Increase in vaccine coercion

[lardplanet]

 

[Recursoinominado]

6 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

You call others dumb for being skeptical with regards to what they put into their veins. Yet you probably avoid GMOs like the plague. Hypocrisy?

If GMO corn would solve this mess, i would eat it.

As a vegan, if meat were the solution, I would eat it.

Dumb people are not flexible, they live with simple hard truths and aren't able to consider the complexity of things.

Complexity hurts dumb people's brains.

[impulse9]

GMO saves millions from hunger. It could well be argued that GMOs save many more people from dying than vaccines do, yet there you are, skeptical of them.

Here's my suggestion. You should try to actually understand why some people don't fully trust vaccines, instead of calling them dumb. Calling people names won't ever solve your problems. and I'm not sure what you're trying to achieve here by trying to insult others.

complexity of things.

I design complex systems. I probably programmed some code that you've run on your computer. Stop patronizing. I know a lot of extremely smart people that refuse to take the vaccine. They work in various scientific positions. According to you, they're all dumb. As I've said before, I don't mind if people choose to take the vaccine. For me personally, as a healthy adult, I'll take my chances. I prefer my immune system deal with the virus in the natural way than pump something into my veins that I don't personally trust.

[Carl-Richard]

2 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

GMO saves millions from hunger. It could well be argued that GMOs save many more people from dying than vaccines do, yet there you are, skeptical of them.

You're reaching so hard here. A privileged white kid who reads about the downsides of GMO and decides to not eat them can at the same time do the utility calculation that GMO could save millions of unprivileged lives. No contradiction there.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[impulse9]

GMOs already saves millions of lives, privileged or not. I still avoid it when possible.

[BadHippie]

Quote

Lmao are you serious? This is basic virology.

There is nothing like "basic virology", it´s all subjective...

Quote

So here you have someone who has read up on some basic virology. What books have you read exactly since you mention it? (not you Gesundheit).

https://www.amazon.com/Virus-Mania-COVID-19-Hepatitis-Billion-Dollar/dp/3752629789/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Virus+mania&qid=1628259289&sr=8-1

https://archive.org/details/Principles_of_Virology_4th_Edition_2_Vol_set_by_S._Jane_Flint_Lynn_W._Enquist_Vi/page/n4/mode/2up

https://www.amazon.com/Corona-False-Alarm-Facts-Figures/dp/1645020576/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Corona+false+alarm&qid=1628259368&sr=8-1 (Not focused on viruses, but also some good perspectives)

https://www.ecolibri.de/shop/article/43073343/clemens_g_arvay_wir_koennen_es_besser.html (don´t find it in english)

https://www.amazon.com/Limits-Medicine-Medical-Nemesis-Expropriation/dp/0714529931/ref=sr_1_1?dchild=1&keywords=Limits+to+medicine&qid=1628259446&sr=8-1 (Everyone should read this who works in the medical-industrial complex, well basically everybody if I´m honest, not just about viruses)

the other one I counted towards viruses was more on "pandemics" in general:

https://www.ecolibri.de/shop/article/44598962/wolfgang_wodarg_falsche_pandemien.html (can´t find it in english)

probably looks like I am biased now, but that´s fine ;D

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by BadHippie

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, impulse9 said:

GMOs already saves millions of lives, privileged or not. I still avoid it when possible.

Yet you avoid utility calculations at all costs when it comes to vaccines ?

[Nobody_Here]

@impulse9 , weren't you the one who said earlier you won't take a vaccine to prevent an infectious disease because you were traumatized by psychiatrists who gave you ADHD meds?

Speaking as someone who also just got off ADHD meds, my opinion is that’s pretty dumb, whether you are an IT Professional or not. (I'm a vaccinated IT professional.)

[BadHippie]

Quote

Yet you avoid utility calculations at all costs when it comes to vaccines ?

How do you calculate something with so many factors? It´s impossible... 

Can you show me the study that says we need to vaccinate everyone?

[BadHippie]

Also to the people trying to coerce someone into taking the vaccine. What do you tell them if they have long-term consequences from the vaccine? Or someone who lost someone to the vaccine.

You make it look like the vaccine is safe for everyone - which it isn´t - there is clear evidence that people die after the vaccine. (probably more than officially counted, because the bureaucracy for evaluating if someone died from the vaccine is different then when someone died "from" COVID)

Like why does everyone count towards COVID-Deaths, who has a positive test, when dying? But when someone dies after taking the vaccine, they try everything to not make it count as vaccine dead... We should count both the same way.

We need official numbers of people dying WITH the vaccine, just like we have official numbers for people dying WITH a positive test for COVID.

