Workaholism - a way to escape closeness and intimacy?

[Vzdoh]

Hello everyone, 

This is probably more a question for guys. 

My BF is very successful and works quite a bit. Lately he has been working pretty much around the clock. Having full day conf calls even on Saturdays and Sundays. 

He tells me that he doesn't like his company culture and the workload, but yet does very little to change the situation. He is very responsible person, so I guess partially he works so much because he thinks if he doesn't, things gonna fail under his watch. 

I tried to be supportive and encouraging to let him move into a realisation that he needs to do something about this over working situation. As he barely has time for himself - like basic needs like sleep, sports, self care.

I also feel super bad when he carves out time to see me because I understand that later on he will need to work over the weekend and I took away his "me" time. I feel awful about it and of course it makes me super sad and takes all the joy out from interacting with each other. Cause I am thinking that he could have used this time to do something for himself - like sleep in, go cycling or see his friends. 

I think this is some kind of avoidance programming playing out. But I feel I have no right to diagnose him or hold the mirror for him to look at the situation honestly. I feel like he needs to arrive atthis realisation by himself. 

And obviously as a result of all of this, I feel bad about continuing the relationship and I don't want to become nagging to ask for more time or to advice him that he needs to cut down on work. That's just not what I feel is the right thing to do. So I am kinda lost as to what to do. 

He treats me well, calls me every other day, texts me every day, brought me bags and bags of food when i was in quarantine for 2 weeks and supported me whilst I had a health crisis with my mom. So it seems he cares for me deeply, but at the same time he is probably using work excuse to not go deeper into true intimacy and closeness and I feel like without that I won't be able to continue this relationship. I don't want to drop him. He is really a great guy! 

So I am kinda at a loss here about what to do? And if I can do anything at all? Its impossible to change the person. I don't have rosy glasses about that. 

What do you think? How would you approach things if you were in my shoes? 

Just sharing my thoughts outloud here. 

[tsuki]

@Vzdoh I would suggest to flip this thinking around and focus on yourself instead of thinking about making "his" situation better.

From what you wrote:

1 hour ago, Vzdoh said:

I tried to be supportive and encouraging to let him move into a realisation that he needs to do something about this over working situation. As he barely has time for himself - like basic needs like sleep, sports, self care.

This is not being supportive. You are trying to illicit some effect, like making him look inwards. Why?

1 hour ago, Vzdoh said:

I think this is some kind of avoidance programming playing out. But I feel I have no right to diagnose him or hold the mirror for him to look at the situation honestly. I feel like he needs to arrive atthis realisation by himself. 

This is correct, your emotions and self-interest are at stake. Focus on your self-interest and address it openly.

To me, it seems like you feel neglected in a relationship. That he prioritizes his work over you and is not giving you the effort that would satisfy you. When did he do something romantic for you? Maybe you feel overwhelmed by the chores and want some fresh air?

If that is the case, then try telling him openly and honestly about how you feel and let him ponder this. I don't know the state of your relationship. If he is listens to your difficulties, then allow him some time to ponder and address it. But, if he shrugs it off, chooses his work over you, than that is an answer in of itself and you should ponder that.

Edited August 13, 2021 by tsuki

[Vzdoh]

1 hour ago, tsuki said:

@Vzdoh I would suggest to flip this thinking around and focus on yourself instead of thinking about making "his" situation better.

From what you wrote:

This is not being supportive. You are trying to illicit some effect, like making him look inwards. Why?

This is correct, your emotions and self-interest are at stake. Focus on your self-interest and address it openly.

To me, it seems like you feel neglected in a relationship. That he prioritizes his work over you and is not giving you the effort that would satisfy you. When did he do something romantic for you? Maybe you feel overwhelmed by the chores and want some fresh air?

If that is the case, then try telling him openly and honestly about how you feel and let him ponder this. I don't know the state of your relationship. If he is listens to your difficulties, then allow him some time to ponder and address it. But, if he shrugs it off, chooses his work over you, than that is an answer in of itself and you should ponder that.

Why? I was just trying to help him introspect. Cause current overwork situation is making him miserable in all senses, but yet he continues with it. So my heart aches to see this. That's why. 

 

@tzuki How would you define supportive in this situation? 

