Don't take psychedelics. BAD IDEA. Here's why.

[OBEler]

@Endangered-EGO psychiatry is clear that you should not take psychedelics at all. The whole psychiatric industry is blind to this because they are illegal. And psychiatry doesn't know what psychosis really is (= an altered state of consciousness which doesn't fit to normal one). Of course my girlfriend has still "psychosis" but she doesn't suffer from it. It is more the opposite, she sees it as a gift to see energy and ghosts everywhere. She said, she is constantly tripping on 200 microgram LSD on daily basis without taking anything.  

"'The psychotic drowns in the same waters in which the mystic swims with delight.'"

 

[Nahm]

@Endangered-EGO

Are you open to more probing, specific personal questions? 

 

[Inliytened1]

@Endangered-EGO i think the thing is some people are not spiritually gifted enough to realize God without powerful psychedelics.   I know it seemed I just contradicted myself in another post saying that there are no spiritually gifted people but I was speaking at the Absolute level  I think what @ilan was saying was accurate.  And there will be risks to any spiritual work because spirituality will erase the ego.  And coming back is not guaranteed.  So one needs be serious about spiritual work.  If they are ready and are mentally stable and wish to take psychedelics after meditating for years- then they should do so but do so responsibly.  All my awakenings happened after about 2 weeks of meditating, maybe less.  So I feel if awakening hasn't happened after years of meditation then for you perhaps psychedelics can allow you to reach these states of consciousness that would never be possible for you via meditation 

[Endangered-EGO]

@Breakingthewall I'm aware of that, research is currently being done with ketamine. Let's see how this is going to work out.

 

11 minutes ago, Tim R said:

It's true that you can't always know that, but: in most cases, you actually do know about it. You don't just live a mentally sound life without any issues or salience whatsoever and then bam! suddenly you're psychotic because you've taken 3g of mushrooms. It doesn't work like that. If you have a predisposition for psychosis, you probably have something else too.

That's exactly how it happens man... Do you know what defines you have psychosis/schizophrenia? You don't know you have it. That's the trap of a psychotic delusion. The "something else" can be very subtle too.
 

 

14 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Dude. No. I would agree with you on the dp/dr thing, but most certainly not on the rest. I have had all my awakenings spontaneously and while I was sober. This has nothing whatsoever to do with psychotic predispositions.

DP/DR is Nothingness. Go ask a psychiatrist.

 

17 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Seriously, how do you come up with this stuff? Do you even know what an actual psychosis is? The difference is that with spiritual awakening, you deconstruct your mind in a conscious way.

Spiritual enlightenment is not predisposition for psychosis. You really have to explain that one to me.

When I say "spiritual enlightenment is a predisposition" I mean: "If you go to a psychiatrist and tell him about your awakenings, your no-self etc. He's gonna write down 'predisposition for schizophrenia'". The problem is: How do you differentiate spiritual beliefs and magical beliefs? magical beliefs are a symptom on the schizophrenia spectrum.

 

 

21 minutes ago, Tim R said:

Wouldn't necessarily say so. Spiritual enlightenment has been known and recorded by humans for thousands of years. 

In most cases, there actually is. Because in most cases, you will have some sort of symptomatic which gives you a clue that there's something slightly off. If not that, someone in your family has had psychotic episodes. 

If you want to do an experiment, just go to a psychiatrist and tell him, that reality is a big hallucination, that time doesn't exist, that the universe gives you signs, and synchronicities brought you there. That you believe in miracles, and that consciousness creates reality as in a solipsistic dream universe.

"Oh but the materialist psychiatrist doesn't understand reality" - you're going to say.

Just as predisposed people are not going to think that there is something slightly off, they are going to think that it's a spiritual transformation, or spiritual wisdom/intuition.


 

 

24 minutes ago, Tim R said:

And I guess we'll just ignore that you approach completely lacks any nuance. "Don't take psychedelics, bad idea".

Really? 

I'm just making the case for why it's a bad idea, you already heard the good things.

