Alan Watts on Understanding Absolute Love

[impulse9]

Uhm. Actually once you get your data from your microscope, there's very little reason to keep using that microscope, unless your data is corrupted.

[taotemu]

2 hours ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Someone cannot be addicted to alcohol and the greatest spiritual teacher of our time. 

The path is about happiness and ending suffering.

This has nothing to do with cancel culture, this has to do with discernment. 

Go find a teacher who managed to transcend addiction. There are plenty

For me discernment includes separating the message from the messenger.   Carl Jung had insight into the human psyche like few other Europeans before him.  Yet he was prone to bursts of anger that made him difficult to be around.  I can separate his flaws from his genius.  Watts opened the minds of millions of people in the West to another perspective on spirituality.  I count him as one of my greatest teachers even though I never met him or saw him live.  I simply don't care about his alcoholism because his message was so well articulated and clear.  I'm open to learn from anyone who has wisdom to share.  I'm not going to be dissecting their lives to make sure they are perfect in every way before I listen and learn from them.

Anyone who claims to have transcended all human faults is lying.  Sometimes the most profound wisdom comes from those who are most broken and those who struggle the most with their demons.  The Shadow has much to teach us.  Our faults and where we are broken is often where the light shines through. 
 

[Raptorsin7]

@taotemu When it comes to this specific quote I think his history is relevant.

I don't know what he meant specifically, but if you are interpreting the quote to mean once you get a glimpse then stop taking them then I think the fact that he was an alcoholic who never cured his disease despite his "awakenings" is very relevant. 

I want to learn from the best of the best. If you can't beat alcoholism then you aren't very good imo

[taotemu]

Just now, Raptorsin7 said:

@taotemu When it comes to this specific quote I think his history is relevant.

I don't know what he meant specifically, but if you are interpreting the quote to mean once you get a glimpse then stop taking them then I think the fact that he was an alcoholic who never cured his disease despite his "awakenings" is very relevant. 

I want to learn from the best of the best. If you can't beat alcoholism then you aren't very good imo

I actually agree with you on that point.  From my understanding he only took LSD twice.  The first time wasn't enough to break through but the second time was.  He described it as profound and worthy to trying but it was not a means to enlightenment in itself (which I agree with).  While I think revisiting the psychedelic state is worth while when done right, I do think it is possible to abuse the drugs in ever increasing attempts to get back into that state.  Basically chasing enlightenment with a drug.  It won't work. 

[Raptorsin7]

@taotemu That's interesting i didn't know that. 

But whatever he did, also didn't work. Alan watts always seemed like a guy who had some insight, but just parroted Buddhist philosophy that resonated with people who had no understanding of spirituality.

I don't think he's a credible spiritual teacher, but this is beyond the scope of what we're saying.

[Moksha]

At least Alan Watts realized the value of stepping away from the spiritual microscope, and working on what you have seen. Who am I to judge what attachments he was able to dissolve, in doing this work? Maybe he didn't overcome alcoholism, but there are other deep attachments that he was able to release. I'm hard-pressed to think of any human that overcame all of their aversions and desires. Maybe superheroes like Jesus and the Buddha mostly did, but even here, I am confident they were not entirely perfect. Humanity itself is an attachment.

Enlightenment is a process, not a destination. Don't discredit people who aren't perfect, because in doing so you will nullify the collective wisdom of the ages. None of the sages was perfect either, and yet they realized their ultimate nature, and worked toward Self-integration.

[Raptorsin7]

24 minutes ago, Moksha said:

At least Alan Watts realized the value of stepping away from the spiritual microscope, and working on what you have seen. Who am I to judge what attachments he was able to dissolve, in doing this work? Maybe he didn't overcome alcoholism, but there are other deep attachments that he was able to release. I'm hard-pressed to think of any human that overcame all of their aversions and desires. Maybe superheroes like Jesus and the Buddha mostly did, but even here, I am confident they were not entirely perfect. Humanity itself is an attachment.

Enlightenment is a process, not a destination. Don't discredit people who aren't perfect, because in doing so you will nullify the collective wisdom of the ages. None of the sages was perfect either, and yet they realized their ultimate nature, and worked toward Self-integration.

Telling people to set aside psychs after two uses when you are still an alcoholic is worth judging.

[taotemu]

From the horses mouth. 

[Moksha]

34 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

Telling people to set aside psychs after two uses when you are still an alcoholic is worth judging.

Alan Watts saw clearly. His ability to integrate his realizations is another question, but does it invalidate the wisdom of his teachings? I don't care how successful someone is in their integration. I care more about the resonance of the message itself. If the teachings are true, they have intrinsic value, regardless of how successfully they are modeled. How many prophets do you know that have been perfect?

[Raptorsin7]

@Moksha I highly value integration, not glimpses and intellectualization.

I am questioning Alan watts because his quote gives the impression to some that once you have a glimpse of higher consciousness on psychs then you put them away. For many people glimpses will not be enough to transform your life, and prolonged psych use can be really useful. 

So if someone were to say to me, or to themselves, well Alan watts said I should put down the phone so I'm gong to stop psych use, I would say well I don't think Alan Watts is a very credible source because whatever his philosophy was, it didn't give him the ability to transcend his addiction and so I don't think we should take this guy as any sort of spiritual authority.

I'm not saying anyone has to be perfect. But there should be high standards for people giving out advice about the path and psycjs

[impulse9]

10 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

prolonged psych use can be really useful. 