Also, what do you mean by self-interest here? 

I haven't seen him for almost 2 months, because I was away in another country and now in self quarantine. So we haven't done anything romantic or seen each other for quite some time. 

 

I feel not exactly neglected, because he does find time to call me every other day and texts me every day, but all of this is generic chatting and kinda like check in with each other. Real emotional connection and intimacy is missing. Most likely he is using this daily "check in" strategy to feel like everything is ok and in his mind it is "a connection" or a "compensation" for real connection and closeness. 

I haven't openly told him about how I feel yet cause I want to do it in person after my self-quarantine is over. Over text or on a call its difficult to discuss such things. I just so far expressed concern about his wellbeing and him overworking himself and encouraged him to spend more time on himself, doing stuff he likes and enjoys. But didn't straight out told him that he is prioratising work over me and how it makes me feel. 

Does it make sense to actually word it that way? That I feel neglected and prioratises work over the relationship? What would I achieve with this kind of language, except alienation and defensiveness? I do want to communicate my needs openly, but I do not want to be confrontational or angry or drama about it. 

[Preety_India]

This is not an example of supportive behavior. 

I think you don't love him enough. 

At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the post. 

Because you're trying to decide things that he needs to decide. 

In that case, you should let him go and he can find someone who truly loves and cares about him. 

 

[tsuki]

44 minutes ago, Vzdoh said:

I feel not exactly neglected, because he does find time to call me every other day and texts me every day, but all of this is generic chatting and kinda like check in with each other. Real emotional connection and intimacy is missing. Most likely he is using this daily "check in" strategy to feel like everything is ok and in his mind it is "a connection" or a "compensation" for real connection and closeness. 

This is what I meant by being neglected. Not having real, inspired connection, passion, openness, hope, dreams, etc. This is what I call passion - a longing for closeness and intimacy. This is opposite to a mechanic, generic, chatting, checking up on, etc. 

44 minutes ago, Vzdoh said:

I haven't openly told him about how I feel yet cause I want to do it in person after my self-quarantine is over. Over text or on a call its difficult to discuss such things. I just so far expressed concern about his wellbeing and him overworking himself and encouraged him to spend more time on himself, doing stuff he likes and enjoys. But didn't straight out told him that he is prioratising work over me and how it makes me feel. 

This is a good call I think. It's much better to discuss such matters in person. Maybe a part of all of this is that you miss him?
But I think that it is important to let him address what you want openly. Not by manipulating him into introspection and covering it up with an excuse that it's for his own good, because he's a workaholic that avoids intimacy. 

44 minutes ago, Vzdoh said:

Does it make sense to actually word it that way? That I feel neglected and prioratises work over the relationship? What would I achieve with this kind of language, except alienation and defensiveness? I do want to communicate my needs openly, but I do not want to be confrontational or angry or drama about it. 

Yes, the wording may not have been too helpful. I hope that you will be able to find a way to express your emotions honestly, in a way that does not make him feel defensive. Isn't it what you are afraid of, when you talk to him? Expressing what you need?

44 minutes ago, Vzdoh said:

How would you define supportive in this situation? 

Being supportive means that you give space for your husband to do him, and give him whatever he needs in the pursuit of that. That being said, you are a human being, and real support starts with acknowledging the extent of your own boundaries, and what you can, and cannot do. This is the part about self-interest. Your self-interest limits the extent of support you can give to others. If you overreach (like you are right now), then you have to take a step back and take care of your own needs. 

Unconditional support is not possible. In this particular situation it would mean, that you would allow your husband to work as much as he likes and helping him to work even more if that's what he needs. But you can't do that because you want to be intimate with him. So you take a step back and tell it to him. But this is a conflict of interest, and this is why you cannot "fix" him. You are not doing this for him, you are doing this for yourself. And that is not a moral judgement. You have every right to take care of your needs.

It does not make you a bad person. It makes you a person, as opposed to a god.

Edited August 13, 2021 by tsuki

[Parththakkar12]

3 hours ago, Vzdoh said:

What do you think? How would you approach things if you were in my shoes? 

The conversation about this with him would look very different from the conversation with you. Here, I'm going to talk to you about what I'd do if I were in your shoes instead of his shoes.

