

Isn't there an issue here (mainly having read other posts of yours) where you value him highly (and men and general) for his success?  It's not like all of the motives for becoming materially successful are "positive" or "conscious" ones, as if you could so easily separate one from the other. Sometimes you start with positive motives, or perhaps there is no other purposeful, obvious path anyway, and then your other shadows get dragged into it.

Vzdoh => For me success is an initial filtering criterion, but this is not THE CRITERIA I am ONLY looking for. I can forgo a more successful guy for a man who is less successful perhaps, but more balanced and more in touch with his emotions and feelings and life purpose. So I do not think I am projecting the message - Be successful, otherwise, I don't need you or accept you.

Unfortunately, I think if you love him for being successful, it's probably a comorbid factor in his addiction. Like... you might be giving him the message that him and his success is more important than him as a person or his wellbeing when it comes down to it, based on how you treat him and how you prioritize valuing him. Or mixed messages. Or perhaps your relationship is built on this bedrock or premise. Its sometimes a subtle thing. You could be feeling a lot of concern otherwise (because now once was "positive" is now "too much"), but when push comes to shove, what do you really value? What will it take for you to leave him? (This isn't meant to be accusatory, by the way.)

Vzdoh=> I value material success, but I value a more balanced life, where the definition of success for me truly looks like this. 

You found your purpose and passion in life - ikigai - where you do what you truly love and are passionate about, it also helps others - the idea is what you do is always somehow needs to serve others, I see the deepest fulfillment in this. At the same time, you earn decent money from what you love to do. This is a true IKIGAI for me. On top of this, you lead a balanced life, where the main objective is to become a better version of yourself, to learn to love yourself more and to spread that vibe to others and the world. Self-growth and self-actualization are super important to me too! So I am projecting this into the world.

If this is what you value, and this is what your partner values, it's going to take A LOT to convince him otherwise on some deep, moving level.

And yes, it would bother and concern me. I have had (/have) people close to me addicted as well. But an addiction is first about that person, and making it all about yourself first and how you feel, and how they need to change... I get feeling that way. I can relate. But it's not going to help. Probably the less you take it all personally, the more you might be able to do something. And sometimes all you can do is to be present for someone. Or alternatively, just leave and/or take care of yourself if it becomes too much. And don't enable whenever possible.

Vzdoh => I do not take his addiction personally, but since we are in a relationship, it is affecting me of course. I am not making it about me, I am simply realizing that this is an addiction and how it is affecting our relationship. 

In your view, what is going to help in this situation? I haven't seen any other advice apart from take care of yourself and leave him or stay and wait for things to pass/change on their own. I can be present for him only if we actually spend more time together, but due to his work schedule, we are not. So I do not see how I can be more present when I don't see him physically? Any ideas?

Vzdoh=> btw, what made u realize that you led an unbalanced life with your addiction to academics? Any specific life event? Or health issue?

 

[Vzdoh]

15 minutes ago, Roy said:

How much time per week do you need to spend with him to be fulfilled in the relationship?

If everything else about your bond is healthy, and you feel you love each other...... perhaps this is the test of patience until you move in together?

If you were cohabiting you would probably feel much more content and secure in this even if he maintained his high work load.

At least twice a week, I don't think he can do more than that even if he tries. That's why I was thinking about cohabitation because then physical closeness would be no issue. 

My love languages are physical touch - 40% and acts of service - 30%. He does a lot of stuff for me, so meeting my need in acts of service department fully, but lacking in physical touch big time and this is my primary love language. That's why I feel unfulfilled and disconnected.

[Roy]

@Vzdoh I guess the golden question is - do you value him and the relationship enough to wait for that day to come? How much is it worth to you, and what sort of future can you anticipate?

Don't think only about the worst cases scenarios though. Also imagine the best ones 

I just noticed the way you worded the title,..... as if he's being somewhat deliberate about working to get away from you? Is that not how he was when you first met him, and did he make any of it clear at the start like, "Hey just so you know I work a lot and have a lot of responsibility with my career." ?

[Vzdoh]

31 minutes ago, Roy said:

@Vzdoh I guess the golden question is - do you value him and the relationship enough to wait for that day to come? How much is it worth to you, and what sort of future can you anticipate?

Don't think only about the worst cases scenarios though. Also imagine the best ones 

I just noticed the way you worded the title,..... as if he's being somewhat deliberate about working to get away from you? Is that not how he was when you first met him, and did he make any of it clear at the start like, "Hey just so you know I work a lot and have a lot of responsibility with my career." ?

You are reading too much into the title. I do believe that all addicts are addicts because they are running from a deep fear of being vulnerable, authentic, void of the meaning of life, lack of intimacy in relationships etc. I did not mean that he does that on purpose. He is not a malicious type of guy. That's why I am not angry at him for this, I am just truly sad....He is unaware of what he is doing to himself. First step is to become more aware and realise WHY? he makes himself work so much? what needs he is meeting this way? 