 

27 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

Psychedelics can make you unstable. People who say it has nothing to do with the substance are in denial IMO. Any strong experience has the potential to traumatize you, so it's always a good idea to tread carefully and try to get to a grounded state in your life so you feel at peace and stable before taking psychedelics. 

@Farnaby at least denial is better than a full blown psychotic delusion like connor murphy.

[Endangered-EGO]

@OBEler I'm not sure it's always going to stay that good.

@Nahm In psychedelics? I would take them after a deeper state of liberation.

@Inliytened1 Good point, of course, but I'm not going to risk more suffering. I know how to meditate, as long as there is progress I won't take psychedelics. maybe micro doses, who knows.

[Tim R]

15 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

DP/DR is Nothingness. Go ask a psychiatrist.

No it's not. 

I've experienced both and I can tell you that they are very tricky delusions. They are not the recognition of emptiness/nothingness.

In DP you still identify with many things and ideas, which is why DP makes you suffer. You still think that you are "inside your head". That you are the witness, separate from that which is witnessed. In fact, this separation is extremely strong in DP.

In DR you still cling (not consciously of course) to the duality of real-unreal.

15 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

When I say "spiritual enlightenment is a predisposition" I mean: "If you go to a psychiatrist and tell him about your awakenings, your no-self etc. He's gonna write down 'predisposition for schizophrenia'". The problem is: How do you differentiate spiritual beliefs and magical beliefs? magical beliefs are a symptom on the schizophrenia spectrum.

That really depends on the psychiatrist. The problem with modern day clinical psychology and psychiatry is that they don't know very much (or anything) about these things, which is why they treat them as "anomalies" (which they are of course!). But anomaly =/= pathology, and even the psychiatrist knows that. 

No-self can't make you suffer. Only self can suffer. 

 

The problem with "categories" like schizophrenia is that they are used (nowadays fortunately less often than in the past) for psychological phenomena which are not accounted for in Western psychology. So it really doesn't matter if I experience some spiritual awakening and a psychiatrist would label me as "potentially psychotic" or whatever. 

15 minutes ago, Endangered-EGO said:

"Oh but the materialist psychiatrist doesn't understand reality" - you're going to say.

Isn't that so?

What does he know about no-self? What does he know about consciousness? What does he understand about thoughts? About Love? 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Tim R

[Endangered-EGO]

13 minutes ago, Tim R said:

No it's not. 

I've experienced both and I can tell you that they are very tricky delusions. They are not the recognition of emptiness/nothingness.

In DP you still identify with many things and ideas, which is why DP makes you suffer. You still think that you are "inside your head". That you are the witness, separate from that which is witnessed. In fact, this separation is extremely strong in DP.

In DR you still cling (not consciously of course) to the duality of real-unreal.

And psychedelics put you in DP/DR or right away into the nothingness without residual separation? Isn't there spiritual practice needed to realise nonduality before going into dissociative states?

I'm not sure about you, but when I had DP/DR, I didn't have separation, because thoughts were as empty as the rest of reality. The suffering was ego death, fighting the change of perception that's occurring.  DP/DR also wasn't that much suffering, the suffering came months/years after not experiencing any dissociations anymore.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9zIKQCwDXsA

[Nahm]

1 hour ago, Endangered-EGO said:

In psychedelics? I would take them after a deeper state of liberation

No, in the more personal & intimate sense if you will. 

[taotemu]

7 hours ago, Tim R said:

That's wrong, period. This is a relic from the 60s, where politicians used to fear-monger with "acid-casualties". 

Psychedelics can't make you schizophrenic or psychotic. They can only trigger already existing predispositions for psychosis (schizophrenia is considered to be a form of psychosis).  Which is why you should better not take psychedelics if you have struggled with mental problems of this kind. But for a healthy individual, your point does absolutely not apply. 

The science on this issue is very clear:

https://www.nature.com/articles/nature.2015.16968

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881114568039

https://journals.sagepub.com/doi/10.1177/0269881114565653

https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC3747247/

This. 

