Alan Watts on Understanding Absolute Love

[BipolarGrowth]

“Absolute Love is great, but once you get the message, hang up the phone.” Okay… he didn’t really say that, but he did say this about psychedelics:

“If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen.”

 

I suggest what your soul really wants to know is how to love the experience of Absolute Dukkha. What could destabilize you after that? 

[impulse9]

Yes, he's right and Leo's wrong. Psychedelics are a dead end, they lead nowhere. Their only use is to soften individuals and allow them to experience magic first hand, past that they are absolutely useless and you won't get any wisdom from them, ever, you'll just get a case of inflation (which Alan Watts also pointed out).

Not that I think Leo isn't wise in many other areas and spreads the right message. But I disagree with him that psychedelics are the ultimate tool, I've tried extremely potent psychedelics and went through it all, and I can easily claim I've had far more profound experiences in deep meditation. With meditation you're using your own power, with psychedelics it's borrowed power. And that which is borrowed has to be returned. You'll never get it through psychedelics, you'll just get more and more confused until you go mad altogether. Once you get the message, the proper thing is indeed, to hang up the phone.

Edited August 2, 2021 by impulse9

[BipolarGrowth]

10 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

Yes, he's right and Leo's wrong. Psychedelics are a dead end, they lead nowhere. Their only use is to soften individuals and allow them to experience magic first hand, past that they are absolutely useless and you won't get any wisdom from them, ever, you'll just get a case of inflation (which Alan Watts also pointed out).

Not that I think Leo isn't wise in many other areas and spreads the right message. But I disagree with him that psychedelics are the ultimate tool, I've tried extremely potent psychedelics and went through it all, and I can easily claim I've had far more profound experiences in deep meditation. With meditation you're using your own power, with psychedelics it's borrowed power. And that which is borrowed has to be returned. You'll never get it through psychedelics, you'll just get more and more confused until you go mad altogether. Once you get the message, the proper thing is indeed, to hang up the phone.

Psychedelics are very integral for serious spiritual work for many people. You’re speaking from a biased perspective. Meditation and mastering the jhanas and vipassana based on the jhanas is better than psychedelics for permanent baseline growth though. 

[impulse9]

There's nothing serious about life. If you think spirituality is supposed to be serious, then you've started off on the wrong foot to begin with, and have more to learn. Think of it like this, psychedelics are simply a way of amplifying your consciousness. If that consciousness is deluded, incoherent and unharmonious to begin with, then your trip will reflect that exact state, you won't get anything from it. And if your consciousness is already harmonious and filled with universal love, then why do you need psychedelics? To feel even more love? How much love are you capable of feeling before it tears you apart? You really think psychedelics are going to help you there?

And look - I'm not making any claims, you do you. I'm simply stating that according to my own understanding and my own direct experience, psychedelics are simply a magical light show that you can partake in, they are powerful tools indeed but they will not give you access to spiritual power and they will not unlock any spiritual goodies, that's all ego stuff. If you want truth, drop desire.

Edited August 2, 2021 by impulse9

[gettoefl]

17 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

There's nothing serious about life. If you think spirituality is supposed to be serious, then you've started off on the wrong foot to begin with, and have more to learn. Think of it like this, psychedelics are simply a way of amplifying your consciousness. If that consciousness is deluded, incoherent and unharmonious to begin with, then your trip will reflect that exact state, you won't get anything from it. And if your consciousness is already harmonious and filled with universal love, then why do you need psychedelics? To feel even more love? How much love are you capable of feeling before it tears you apart? You really think psychedelics are going to help you there?

And look - I'm not making any claims, you do you. I'm simply stating that according to my own understanding and my own direct experience, psychedelics are simply a magical light show that you can partake in, they are powerful tools indeed but they will not give you access to spiritual power and they will not unlock any spiritual goodies, that's all ego stuff. If you want truth, drop desire.

so would leo have the profound insights he presents were it not for psychedelics?

[BipolarGrowth]

20 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

There's nothing serious about life. If you think spirituality is supposed to be serious, then you've started off on the wrong foot to begin with, and have more to learn. Think of it like this, psychedelics are simply a way of amplifying your consciousness. If that consciousness is deluded, incoherent and unharmonious to begin with, then your trip will reflect that exact state, you won't get anything from it. And if your consciousness is already harmonious and filled with universal love, then why do you need psychedelics? To feel even more love? How much love are you capable of feeling before it tears you apart? You really think psychedelics are going to help you there?