Edited August 6, 2021 by BadHippie

[impulse9]

@Carl-Richard I didn't even once in this thread post anything against the vaccines, or claim that people shouldn't take them. My one and only point I've been repeating over and over again is to allow each individual to decide for themselves. And sure, some people may be massively uninformed, but from my direct experience those also happen to be the people who take the vaccine without putting much thought into it.

@Nobody_Here No, I offered it as an analogy since I lost a couple dear friends to pharmaceuticals. I would never listen to a psychiatrist's opinion personally.

[DocWatts]

Tricky situation. Short of a vaccine mandate (which is a non-starter here in the States), coercive measures which make proof of vaccination a requirement to travel or participate in civic life will likely be the only way to get though to a significant portion of vaccine hesitant people.

The rub being that such measures are possible only when and where Republicans (who could care less if their constituents are dying) do not hold political power, and that the upcoming 2022 and 2024 elections are looking incredibly tenuous for the slim majorities that Democrats hold in Congress and throughout much of the country.

With the unintended side effect that any sorts of coercive measures to incentive vaccines (or mandate basic safety measures during a pandemic) likely to galvanize more low consciousness Voters to go out to the polls in 2022 and 2024. That's of course in addition to the widespread Voter suppression efforts that have been taking place since the Orange Turd was booted from the White House.

[Danioover9000]

   My family and myself have already taken the vaccine. The only side effect is soreness. Personally, I don't like being an accessory to murder via passing the virus to another person, that's one of my fears. How people are ok with helpng the virus spread will take a while for me to understand. JUST TAKE THE VACCINE (unless you're health conditions match up with the side effects.).

[impulse9]

You can easily kill someone while driving too. Let's all stop driving so this doesn't happen.

[Carl-Richard]

29 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

 

https://archive.org/details/Principles_of_Virology_4th_Edition_2_Vol_set_by_S._Jane_Flint_Lynn_W._Enquist_Vi/page/n4/mode/2up

 

I could probably use that book as a citation for my lethal virus claims and show that you haven't actually read it. The rest are not books on virology.

 

25 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

How do you calculate something with so many factors? It´s impossible... 

Can you show me the study that says we need to vaccinate everyone? 

1. It's a calculation not a simulation. Every utility calculation is limited. 2. "Show me studies" is not an argument.

 

22 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

@Carl-Richard I didn't even once in this thread post anything against the vaccines, or claim that people shouldn't take them.

You keep bringing that up as if it isn't completely irrelevant. We're talking about vaccine mandates.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Farnaby]

@impulse9 these vaccines don't go into your veins (and as far as I know all vaccines are intramuscular but don't quote me on that one lol). 

I agree with you in the sense that these issues are not black and white and there are probably risks to the vaccine. Everything has risks. I also think it's possible that the side effects are being downplayed to avoid more resistance to getting vaccinated. 

That being said, the risks of not getting vaccinated seem to be waaaay higher and there is a huge scientific consensus around this. Yes, there are scientists who say otherwise but the vast majority agree that the vaccines are safe and effective enough to be a better option than relying on your immune system that has never before encountered this virus.

I personally trust the scientists more than whatever amount of information I can find without being an expert and having no field experience in this topic.

[impulse9]

@Carl-Richard And I'm here to tell you that a vaccine mandate goes against basic human rights.

Quoted from https://www.health.nsw.gov.au/policies/manuals/Documents/consent-section-6.pdf

An adult patient with capacity has the right to refuse any medical treatment, even where that decision may lead to their death or the death of their unborn baby. This right exists even where the reasons for making the choice seem irrational, are unknown or even non-existent. The right to refuse treatment extends to all medical treatment including but not limited to ventilation, cardio-pulmonary resuscitation (CPR), dialysis, antibiotics and artificial feeding and hydration. Treating a person who has validly refused treatment could constitute an assault or battery.

[Leo Gura]

 

[Carl-Richard]

23 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

"even where that decision may lead to their death or the death of their unborn baby."

What about if it hurts other people? If a violent psychopath refuses to undergo a medical procedure that decreases his homicidal tendencies, then he'll just end up in jail anyway. Viruses hurt other people, not just yourself or your unborn baby.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[impulse9]

I get your point @Carl-Richard. I wonder if you get mine.

FWIW I do think that most people should get vaccinated. Most people are too stupid to even bother with hygienic protocols during a pandemic, so I'm not surprised the virus is spreading like wildfire in certain parts of the world. I'm extremely careful when it comes to hygienic protocols precisely because I do not want to cause pain and suffering to others, I minimize the chance by avoiding people in general. But I'm also a recluse who lives practically in the middle of a forest and I spend the vast majority of time by myself. I consider myself a special case in that regard. If I was a normal person who had the burning need to chit-chat with others while sipping coffee in a public place or had a job that demanded close contact to many people every day, then yes, I would get vaccinated as well.