But, clearly psychedelics can be abused.  When I first took 5g of mushrooms I had the most profound spiritual experience of my life.  I fell into a deep sense of oneness and bliss.  It was absolutely amazing and beyond words.  I felt the afterglow for 3 - 4 days after.  I felt "enlightened".  Then it wore off and a week or two later took 7g wanting to get back to that state.  My 7g experience was pure physical pain.  I felt poisoned and was afraid I was going to die.  I felt like I needed to vomit but the cramping was so bad I couldn't.  I did much lower doses months after that and every time got severe nausea and vomiting.  Last time was about a year ago, and on only 2g violently spent the entire trip throwing up.  I apparently developed an allergy to them.

LSD is different for me.  I get profound insights and euphoria most trips with little to no nausea.  But after my mushroom experience, I no longer have a desire to chase that next high.  I do psychedelics 2 - 3 times a year now because I see how possible it would be to abuse them.

My one 5MeO experience wasn't something I would desire to repeat anytime soon.  It was just too much.  I felt like I died and then came back.  It didn't feel spiritual at all.  It was just shit.  I was SO grateful to be back, the only insight I got from the experience was that THIS life is "IT" and WTF was I chasing?  I am now working on integrating that experience into my day to day life.  I have basically lost my desire to do psychedelics again.  I may revisit it again at some point, but from my new outlook on them, they don't have a strong pull anymore.

So I totally get Endangered-EGOs concern about psychedelics.  They are unlikely to cause any serious physical harm, but for some people they can really screw with them psychologically.  If you have any signs of psychosis sober, then stay away from them like the plague.  They are not a magic fix to the problems of humanity.  They are not a cheat to gain enlightenment.  At the very best, they can show you what consciousness is capable of for a few hours.  It can give you a target to shoot for while sober.  That is it.  Taking them more than a few times a year, I would consider abusing them IMO and experience. 

Edited August 11, 2021 by taotemu

[impulse9]

Eh, I don't think you need research for realizing that psychedelics have very real risks. Consider just the possibility of a horrifically bad trip on something really strong. I don't care who or what you are, you're gonna bear that burden for the rest of your life because it will literally be the most horrible thing you ever experienced.

I was just watching this clip yesterday, and I was thinking, fuck if this started happening to me I'd be in some serious trouble

And yes it's a cartoonified version (I mean, literally), but it's surprisingly spot on. If this kind of trip starts happening to you it's gonna be literally the most damaging experience of your life, and that shit will leave psychological scars that nothing will ever heal again.

Not saying that trips have to be this way, if you prepare correctly you minimize a lot of risk (but never all, I'm sorry but there's no such thing as 100% safe psychedelic usage, these are not tomatoes so maybe let's stop treating them as such). The way some of you are promoting psychedelics is bound to lead to misuse somewhere down the road. It's said that psychedelics find you, you don't find them, and probably for a good reason.

[Danioover9000]

@Endangered-EGO

5 hours ago, Endangered-EGO said:

@lmfao Then don't uncover it with force (psychedelics).

 

 

I am aware of that. But you cannot always know that you have already existing predispositions for psychosis. 
If you have a sober awakening, or a "change in perception" or DP/DR, or no sense of self. Guess what: That's a big big predisposition for psychosis.

Spiritual enlightenment is a predisposition for psychosis. Something wrong with your brain is a predisposition.

Being open minded enough to believe in spiritual enlightenment, may count as magical beliefs. You either need to suffer a lot, or be at least a little crazy to get into spiritual enlightenment. I would love to know how many people here are on the schizophrenia spectrum.

The point is: There's no way to know if you have a predisposition, it's most of the time only recognised in retrospect.

   Well, I fit somewhere in that spectrum myself potentially, but it's not as severe as catatonic schizophrenia. However, I did experience a haunting many decades ago, and currently have a paranormal situation in my life where I see a non physical friendly entity that comes and goes with me. The recent one isn't intense that it interferes with daily life, but the haunting in my childhood did, but I'm lucky to be alive.

   I could likely be mild schizophrenia also, as another trait of people with that is they struggle with metaphors but do well with literal meanings. All this considered, if I do psychedelics, I am definitely micro dosing first, integrating that experience for a while, and slowly build up, taking notes about any insights and give myself weeks to months to process the experiences.