If I put myself in your perspective, it looks to me like he's completely fine with the way things are going. This is something you're going to have to bite the bullet and face. That's what I'd work on doing if I were in your shoes - face harsh realities about the relationship like these, or looking at details of the relationship that point to truths like these, no matter how inconvenient or uncomfortable or painful.

Then, I would ask myself - Am I happy with the situation? Cuz he is. If I'm not, then I have to think about what to do about it for myself. If I'm not happy, I'd look into my problem with it and solve it on my own time. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't include him or ask for his help if needed, but I would not try to change him or his life too much or even assume that he is being avoidant! Maybe he isn't being avoidant, maybe he just needs to focus on work. Maybe money and success is more important to him than you! I know, harsh to face or even entertain. If that's the case, you have decisions to make.

[Vzdoh]

36 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is not an example of supportive behavior. 

I think you don't love him enough. 

At least that's the vibe I'm getting from the post. 

Because you're trying to decide things that he needs to decide. 

In that case, you should let him go and he can find someone who truly loves and cares about him. 

 

I love him and I told him about it. If I didn't love him and didn't care about the relationship with him, I would simply drop him already and moved on.

 

[Preety_India]

13 minutes ago, Vzdoh said:

I love him and I told him about it. If I didn't love him and didn't care about the relationship with him, I would simply drop him already and moved on.

 

What does he generally say to you when you tell him you love him.. 

[Vzdoh]

34 minutes ago, tsuki said:

This is what I meant by being neglected. Not having real, inspired connection, passion, openness, hope, dreams, etc. This is what I call passion - a longing for closeness and intimacy. This is opposite to a mechanic, generic, chatting, checking up on, etc. 

I feel the longing for closeness and intimacy and I am in general more expressive with my feelings. He is less expressive and does things for me instead of saying things. But I do feel like there is a distance intentional or unintentional. And I don't want to fix him or behave like there is something wrong with him. With his actions he shows me he cares about me, but true closeness-wise, I feel like he is in his own bubble and maybe this level of intimacy is ok and normal for him.

34 minutes ago, tsuki said:

This is a good call I think. It's much better to discuss such matters in person. Maybe a part of all of this is that you miss him?
But I think that it is important to let him address what you want openly. Not by manipulating him into introspection and covering it up with an excuse that it's for his own good, because he's a workaholic that avoids intimacy. 

I will bring this up when we meet up. Will try to state my needs in a non-aggressive and non-judgemental way and inquire if this level of intimacy and closeness is what he is comfortable with and if more is going to make him feel suffocated of sorts. Then I guess it is an incompatibility in the relational intimacy department and I will have to let him go. Cause I can't really change that about him.

34 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Yes, the wording may not have been too helpful. I hope that you will be able to find a way to express your emotions honestly, in a way that does not make him feel defensive. Isn't it what you are afraid of, when you talk to him? Expressing what you need?

I am not afraid to express what I need. I am afraid of hurting him while I am at it. Because nobody wants to learn that they are doing not enough and another person is unhappy. He does quite a bit actually, so I even think that is not exactly true. So very difficult to communicate while despite what he already does for me, I still feel unhappy and my needs for deeper intimacy are still not met.

34 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Being supportive means that you give space for your husband to do him, and give him whatever he needs in the pursuit of that. That being said, you are a human being, and real support starts with acknowledging the extent of your own boundaries, and what you can, and cannot do. This is the part about self-interest. Your self-interest limits the extent of support you can give to others. If you overreach (like you are right now), then you have to take a step back and take care of your own needs. 

Well! I definitely already stepped back, because I see he is quite busy and I don't want to add stress to that. Also focusing more on expanding my social circle. Also, my needs for connection are mostly met by friends and family. But how do you meet your needs on your own if these are needs that can be met only in a relationship? Like the need for intimacy? I find it hard to figure out how to meet this need outside of a relationship.

34 minutes ago, tsuki said:

Unconditional support is not possible. In this particular situation it would mean, that you would allow your husband to work as much as he likes and helping him to work even more if that's what he needs. But you can't do that because you want to be intimate with him. So you take a step back and tell it to him. But this is a conflict of interest, and this is why you cannot "fix" him. You are not doing this for him, you are doing this for yourself. And that is not a moral judgement. You have every right to take care of your needs.