I value him a lot, that's why this post. If I didn't I would simply have already moved on. I have plenty of options with guys. But I do not want to simply sit and wait when he figures this out on his own, because awareness can hit him in 5-10-15 years from now or never at all! And I would waste my life in an unfulfilling relationship, waiting for a miracle to happen. That's what majority of women do - they hope the guy will change. I outright go in with the assumption that he probably won't, unless he becomes more aware of whats going on and how it truly impacts him and his relationships.

He was working quite hard as well when we met but he carved out time out of his "me" time to see me twice a week. Now it kinda shifted, especially after the situation with my mom's crisis and when I told him I loved him. Maybe he thinks that he won me over or something and can now go back to his previous routine of working non-stop and relationship will take care of itself since I love him anyways. Not sure really the thinking process behind this and why this changed. But I suspect - pure intuition - that he felt a bit too much intimacy and got scared of it. Hard to judge. Will need to talk to him about it.

[Roy]

@Vzdoh was just trying to get to the center of how you feel about it, didn't mean to assume anything. Apologies.

Yes I'd carefully think about and craft what kind of conversation you are going to have with him. Is he high in self-awareness and receptive? It might be that he knows he needs to balance his life more but it's just a habit he's "grooved" into. Do you think with some gentle support he could redirect that river of his life, so to speak?

And most importantly do you intuit he wants to?

[Vzdoh]

10 minutes ago, Roy said:

@Vzdoh was just trying to get to the center of how you feel about it, didn't mean to assume anything. Apologies.

Yes I'd carefully think about and craft what kind of conversation you are going to have with him. Is he high in self-awareness and receptive? It might be that he knows he needs to balance his life more but it's just a habit he's "grooved" into. Do you think with some gentle support he could redirect that river of his life, so to speak?

And most importantly do you intuit he wants to?

Oh, no problem! We are bound to make assumptions

Yeah! That's what I am mulling over - how to craft this convo from the place of genuine care for him and with love and empathy, but yet be crystal clear on what my needs are in the relationship and how some parts are not working for me at the moment. Tricky business! :)))

I think he is relatively aware cause he is quite mature and went through a lot relationship-wise. He told me about this absolutely traumatizing story of how at age 25 he got a girl pregnant and he didn't see anything long-term with her, but she nonetheless decided to keep the baby. And then how the entire drama of that unfolded - with her trying to manipulate him into committing to her - i.e. getting married - he never married her - but out of a high sense of responsibility he took care of her and the child and tried to make things work so that he can have access to his son as she took it out on him with basic child availability manipulation tactics. There is part of his fault most likely in this too as he avoids talking about difficult subjects that can upset other people, most likely if he was super upfront with her about his lack of intention to marry her ever and not seeing her as a life partner but letting her know that he will support the child regardless. Maybe she wouldn't be that triggered. His behavior probably confused the shit out of her I reckon - that partially explains abusive and aggressive behavior towards him in my mind.

The struggle I am in is from one side it seems like he is aware, but at the same time, he continues doing what he knows is bad for him. So maybe it's like mind/logical level realization, but not heart/feelings deeper level realization. And I wonder how to support him with getting to that deeper feeling level of realizing what he does to himself? And if I can be helpful at this at all?

He likes me a lot, so I can try to get him to spend time with me doing self-care stuff and sports which he enjoys, and try organizing this time for him on a consistent basis for him to realize after a while that he enjoys this time and would love to experience more of it. It's like if he drops work, there is gonna be avoid, right? And I want to slowly perhaps fill in the traditional weekend rest time with something meaningful, so he does not feel that void, but a positive switch instead. What do you think?

[RickyFitts]

4 hours ago, Vzdoh said:

I was thinking about it. But I think it will come across as a manipulation. I am strongly against manipulating anyone to do anything.

Don't worry about how it will - or might - come across, just have the courage to follow what your inner guidance is telling you to do. Don't allow your choices to be guided by emotions like guilt or fear. 

And never lose sight of the fact, darling Vzdoh, that your needs matter, too.

Edited August 15, 2021 by RickyFitts

[Gesundheit2]

4 hours ago, Vzdoh said:

You are funny! Read up materials on addictions. They are always a way to escape reality and deep connection and intimacy. That's why they are compulsive and very hard to stop. Every addict has a deep-rooted fear of being intimate and truly vulnerable in close relationships and addictions are how addicts escape that fear.

You don't have to take that as a dogma. Addiction is not a way to escape anything. That's just a definition/story you're addicted to 

In simple terms, addiction is a complex of reoccurring patterns of behaviors that tend to be compulsive. That's an objective definition prior to personal interpretations. How you interpret it is up to you, i.e. subjective.

I used to have many addictions and have been working on them since January 2021. A lot of them were a way to escape the harsh reality that I'm living in. But none of them had anything to do with intimacy. In fact, intimacy was one of them. If anything, I was escaping my full masculinity with intimacy, thanks to cultural upbringing.

As a man, intimacy doesn't even show on my radar anymore. And when I contemplate it, I only see it as childish desire/behavior, like a child attached to his mommy because he can't live on his own, because he's weak and immature. I wasn't able to completely let go of intimacy until recently. And I have to say, this is definitely a superior way of being.

Have you heard of co-dependent relationships? Attractive men are not co-dependent, and that's what makes them attractive, because a woman can be needy and co-dependent around them.