   I also get what you mean with de-personalizaton/de-realization disorder. I did self inquiry, the neti neti method many years ago, and while I did get a glimpse of nothingness, it depersonalized me, and I had depression for about a month which I recovered for the most part. It seems to me that there are always risks doing psychedelics rashly, and also spiritual techniques rashly. You could keep going and list risks of different types and degrees in each part of life, but the common denominator of those risks is the ego, other egoes and ignorance, so it's always a good idea to research beforehand.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, taotemu said:

My one 5MeO experience wasn't something I would desire to repeat anytime soon.  It was just too much.  I felt like I died and then came back.  It didn't feel spiritual at all.  It was just shit.  I was SO grateful to be back, the only insight

What do you think about that experience? Imo you've had a shot of dark night of the soul in vein. 5meo has undressed you, taken off your colorful clothes, and what is left? nothing, zero, absolutely nothing. where is infinite love, god realization, etc? none of that, just emptiness. after a while your clothes have returned, and a mark has remained in your subconscious, it says: maya = life, something, i. absolute = nothing, zero, death. after this it becomes difficult to meditate (if I am correct in my interpretation of what you said). you just want to focus on the illusion. but deep down you know it's fake, just colored clothes, without any meaning, no purpose, only illusion, like a trick. we must return to the void. it is extremely challenging, counterintuitive. There's nothing there. but there is a detail: maya. Maya is, so the emptiness has to be something, but it is impossible to grasp it with the mind, it is the non-mind, nothing that can be explained. there is the key, the real. Accept that we are absolutely nothing is the first step , this is liberation, but it's impossible for the mind even to think in that. The other options is to stay to be hung as much as possible from an appearance that we know is empty. no way. there is no mother, no father, no meaning, no goal, no purpose. all that is only illusion, it does not exist. just clothes dressing nobody

Edited August 11, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[taotemu]

1 hour ago, impulse9 said:

Eh, I don't think you need research for realizing that psychedelics have very real risks. Consider just the possibility of a horrifically bad trip on something really strong. I don't care who or what you are, you're gonna bear that burden for the rest of your life because it will literally be the most horrible thing you ever experienced.

I was just watching this clip yesterday, and I was thinking, fuck if this started happening to me I'd be in some serious trouble

And yes it's a cartoonified version (I mean, literally), but it's surprisingly spot on. If this kind of trip starts happening to you it's gonna be literally the most damaging experience of your life, and that shit will leave psychological scars that nothing will ever heal again.

Not saying that trips have to be this way, if you prepare correctly you minimize a lot of risk (but never all, I'm sorry but there's no such thing as 100% safe psychedelic usage, these are not tomatoes so maybe let's stop treating them as such). The way some of you are promoting psychedelics is bound to lead to misuse somewhere down the road. It's said that psychedelics find you, you don't find them, and probably for a good reason.

I loved that episode of Family Guy.  I have had some bad trips, and this cartoon captures the feel of it brilliantly, in my experience at least the visuals were never that bad.  If you are not psychologically prepared for the possibility of such and experience, then psychedelics aren't for you.  Oh, and at least in my experience, blissful beautiful experiences out number bad experiences 10 to 1. 

[Purple Man]

Regardless of the obvious risks associated with psychedelics or hardcore meditative paths in those who are sensible enough to go down the rabbit hole in search for themselves, I have to say that I am certain that the so called "DP/DR disorder" can be a lot of times simply a manifestation of early awakenings in a immature mind that has no spiritual context or references.

If, say, you discover that you are not the body, or realize  the dependence of the world on Consciousness, and you do it before having found a master, the readings, the right people, even before having the terms to describe it all, you might go into panic mode, and end up believing a psychologist who diagnoses "DP/DR", when all you needed was a proper metaphysical frame.

For what I heard (I don´t know if it´s true), there is a tradition of saddhus in India who take "patients" out of mental facilities when they recognize enlightenment in those people, not a disease. As saddhus are revered, they were allowed to take responsability.
 

