I'm thinking about conspiracy mindset.

[roopepa]

Let's take some Qanon covid/climate change denier for an example.

He thinks that there is a global elite trying to steal his individual rights by media, socialism and covid/climate conspiracy, and form some global communist 1984 dystopia.

I'm thinking... Maybe this whole shebang is simply just fear of losing personal identity? Stage green & above, and covid/climate is pushing for union, seeing the finger as a part of the hand. The Qanoner is terrified of this. He has been taught for his entire life from school to media to his family that he is the finger, an individual, he has natural personal rights and property, that he is a proud american. And now the whole world seems to be saying that he is in fact not only the finger, but also the hand. And he must start acting with the other fingers to form a healthy hand that can do stuff.

He mistakes this healthy hand as some satanist 1984 dystopian. Every article or politician who pushes him to recognize the hand, to start acting according it's needs, he sees as evil propaganda. "It can't be true. This is all lies. 'They' are trying to control/own me." Perhaps he even projects his own selfishness and fear of losing personal identity on the elites.

What do you guys think? Am I onto something?

[Gesundheit2]

I converse daily with a conspiracy theorist. I don't think that's quite it in the case I'm dealing with. The case I'm dealing with seems like a combination of deep insecurities, confusion, weak epistemology, victim's mindset, and other stuff. He basically has zero understanding of the human psyche, politics, economics, etc. He didn't contemplate them on his own. Instead, he watches YouTube conspiracy theory videos all the time and believes in all sorts of crazy shit. He believes that the elites are not normal human beings. He believes that at some point, they figured out the elixir of eternal life. I don't know where he learned that idea from. And so, since they have been living for so long (probably hundreds of years), they must be very smart and above the rest of humanity. He also believes in magic and secret powerful technologies that only the elites know of and have access to. When I converse with him and paint him into a corner, he says that it doesn't matter because his life is shitty and he wants it to change, that's all. I tell him he won't change it with those silly beliefs. Then the mask drops off and the insecurities become crystal clear.

[Parththakkar12]

@roopepa You're trying to understand it from within the materialist paradigm. You can't! It'll seem like total bullshit nonsense from the 3D materialist paradigm. 

If you really want to understand it, do it from outside the materialist paradigm. Do some psychedelic trips (if you must) and contemplate what they're saying. Then it'll start to make a lot more sense!

[roopepa]

5 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@roopepa You're trying to understand it from within the materialist paradigm.

Wat

Where do you see materialist paradigm present in my post?

[Roy]

8 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

are not normal human beings

What even is a "normal" human being at this point ? It seems the more you find out about the world, things and people just get weirder and weirder.

[AtheisticNonduality]

Can someone just ban @Parththakkar12 already?

[Danioover9000]

@Parththakkar12

8 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@roopepa You're trying to understand it from within the materialist paradigm. You can't! It'll seem like total bullshit nonsense from the 3D materialist paradigm. 

If you really want to understand it, do it from outside the materialist paradigm. Do some psychedelic trips (if you must) and contemplate what they're saying. Then it'll start to make a lot more sense!

3D material paradigm. Now we're talking.

[Parththakkar12]

3 hours ago, roopepa said:

Wat

Where do you see materialist paradigm present in my post?

It's like pointing water to a fish. Everything you're saying is within that context!

Your ideas of 'covid and climate-change' are within that paradigm, 'the healthy hand' vs the finger (the two aren't separate outside of the material world), your idea of '1984 dystopian world' doesn't look so bad from the 3D materialist paradigm. In fact, it looks awesome, right?!

Your idea of 'lies' vs 'truth' are within the materialist paradigm, where you're trying to show 'proof' to 'prove the truth' and you think that they're denying 'facts'. It'll seem like they're 'ignorant of the facts', where the idea of 'fact' is a materialistic thing.

If you really want to see what's going on, look at the flow of information. As Leo talks about in his 'Social Matrix' video, look at where all your information comes from! Study the sources of your information, source everything you believe. See what you come up with! Prepare for the answers to shock you.