You said you're at Yellow, so there's a good chance you're just overthinking this.

Edited August 15, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[RickyFitts]

5 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

You don't have to take that as a dogma. Addiction is not a way to escape anything. That's just a definition/story you're addicted to 

When I've examined my own addictive tendencies, I've seen pretty quickly that they're an attempt to avoid something, all right - namely, myself. I wouldn't have realised this, though, if I hadn't examined my behaviour more closely.

[Gesundheit2]

17 minutes ago, RickyFitts said:

When I've examined my own addictive tendencies, I've seen pretty quickly that they're an attempt to avoid something, all right - namely, myself. I wouldn't have realised this, though, if I hadn't examined my behaviour more closely.

Sure, me too, as I stated earlier. I was just deconstructing the belief related to intimacy.

[Vzdoh]

1 hour ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Sure, me too, as I stated earlier. I was just deconstructing the belief related to intimacy.

Deep connection to anyone is impossible without emotional intimacy. And a man who lacks that ability - ability to be emotionally intimate in a relationship - is not attractive to me at all. It's complete BS in my view that women are attracted to men who lack intimacy building skills. Women who are healthy psychologically, want intimacy with their partner. And if the guy lacks in that department, he will most likely be in a relationship with an unhealthy co dependent female. 

I believe that I am quite healthy and its been a long time since I chased emotionally unavailable men. Now I get immediately turned off by them and lose interest. 

A truly healthy man is the one who integrated feminine part into himself and emotionally available and able to be emotionally intimate with his woman. If it's not the case, I am out. 

[Windappreciator]

@Vzdoh don't worry too much about your needs getting met

[Vzdoh]

4 hours ago, modmyth said:

Have you encouraged him to seek out therapy (or some other support system to help him deal with this, it could just even be for "general life stress and perspective", and not just workaholism, at least not from the outset). Or alternatively, even having an outside emotional support system might help. If he's open to it. Therapy isn't everyone's thing; it's not even my thing because I tend to DIY everything, but I know it works for a lot of people.

Does he have good emotional and psychological awareness (relative to you, I guess). Can you have good conversations about this subject matter? Is he interested in this stuff even if it's hard for him to talk about? Because if he's not, you're probably fighting a losing battle here.

Is there a way you can help him get in touch with a positive sense of purpose that already exists, or maybe where there is potential? The thing is that if there is no viable, conceivable alternative, not even idealistically and unrealistic, how could he imagine moving to something else? I don't remember you mentioning much about this directly. Is there anything that he's deeply passionate about?
 

I had to step outside of the whole thing for a while to really realize how unhealthy it was, which was not easy at all. But towards the end, before I left. I was often constantly agitated, and to deal with that, I tend to work longer and harder, and to focus on doing everything better instead of dealing with what was at the root emotionally of it all, which to be honest, it is not at all realistic on the type of schedule I was on at the time. I have had enough issues in my life where dealing with it has been like a full time job afterwards.

I had about 1-2 breaks towards the end where I just told too much to people who were like mentors/ colleagues (like trauma related things), and normally I was very strict about boundaries and not mentioning things from my past or personal life too much. And then after I stopped, I was like ok. I think I could probably find a way to manage it for years, but it was only going to get worse over time, not better.

Then when I stopped, there was like a massive fatigue crash and also a complete void of meaning. Like.. the more you have, the more you feel like you have to lose. I realized I had been running on adrenaline for a while. I drank way too much coffee and never slept enough which is supposed to be considered standard stuff but I've always had a very sensitive body. Like some people can sustain multiple unhealthy habits for years and years and I've not been one of those people. I realized that I hadn't even given myself the space to consider if I should be doing anything differently either. It all becomes a sort of habit you either can't conceptualize or that you feel afraid to opt out of on some level, to the point that you don't even believe its a real possibility at all. It becomes easier to believe that its not.

...

Actually now that I think about it, maybe somehow removing him from his work environment and habits where he might see a different perspective might help. Some people might have perspective shifts at meditation retreats, perhaps. IDK. If workholism is a long time habit or tendency, you might need more time though, or a very strict and drastic shift in habits suddenly. Like quite a bit of time. But if you're married to your job, where do you get that kind of time? Probably not from taking a vacation. ...

Another thing which often seems to work for people (which is hardly planned) is that having a real crisis tends to force a shift in perspective and a reevaluation of priorities.

 

I am thinking about suggesting seeing a therapist. I even know one who speaks German and specialises in addictions. But the question is if he can find time to do it. He is very bad at taking care of himself. Only maybe if I go to the sessions with him maybe?

 

As for his passions, he is an engineer at heart and enjoys making things work and innovation/imorovement in technology to make things work better. So I actually tried talking to him about it and he felt quite motivated. But I think I need to keep reminding him about it as an option. He even started the process of creating his own company where he would be advising on technological innovation and consulting/selling new technology methods. Will encourage him more to look into this. ❤️

[Vzdoh]

2 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@Vzdoh don't worry too much about your needs getting met

Heh? R u joking or is it a serious statement? 

[Windappreciator]

@Vzdoh it is a serious statement. Why wouldn't it be?