[Purple Man]

6 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What do you think about that experience? Imo you've had a shot of dark night of the soul in vein. 5meo has undressed you, taken off your colorful clothes, and what is left? nothing, zero, absolutely nothing. where is infinite love, god realization, etc? none of that, just emptiness. after a while your clothes have returned, and a mark has remained in your subconscious, it says: maya = life, something, i. absolute = nothing, zero, death. after this it becomes difficult to meditate (if I am correct in my interpretation of what you said). you just want to focus on the illusion. but deep down you know it's fake, just colored clothes, without any meaning, no purpose, only illusion, like a trick. we must return to the void. it is extremely challenging, counterintuitive. There's nothing there. but there is a detail: maya. Maya is, so the emptiness has to be something, but it is impossible to grasp it with the mind, it is the non-mind, nothing that can be explained. there is the key, the real. Accept that we are absolutely nothing is the first step , this is liberation, but it's impossible for the mind even to think in that. The other options is to stay to be hung as much as possible from an appearance that we know is empty. no way. there is no mother, no father, no meaning, no goal, no purpose. all that is only illusion, it does not exist. just clothes dressing nobody

That´s why the proper frame is so important. The same experience can leave you perplexed and traumatized or be the most exquisite realization. This video shows a way to understand what you have just said, that is, the relationship between the void and emtpy Godhead (Shiva), and Shakti (the manifest). With a context like this, you can undergo a powerful spiritual experience that shows you that you are "No Thing", not "Nothing", and do it in a magical, positive way: 

 

[taotemu]

23 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

What do you think about that experience? Imo you've had a shot of dark night of the soul in vein. 5meo has undressed you, taken off your colorful clothes, and what is left? nothing, zero, absolutely nothing. where is infinite love, god realization, etc? none of that, just emptiness. after a while your clothes have returned, and a mark has remained in your subconscious, it says: maya = life, something, i. absolute = nothing, zero, death. after this it becomes difficult to meditate (if I am correct in my interpretation of what you said). you just want to focus on the illusion. but deep down you know it's fake, just colored clothes, without any meaning, no purpose, only illusion, like a trick. we must return to the void. it is extremely challenging, counterintuitive. There's nothing there. but there is a detail: maya. Maya is, so the emptiness has to be something, but it is impossible to grasp it with the mind, it is the non-mind, nothing that can be explained. there is the key, the real. Accept that we are absolutely nothing is the first step ... I think. The other options is to stay to be hung as much as possible from an appearance that we know is empty. no way. there is no mother, no father, no meaning, no goal, no purpose. all that is only illusion, it does not exist. just clothes dressing nobody

Perhaps.  The realization for me however was that this experience of being a human being, bound in time and space and illusion IS the reason we are having this experience of being human.  This consensus realty we all experience may be the true hallucination, we are still having it.  While it can have some value to peer beyond the veil to see maya for what it is, the purpose of being alive as a human is to experience being human, not flirt with nothingness.  If you really think that a perpetual experience of Nothingness / God / Absolute truth is the goal, then suicide is likely the best option.  But that is not why we are having a human experience.  It is to live our lives, have experiences (both good and bad) within the relative matrix, share love and human connection and to value the beauty of this experience of being alive.  There will be plenty of time for Eternity when we surrender back into the Void.  But can you cook your dinner?  Can you protect a hurt child?  Can you make this worldly experience better for those around you?  If not, then spirituality is really just narcissistic escapism.  

Being fully present and conscious in the ordinary is the goal of a spiritual practice IMO.  Holding the hand of a dying loved one and letting the experience totally in, working on helping society and the Earth be better for everyone is the goal.  Not experience transcendent states, live in bliss all the time or preach about solipsism, nihilism and spiritual narcissism.  

Edited August 11, 2021 by taotemu

[Farnaby]

@Purple Man you may be right, but IME dp/dr is always coupled with anxiety, confusion, feeling disoriented, unlike the blissful and peaceful nature of glimpses of "enlightenment". 