And look - I'm not making any claims, you do you. I'm simply stating that according to my own understanding and my own direct experience, psychedelics are simply a magical light show that you can partake in, they are powerful tools indeed but they will not give you access to spiritual power and they will not unlock any spiritual goodies, that's all ego stuff. If you want truth, drop desire.

Taking ayahuasca is literally what allowed me to access my clairsentience permanently… you’re deluded and warning people who know something about being deluded

[taotemu]

Psychedelics are tools.  They are not an end in themselves.  I've had profoundly spiritual and enlightened experiences on LSD, but I always come back to my ego.  In fact, in my experience the ego often re-asserts itself even more strongly in a kind of rebound effect for a few days. 

The real work takes place AFTER the psychedelic experience.  Without that work you may as well of not looked behind the veil and just continued to live your life. 

The insight I got from my 5MeO experience is that I keep chasing the state of consciousness I have access to on psychedelics, but it is a fools errand just as Allen Watts suggests.  There will be plenty of "time" to experience oneness with source / God once we are no longer bound to these bodies.  The point of living a human life is to experience being human.  Being enlightened is simply being fully present with this life.  I think so many people are looking for an escape of the monotony, pain and conflict inherent in being human.  At least that has been true for me.  But this moment, right here and right now is it.  There is nothing to do, no technique to follow, no drug to take.  Just awareness, just being still with the silent witness, just not identifying with the monkey mind of the ego.

Many people live their lives using religion as a guide. The one thing first hand, direct experiences of God can do is to bypass the trappings of religion and permit a direct access to the divine.  Once we are living in accord to that perspective, our lives work.

[impulse9]

2 minutes ago, gettoefl said:

so would leo have the profound insights he presents were it not for psychedelics?

I can't speak for him.

 

Just now, BipolarGrowth said:

Taking ayahuasca is literally what allowed me to access my clairsentience permanently… you’re deluded and warning people who know something about being deluded

Yeah, or maybe my answer shocked you to your core and now your ego is scrambling to pick up the pieces. If you think you're gonna get something from psychedelics because Leo says so, be my guest. Just don't be too surprised when you end up just as neurotic as you are right now. I already said that psychedelics are extremely useful for people who are too stuck in the material, egoic realm. Once you get past that initial bump, I claim they have no use. You are free to disagree, doesn't bother me one bit. We're all on our own paths.

[BipolarGrowth]

1 minute ago, impulse9 said:

I can't speak for him.

 

Yeah, or maybe my answer shocked you to your core and now your ego is scrambling to pick up the pieces. If you think you're gonna get something from psychedelics because Leo says so, be my guest. Just don't be too surprised when you end up just as neurotic as you are right now. I already said that psychedelics are extremely useful for people who are too stuck in the material, egoic realm. Once you get past that initial bump, I claim they have no use. You are free to disagree, doesn't bother me one bit. We're all on our own paths.

Just don’t be too quick to discount how it’s working in other people’s lives. Just because they don’t look that way for you doesn’t mean they aren’t working as opposing ideas describe them 

[impulse9]

Like I said, I've done "hundreds" of trips. I know what I'm talking about, I'm very, very, very well aware of the depths of psyche psychedelics can reveal to you. And I'm not even for one second minimizing the profound and absolutely magical effects they produce. I've experienced all that, it especially helped me early on to basically confirm what I was reading about. It's hard to believe all the higher spiritual truths if you've been indoctrinated into the western civilization and have a materialistic and narrow worldview. It's very hard to accept something like "universal love", or "incomprehensible truth", or even something semi-trivial like telepathy and magical powers. It's hard to accept that through words alone, and in that regard psychedelics are marvelous tools, they will show you first hand exactly what all those mystics are talking about.

What I __am__ claiming, however, is that past that, they become useless. Once you get the message that the world is a magical place, you don't need any more psychedelics any more than you need to watch Bugs Bunny cartoons 20 hours per day. It's a trip, it's a story, it's something to take in and enjoy. It is __not__ a source of spiritual wisdom, it will not grant you any insight that you won't forget immediately upon landing back on Earth, and it will never lead anywhere, which makes it a dead end. In the words of Yoga, it's a Siddhi catalyst, it produces magic, but Yogis will warn you over and over again that "if you get Siddhis, ignore them". And you should do the same with psychedelics. Take them, but don't abuse them. and don't get hooked to them. A medicine, not a diet.

[taotemu]

6 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

Take them, but don't abuse them. and don't get hooked to them. A medicine, not a diet.