No, it cannot be. There's 0% chance that prolonged psychedelics use will lead you anywhere, I'm sorry. You're either going to go irreparably mad, or you're gonna get a case of severe ego inflation, or worse. I don't think you fully appreciate the scope of what you're claiming here at all. You're claiming that a substance that completely eradicates your ego and transports you to another world can be used willy-nilly without any consequences. Nothing in this world is free, my friend, and psychedelics may not be as bad as other hard drugs but the fact remains that they are still a hard drug at the end of the day. If you think they lead anywhere, you're deluding yourself and I can't blame you since Leo himself claims this. But he's wrong.
 

Also, you can question Watts all you want, the bottom line is that he spoke from the heart and that's all that matters in the end.

Edited August 3, 2021 by impulse9

[Raptorsin7]

@impulse9 By prolonged psych use I don't mean using it indefinitely. 

Prolonged can be once every 2 weeks for a 3 month stretch. 

I don't think you understand the scope of what you're saying. You realize you could take a micro dose over a 6 month period, and that would also fall under prolonged psych use.

Honestly the language you are using around being transported, ego eradication etc makes me think you're projecting a lack of understanding of what psychs do

@Consilience is a good example of a poster who has used psychs more than a few times, and has managed to integrate them into sober understanding

Edited August 3, 2021 by Raptorsin7

[Moksha]

18 minutes ago, Raptorsin7 said:

@Moksha I highly value integration, not glimpses and intellectualization.

I hear you. Intellectualization will get you nowhere. The question is whether the message deeply resonates, regardless of the messenger.

I have read one of his books, and have seen a few of his videos. I'm not a cult follower of Alan Watts. What I have heard resonates with what I have realized. Given that, I don't care how integrated he was as a human. It is all about the integrity of the message itself.

Alan Watts is not a lone voice in the wilderness. I recently read Being Ram Dass, and see a lot of parallels in his experience. He experimented extensively with psychedelics, but ultimately moved beyond them. They were only a temporary medicine.

I had thought of psychedelics as a spiritual path, and now he was pulling that conceptual rug out from under me. From the place of oneness where Maharaj-ji sits, psychedelics are just a fragmentary shard of a vastly deeper reality. He showed me they are a limited window, all the while reflecting back to me the deeper place of love within myself…

These medicines were known in the Kulu Valley long ago," he said, "but yogis have forgotten about them." He said psychedelics could be useful if you took them in a quiet, cold place and your soul was turned toward God. "They allow you to come into the presence of Christ, to have darshan, but you can only stay for two hours."

It was good to visit Christ, Maraj-ji said, but it was better to be Christ. "This medicine won't do that," he continued. "It's not the true samadhi, absorption in God. Love is a much stronger medicine."

 

[impulse9]

I've done more than enough psychedelics to know exactly what I'm talking about. I'm fairly sure I've done more than you, and I've definitely done more than Leo. These substances will give you noting but a false sense of enlightenment. Half of you here don't realize what kind of powers you're invoking with these. They lead nowhere and they aren't free either.

[Raptorsin7]

@impulse9 Lol you made a post in June saying you just had your first LSD trip. I don't think you have any idea what you're talking about

[impulse9]

@Raptorsin7 That is true, I've recently had my first LSD trip, and it refreshed my memory since I haven't done psychedelics in years. However, about a decade ago I went on a true psychonaut spree lasting for at least 5 years or so. I've done plenty of psychedelics, the vast majority of which were mushrooms - and in large doses, mushrooms are equally potent to anything you can find out there, I guaran-fucking-tee it. I also haven't done DMT, but I have done Salvia extract maybe 20 or so times, and I dare to say there isn't a psychedelic on Earth more powerful than it. I've done a bunch of others too but I don't want to turn this into a dick measuring contest. I believe I know the psychedelic playing field much better than you do, at least according to the nonsense you wrote in this thread. And I also believe Leo hasn't really figured it out either. The only reason for why I'm saying what I'm saying is to warn you, but I'm sure you won't listen to me anyway. In the end you'll reach the same conclusion that I did, and so will Leo. That psychedelics lead nowhere at all. You were always here, you just forgot about it.

Feel free to respond with another borderline derogatory projection, I'm done here.  

[taotemu]

@impulse9 I’ve done LSD about 30 times and mushrooms about a dozen times and just recently 5MeO DMT for my first time.  I totally agree with your assessment that using psychedelics won’t get you enlightened.  They are tools that can crack the ego temporarily to give insight into higher consciousness.  But they will not get you there, only point the way.  

[Raptorsin7]

@impulse9 @taotemu I'm not saying psychidelics are the only thing that a person should use on the path.

 

[impulse9]

You shouldn't even use them honestly. I know, this sounds hypocritical but if I could go back in time and tell my young self not to use them as much, I would. Use them to get over the initial bump in spirituality, when the ego clings to material existence with such vigor that nothing else can really move it. That's when psychedelics shine, they can show you magic first hand, and that's extremely important, especially if you're not naturally spiritually gifted. But past that I don't believe they are useful at all, if anything they are a distraction from the true work. Meditation is far more magical than psychedelics to the point where it's not even in the same universe. That's why I said earlier that psychedelics look like childrens toys compared to actual enlightenment.

But I also realize we're all on our own path, and I was stupid with psychedelics too, so I can't blame anyone for trying.

Edited August 4, 2021 by impulse9

[taotemu]

@impulse9 I will say that NOTHING compares to 5MeO DMT.  I’ve done 340ug of high quality LSD and it was 10% of what 20mg of 5MeO does. 
 

LSD opens the doors of perception.  5MeO DMT blows the house down. 

Edited August 4, 2021 by taotemu