Maybe they are the same and the difference is that during dp/dr the ego is fighting to stay in control and not accepting the shift in perception. 

The problem is these experience tend to leave you feeling ungrounded and that's not a good thing for psychologically healthy functioning.

[Purple Man]

@Farnaby

28 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

@Purple Man you may be right, but IME dp/dr is always coupled with anxiety, confusion, feeling disoriented, unlike the blissful and peaceful nature of glimpses of "enlightenment". 

Maybe they are the same and the difference is that during dp/dr the ego is fighting to stay in control and not accepting the shift in perception. 

The problem is these experience tend to leave you feeling ungrounded and that's not a good thing for psychologically healthy functioning.

@Farnaby 

28 minutes ago, Farnaby said:

 

Yes, I understand very well what you mean, and I am not underestimating the chance of a legit DP syndrome or the severity of the symptoms. But actually my case is an example of that context I spoke about. The early experiences and insights of not being a brain or an object within consciousness  which brought me to a psychologist at age 18, were the same ones that, when understood in the light of, for example, Nisargadatta Maharaj, lead me to understand that nothing was wrong with me, and propelled me into a deep spiritual path. Had I not found that context, I might have been considered a "patient". 

Edited August 11, 2021 by Purple Man

[wildflower]

59 minutes ago, taotemu said:

Perhaps.  The realization for me however was that this experience of being a human being, bound in time and space and illusion IS the reason we are having this experience of being human.  This consensus realty we all experience may be the true hallucination, we are still having it.  While it can have some value to peer beyond the veil to see maya for what it is, the purpose of being alive as a human is to experience being human, not flirt with nothingness.  If you really think that a perpetual experience of Nothingness / God / Absolute truth is the goal, then suicide is likely the best option.  But that is not why we are having a human experience.  It is to live our lives, have experiences (both good and bad) within the relative matrix, share love and human connection and to value the beauty of this experience of being alive.  There will be plenty of time for Eternity when we surrender back into the Void.  But can you cook your dinner?  Can you protect a hurt child?  Can you make this worldly experience better for those around you?  If not, then spirituality is really just narcissistic escapism.  

Being fully present and conscious in the ordinary is the goal of a spiritual practice IMO.  Holding the hand of a dying loved one and letting the experience totally in, working on helping society and the Earth be better for everyone is the goal.  Not experience transcendent states, live in bliss all the time or preach about solipsism, nihilism and spiritual narcissism.  

After a lot of psychedelic use I also arrive at the same position as you. I have abused psychedelics mainly Ketamine, and it just becomes escapism, or chasing detachment/dissociation. Every major single insight I have had on psychedelics wears off after a year or so , becomes a memory. I've also taken psychedelics everyday for long periods and always end up borderline with psychosis and weird thoughts and feelings.

 

Sober is definitely where it is at for me. Skillfully living and organizing my internal world, intentions and behaviors, and lots of meditation. We have to learn to embrace and integrate the depth of our humanity while we are here. Everything for me just becomes various ways of perceiving, viewing and relating to the universe, and each has their time place and utility. Integration is key

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, taotemu said:

 

 

1 hour ago, taotemu said:

  If you really think that a perpetual experience of Nothingness / God / Absolute truth is the goal, then suicide is likely the best option.

there is no rush for that! But when the body fails, it seems like an excellent way to get out of here. For me, the goal of undoing the illusion is to break free, hack the game, stop being a deluded puppet, and thereby enjoy the illusion-reality as much as possible. spending time thinking nonsensical things, since nothing makes sense, it's stupid, but the software we have makes it very difficult not to. the only way is to fall in love with the nothing, anything else leads to the same thing: ego, projection, fear, non-direct experience, thought. It doesn't means to became inhumane, cold, distantly, i think it makes the opposite . And 5meo is a good tool imo, always you use like a tool, not an objective itself. 

but I understand what you mean. that many people use spirituality as escapism. out of fear of life really, they deny life and get hooked on nothing. Could be in many cases but others... maybe the solitude, the void, is a really rich life. I'm open to that

Edited August 11, 2021 by Breakingthewall