Increase in vaccine coercion

[Consept]

@Seed 

I don't expect you to have a virologist knowledge or know anything about the ingredients, the reason I pointed you to the list is because you stated - 

"Not one car safety law involves forcing citizens to put a shot into their body, that is not sufficiently tested, have no idea what is in it, whether it even works or what the side effects are." 

Part of your argument for not taking the vaccine is based on this, but all this information is available. I appreciate you don't want to insult the doctors by saying you know the words on the list, but is it not more insulting to have a strong opinion that disagrees with the doctors without even knowing the words on the list, whilst also complaining that you don't know what's on the vaccine? 

Regarding your solution, which reading between the lines is to just let nature take its course and not doing anything about the pandemic, I don't want to misquote you but that's what I'm getting from what you said. Where do you draw the line with this, should we stop all drug research and let people just deal with whatever conditions they have for any illness, or is this specific just to covid? 

If we were to roll out your strategy of do nothing there would be millions more dead, not just from covid but over crowded hospitals where people will find it hard to get treatment. From an overall perspective maybe less humans would be better, it's basically thanos' argument, but would you really want to advocate for culling humans? 

[Seed]

20 minutes ago, Consept said:

Part of your argument for not taking the vaccine is based on this, but all this information is available. I appreciate you don't want to insult the doctors by saying you know the words on the list, but is it not more insulting to have a strong opinion that disagrees with the doctors without even knowing the words on the list, whilst also complaining that you don't know what's on the vaccine? 

 

Disagrees with 'some doctors'. Some doctors would say this is not the safest route, However this is obviously not advestised, In every scientific trial there are always some for and some against. 

However. In situations like this, Where there is no absolute answer, I go with my gut. Just because the majority of experts recommend something doesnt mean they are not fallible. And doesnt mean I have to do it.

20 minutes ago, Consept said:

Regarding your solution, which reading between the lines is to just let nature take its course and not doing anything about the pandemic, I don't want to misquote you but that's what I'm getting from what you said. Where do you draw the line with this, should we stop all drug research and let people just deal with whatever conditions they have for any illness, or is this specific just to covid? 

 

This is not what I said. What I said is very clear. 

My solution is to continue the brilliant research of modern science, but give people the choice as to whether they want to offer their body up. I made that very clear. My line is that people should not be forced to have anything. Very simple. I also think we should look at the reactions of these people who have offered themselves up very carefully. And continuing to push despite the current highest side effect of a disrupted mentstual cycle, is not in my opinion the wisest course of action. 

Remember, nature is a process, often there is not a 'solution'. I reiterate, let's try and do what is in our power to help people but at the same time, let's respect that science and medicine is constantly developing and evolving and proven wrong. We as human beings have a right to choose when and where and what we take part in. That's my line. 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Seed

[Gesundheit2]

10 hours ago, BadHippie said:

You mean 600.000 people died WITH a positive test, when they died. That´s not the same as dying from COVID. A tiny part dies BECAUSE of COVID (and even that can be questioned and should be questioned).
What would they write on the death-certificate if we didn´t have a "COVID-test"???  

You always talk about epistemology, yet your epistemology seems to lack in nuance. 

Correct, but covid actually contributes to death one way or another. The virus is actually a risk factor.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[Consept]

@Seed 

Just to clarify it is majority of experts that are for the vaccine as a route out, something like 98%, which is a scientific consensus. This doesn't mean that the vaccine is infallible there will be some issues as with any medication or drug but the efficacy is agreed upon by experts and there is currently no other plan or solution, if a better one did come up, in theory that would be the one they'd agree on. 

As I understand what you're saying people should have a choice of whether to take the vaccine. The issue is that a certain amount of people need to take it for it to be effective and for us to relax social distancing, reduce hospitalisations etc. So by not taking it what people are saying is that the route presented by science is not the right one. Maybe this is true but then you would have to present a feasible alternative. What science has presented is a vaccine with around 95% efficacy and let's say 1% short term side effects. Keep in mind there are no drugs without side effects. So if the vaccine is not good enough, I'm assuming people want more than 95% efficacy and basically no side effects, they also want it developed quickly but with long term testing. Which makes me think that essentially nothing science comes up with will suffice. So I would ask is in an ideal world, what would a way out even look like? Or is it just a case of letting nature take its course and decimating everyone? 