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Can someone just ban @Parththakkar12 already?

Sorry to disappoint.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[roopepa]

@Parththakkar12 You are making a ton of assumptions that are not apparent in my post. You misunderstood what I was trying to say.

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

@roopepa What do you think I'm missing?

[roopepa]

6 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@roopepa What do you think I'm missing?

Recognizing the possibility of the finger being unified with the hand, that there is no separation, is the dismantling of materialist paradigm. I would not have mentioned anything like that if I was talking from the perspective of a "3D material world".

[Parththakkar12]

1 minute ago, roopepa said:

Recognizing the possibility of the finger being unified with the hand, that there is no separation, is the dismantling of materialist paradigm. I would not have mentioned anything like that if I was talking from the perspective of a "3D material world".

Actually, it is based on separation. By your way of looking at things, the 'finger' and 'hand' are separate! If the finger dies, the hand doesn't really care. It doesn't really matter to the hand if the finger dies! The hand can still function.

You're saying that the finger should care about the fact that it is a part of the hand and that it should care about the hand. That is correct. But, you're letting the hand get away with not caring about the finger! This is why this analogy is based on the materialist paradigm. You're treating the two as separate!

[roopepa]

12 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

But, you're letting the hand get away with not caring about the finger!

Where in my words is this apparent?

[Parththakkar12]

@roopepa You're only talking about what the finger should do. Not what the hand should do! You're assuming that what the hand is doing is good for the finger. What if it isn't?

One of the big reasons your analogy is totally inaccurate is that in a hand, the 'hand' and 'finger' don't have separate brains, don't have separate senses of self. But with humans, we do! Also, you're assuming that the structure that we currently have is as natural as hands and fingers. I'll give you a difference - the hands and fingers structure really is holarchical. But, the system that humans have created is hierarchical! Not holarchical.

We live in a majority-wins system. So, while in a hands-and-fingers system the hand does not see the finger as separate, humans do. The minority is always separate from the majority in humans!

Edited August 11, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Parththakkar12]

This is the problem with reductionism. You see the whole as the sum of its parts, and if all the parts 'do the right thing', the whole will be good. Not true at all! You need to be more big-picture to really see that the whole is more than the sum of its parts.

[Hulia]

@roopepa No, it´s not that. I know 2 left-wing guys, who don´t know each other, and they both deny covid and climate change. They also are convinced that there no democracy any more in Germany, elite has stolen it from them. But! At the same time they deeply sympathize with Putin and even a little with China and hate German government that thramples their rights under foot.. Oh, these noble democracy fighters ?

I completely agree with @Gesundheit2 The both of them have something in common:

14 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

The case I'm dealing with seems like a combination of deep insecurities, confusion, weak epistemology, victim's mindset

In fact, when I am thinking about it, they probably  would agree with their rights stolen from them, but not by those like Merkel or Bill Gates, rather by a tough guy like Putin. In fact all these guys want is security with rights or without rights. 

But even more than German government they hate America. Not Trump! Trump was ok.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Hulia

[roopepa]

9 hours ago, Hulia said:

But! At the same time they deeply sympathize with Putin and even a little with China and hate German government that thramples their rights under foot.

It is quite likely that they are not Green, at least not in a healthy manner.

Authoritarianism is not what I meant with "the hand".

[roopepa]

9 hours ago, Parththakkar12 said:

@roopepa You're only talking about what the finger should do. Not what the hand should do! You're assuming that what the hand is doing is good for the finger. What if it isn't?

The hand does good for the finger because it is literally 'made of' the fingers.

You completely misunderstood my point. This is a nonsense conversation.

[Alex M]

These type of posts generally turn into chimps flinging shit at each other. Including this one.

[Parththakkar12]

58 minutes ago, roopepa said:

The hand does good for the finger because it is literally 'made of' the fingers.

You completely misunderstood my point. This is a nonsense conversation.

The whole is more than the sum of its parts. It's not just the sum of its parts!

Systems work in counter-intuitive ways.

Edited August 11, 2021 by Parththakkar12