It does not make you a bad person. It makes you a person, as opposed to a god.

I do feel like I deserve of my needs for intimacy and closeness in the relationship to be met. And that's why I pondering the situation and the relationship because I feel like they are not. I can't force anyone to meet my needs unless they care enough to do it willingly for me. So let's see what happens after we have a chat.

[Vzdoh]

50 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

The conversation about this with him would look very different from the conversation with you. Here, I'm going to talk to you about what I'd do if I were in your shoes instead of his shoes.

If I put myself in your perspective, it looks to me like he's completely fine with the way things are going. This is something you're going to have to bite the bullet and face. That's what I'd work on doing if I were in your shoes - face harsh realities about the relationship like these, or looking at details of the relationship that point to truths like these, no matter how inconvenient or uncomfortable or painful.

Then, I would ask myself - Am I happy with the situation? Cuz he is. If I'm not, then I have to think about what to do about it for myself. If I'm not happy, I'd look into my problem with it and solve it on my own time. This doesn't mean that I wouldn't include him or ask for his help if needed, but I would not try to change him or his life too much or even assume that he is being avoidant! Maybe he isn't being avoidant, maybe he just needs to focus on work. Maybe money and success is more important to him than you! I know, harsh to face or even entertain. If that's the case, you have decisions to make.

Haha! This is exactly what I am doing! Trying to face the reality and the actual situation and also look into how it all makes me feel, however uncomfortable. That's what this post is all about actually. And I don't think he actually knows/understands how I feel right now because we haven't seen each other and I don't like talking about feelings, not in physical presence with the person. So it's safe to assume that he has no idea that he is doing anything wrong most likely.  

[Vzdoh]

13 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

What does he generally say to you when you tell him you love him.. 

You want to assess and conclude that he does not love me? :)))

I told him I loved him when he was super supportive in my mom's crisis to which he replied that I am a very special person to him and the way he said it sounded almost like L word, but not quite. He says little, he does things for me. And when it comes to men, I judge how they feel about me based on what they do, not what they say.

[Preety_India]

Just now, Vzdoh said:

You want to assess and conclude that he does not love me? :)))

I told him I loved him when he was super supportive in my mom's crisis to which he replied that I am a very special person to him and the way he said it sounded almost like L word, but not quite. He says little, he does things for me. And when it comes to men, I judge how they feel about me based on what they do, not what they say.

I think he does love you. But something is still missing which is hard to figure out because his part is not here. So no idea how he feels. 

Relationships are very complex. At the end of the day, only honest communication with a person brings out the true picture. 

 

[tsuki]

3 minutes ago, Vzdoh said:

Also, my needs for connection are mostly met by friends and family. But how do you meet your needs on your own if these are needs that can be met only in a relationship? Like the need for intimacy? I find it hard to figure out how to meet this need outside of a relationship.

You cannot meet a need for intimacy on your own. That is the point of intimate relationships .

The truth is that relationships are not simple. They are multi-faceted and it may be entirely possible that there are other factors that make you stay with this man even if he does not meet your needs for intimacy. Our therapist taught us that commitment is the single most important factor in keeping the relationship together - even if there is no intimacy, or passion. If you are committed to him, and he is committed to you, then you both will do your best to give each other as much as you possibly can. But a person that fits 100% with you does not exist. There will be compromises, strife, suffering and growth. And there will also be love, intimacy, passion and all the other good things. So in the end, the first question is whether you want to be with this man, or not by weighing the WHOLE relationship with him. The second question is whether he reciprocates this decision. Then, you live with understanding that everything that comes after is because you chose it.

11 minutes ago, Vzdoh said:

I do feel like I deserve of my needs for intimacy and closeness in the relationship to be met. And that's why I pondering the situation and the relationship because I feel like they are not. I can't force anyone to meet my needs unless they care enough to do it willingly for me. So let's see what happens after we have a chat.

indeed!

[Esilda]

@Vzdoh is it a greater level of intimacy you want or is it the loneliness that you struggle to self sooth over? There's definitely some nuanced communication issues I'm feeling, what do you think they might be and how do you they could be worked on?