Yes.  It is a medicine, not a diet.  I agree completely.  Sometimes I feel like I need a booster and will trip again.  Using these drugs more than once or twice a year is likely more about being hooked on the experience.  Nothing necessarily wrong with that, but it isn't likely for spiritual development and there is a danger in thinking enlightenment is just one hit away. 

[impulse9]

Actual enlightenment makes psychedelics look like childrens toys.

[BipolarGrowth]

32 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

Actual enlightenment makes psychedelics look like childrens toys.

This is totally true. 

[Consilience]

I think out of all the uses of psychedelics, deep healing has probably been the most potent of effects. Yes seeing deeply into the nature of reality is great while tripping, but the views and understanding tend to leave after the trip and get cognized as an intellectual understanding. The energetic and emotional releases, however, actually stay cleared and Im left feeling lighter. So while the insights don‘t necessarily stick around after the trip ends, the healing that took place does. I really do view them more as medicine at this point. 
 

[Tim R]

3 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

I suggest what your soul really wants to know is how to love the experience of Absolute Dukkha.

@BipolarGrowth You can't love Dukkha, or it wouldn't be Dukkha. 

[BipolarGrowth]

8 hours ago, Tim R said:

@BipolarGrowth You can't love Dukkha, or it wouldn't be Dukkha. 

That’s why there can’t be a you there. No-Self 

[BipolarGrowth]

8 hours ago, Tim R said:

@BipolarGrowth You can't love Dukkha, or it wouldn't be Dukkha. 

You love all kinds of dukkha. Your mom is dukkha. You just defined her as good. Now that limits your capabilities to love all of experience. The duality gums up the works. 

[Ry4n]

13 hours ago, taotemu said:

Psychedelics are tools.  They are not an end in themselves.  I've had profoundly spiritual and enlightened experiences on LSD, but I always come back to my ego.  In fact, in my experience the ego often re-asserts itself even more strongly in a kind of rebound effect for a few days. 

The real work takes place AFTER the psychedelic experience.  Without that work you may as well of not looked behind the veil and just continued to live your life. 

The insight I got from my 5MeO experience is that I keep chasing the state of consciousness I have access to on psychedelics, but it is a fools errand just as Allen Watts suggests.  There will be plenty of "time" to experience oneness with source / God once we are no longer bound to these bodies.  The point of living a human life is to experience being human.  Being enlightened is simply being fully present with this life.  I think so many people are looking for an escape of the monotony, pain and conflict inherent in being human.  At least that has been true for me.  But this moment, right here and right now is it.  There is nothing to do, no technique to follow, no drug to take.  Just awareness, just being still with the silent witness, just not identifying with the monkey mind of the ego.

Many people live their lives using religion as a guide. The one thing first hand, direct experiences of God can do is to bypass the trappings of religion and permit a direct access to the divine.  Once we are living in accord to that perspective, our lives work.

Absolutely, LSD was critical in my understanding of source but only up to a certain point; meditation showed me a more grounded oneness perspective that integrates source into even the most seemingly mundane aspects of life. I see no contradiction between the physical and the spiritual now. It all nicely integrates into a singular "wholeness" that accompanies a sense of being absolutely complete. The spiritual highs are nice, lots can be learned, but the constant flow one can have with everyday life makes said insights a lived reality for the individual. 

10 hours ago, Consilience said:

but the views and understanding tend to leave after the trip and get cognized as an intellectual understanding.

Underrated comment here, as profound and true as these experiences can be there is always a subsequent interpretation that is suspect to human bias; there is literally no way around this-to me this is what makes meditation so crucial in the end, for shutting off the mind's BS and instead living and embodying truth combined with these direct experiences is (imo) what true "enlightenment" is all about. Takes a deep connection with one's intuition to fully actualise this however. 

[Leo Gura]

What Watts said has nothing to do with Absolute Love.

And as far as his advice for using psychedelics, it's just terrible advice. People parrot his line far too quickly and keeps them from deeply exploring the psychedelic domain. As if a few trips will get you any serious understanding.

Be ware of advice or wisdom which sounds good as a catchy one-liner, but is actually BS.

[BipolarGrowth]

55 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

What Watts said has nothing to do with Absolute Love.

And as far as his advice for using psychedelics, it's just terrible advice. People parrot his line far too quickly and keeps them from deeply exploring the psychedelic domain. As if a few trips will get you any serious understanding.

Be ware of advice or wisdom which sounds good as a catchy one-liner, but is actually BS.

Does this not apply to all absolutes? A one-liner which could never hold anything worthwhile within itself when viewed with proper multiplicity. “Only a Sith deals in absolutes.”