[Vzdoh]

12 hours ago, modmyth said:

This seems like a pretty classic example of wanting to mould someone (who may not actually want to be moulded, or who may be profoundly conflicted about it). Like you want to, but you don't feel like its possible or you don't have the right.  The latter is overlaying over top of the deeper want/ desire.

there is probably some truth to it. But I do not want to change him as a person. I like him the way he is. But I do want to change his working behavior from what I think is unhealthy to a more balanced situation. Working 7 days a week, not having enough time for yourself and your own self-care are indicators to me that this thing went from being focused on work/ busy with work to full-blown workaholism - and workaholism is an addiction similar to drugs and alcohol and sex addiction. It is viewed more positively by society, but this is an addiction non the less. As someone close to him, I see it for what it is and sit and do nothing, I don't know. If it was alcoholism in your partner and you noticed they are drinking more and more, wouldn't it bother you? But I do understand that until he realizes how harmful it is for him and what fear or needs he is trying to meet with overworking so much, I don't think I can do anything. So I am trying to use my example of living a balanced and happy life, so he sees it and wants the same perhaps? 

Difficult situation.

[Vzdoh]

14 hours ago, Esilda said:

@Vzdoh is it a greater level of intimacy you want or is it the loneliness that you struggle to self sooth over? There's definitely some nuanced communication issues I'm feeling, what do you think they might be and how do you they could be worked on?

I don't feel lonely. I used to a long time ago, but these days, after 7-8 years of ongoing therapy, I feel completely content with being on my own. So it's not loneliness. At least I don't feel this way. It's a genuine desire for true intimacy and closeness in a relationship, because if these things are missing, then why stay in a relationship at all?

He is very polite and considerate and many times he 100% prefers to avoid talking about stuff in a direct manner probably out of fear of hurting my feelings. He is German, so he can be as direct as me. But he is definitely more considerate. And this avoidance of talking about stuff even that it might hurt my feelings is what upsets me the most and actually creates a disconnect and breaks intimacy and openness at least for me. Maybe for him, it is totally fine. So basically whenever it is discomforting for him, either due to him thinking that honesty will hurt me or he is afraid to go deep into his own shit, he just prefers not to talk about it. And this is what kills the connection for me.

[RickyFitts]

I don't think this situation is workable at the moment, to be honest, I think you probably need to remove yourself from it altogether - maybe he needs that, maybe your absence will cause him to reconsider his priorities in life. 

[Nahm]

Maybe ‘successful’ in this case is a house of cards, and he’s avoiding the intuitive knowing of this. He might have a seemingly fulfilling self image going (“happy” with myself because of what people think, how I’m seen, how important I am to the company / my friends & family), and not quite at the point of allowing the facade to burn away and the actuality to be. That ‘burning away’ would be most intimate for him, and thus he would then be most intimately available, for you. 

What confuses the issue is that you support the house of cards, by making it about you (not putting yourself in his shoes). If you put yourself in his shoes, you’d realize you’re doing the same thing. Your connotation of success actually supports his workaholism. This is the underlying attraction (your belief at at play on the lens) both of you seem captive to but unaware of. There isn’t “successful”, and then this other thing… time for a relationship, joy, fun, happiness, etc. That is success. True, or actual success. He doesn’t have to work that much, he chooses to, but does not realize why, or that he does. He thinks he’s “taking care of everyone”, and you support that belief… while all evidence is to the contrary. 

[Gesundheit2]

@Vzdoh What makes you think he's actively trying to escape intimacy? It doesn't seem like that to me. Being a workaholic is a separate condition. I don't think it has to do with you or the relationship.

Perhaps a better approach would be to address the workaholism problem, and discuss it with him directly instead of going into guessing mode.

In any case, communication is key in relationships. If something is bothering you, the other person should know about it, and that's an absolute condition. Otherwise, you're not really in a relationship to begin with.

Edited August 14, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[mamad]

@Vzdoh he is a good guy dont lose him. we all have different moods and struggles in our journey . if he tries his best to still be intimate in this hard time for him then he could not be scaping from you.  just give him time like a month or two to pass this phase and stay supportive like what he did with your mom issue. if it didnt pass then have the hard talk.

Edited August 14, 2021 by mamad