[BadHippie]

@Gesundheit2

Quote

Correct, but covid actually contributes to death one way or another. The virus is actually a risk factor.

How do you know that? If there is no proof for that, but tests that don´t actually show anything but some snippets inside your body. 

In my eyes COVID is just a bunch of symptoms thrown together because they think every symptom comes from what they tested for. There are no new symptoms with COVID, just old symptoms put into a new category "COVID"...

Also as far as my own biology-knowledge goes - if I turn of my perspective about "viruses" - the viruses won´t mutate to kill more, but to be less lethal. Why would the virus want to kill it´s host, that would mean it will die together with it´s host. You can see this in almost any animal, where we have so called viruses. The animals (we as humans also) always live with viruses inside us. You can find them inside everyone, but they aren´t making you sick. (e.g. Epstein-Barr Virus (like 90% of people have them, just not "active"). 

 

IMO: The only way to stop this whole pandemic is by realizing that it´s stupid to test people who are asymptomatic and label them as "potentially infectious". As long we we continue testing we will always have new cases, even if no one would be sick (false positives). 

We need to go back to differential diagnosis, instead of testing everyone for COVID immediately when someone goes to the doctor. (e.g. check our Thailand, they´re doing it a bit differently and they don´t have such high numbers). 

Also we need to stop making COVID look like some Killer-Virus that could kill the whole population. It has a 99%+ Survival Rate for the majority of humanity. 

Also we need to stop this fear-mongering with "long-covid" and instead realize that this is nothing new. It´s just ICS (Post Intensiv Care Syndrom) and CFS (chronic fatique syndrom) reframed as "long-covid"... 

[Mason Riggle]

7 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Which is why wearing a seat belt and having insurance is mandated by law.

So according your own logic it is perfectly fine to hand out tickets for not being vaccinated and to even get sued if you infect someone else. It is also perfectly okay for police to keep a national database of your vaccination record and restrict you from operating without a license.

This is all your own logic.

Also note, car crashes are not contagious. A virus literally goes viral. So a loose virus is WAY worse than all the car crashes in the world. 38k people died of cars crashes, but 600k died from Covid. 20x difference. And Covid hasn't finished.

Except that I don't agree with the seatbelt mandate. I don't think is perfectly okay.   I think seatbelts are a great idea and save lives. I wear mine.  I got the vaccine. I have to have it for my job (which is not a problem.. if they want me to wear a chicken suit to work, I'll wear one.. my employer is not the government, which is where the difference lies). I still don't agree with a Federal Vaccine Mandate. (however, I'm not convinced that 'coercion' equals 'mandate'.. when I see the govt. going door to door forcing people to get vaccinated, then I'll have a problem to deal with, until then, coercion doesn't bother me.. I'm not a slippery sloper). 

My point was, there is always going to be a certain level of collateral damage that we accept in exchange for a certain level of autonomy.   I still think this is a marketing problem.  The harder the govt. (or anyone really) tries to sell these vaccines to the public, the more they will get the feeling they are being hornswoggled by a snake oil salesman (whether they are or aren't). 

They should release a 'homeopathic' version of the vaccine.. and keep it a secret that it's the exact same thing as the real vaccine.. call it something stupid like 'natu-cure' and sell it over the counter as an 'natural Covid immunity booster' in the 'herbal remedies' section and get Dr. Oz to do half hour infomercials for it on late night TV.  You'd have a 98% vaccination rate in no time..

 

Edited August 6, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Gesundheit2]

1 hour ago, BadHippie said:

@Gesundheit2

How do you know that? If there is no proof for that, but tests that don´t actually show anything but some snippets inside your body. 

In my eyes COVID is just a bunch of symptoms thrown together because they think every symptom comes from what they tested for. There are no new symptoms with COVID, just old symptoms put into a new category "COVID"...

Also as far as my own biology-knowledge goes - if I turn of my perspective about "viruses" - the viruses won´t mutate to kill more, but to be less lethal. Why would the virus want to kill it´s host, that would mean it will die together with it´s host. You can see this in almost any animal, where we have so called viruses. The animals (we as humans also) always live with viruses inside us. You can find them inside everyone, but they aren´t making you sick. (e.g. Epstein-Barr Virus (like 90% of people have them, just not "active"). 

 

IMO: The only way to stop this whole pandemic is by realizing that it´s stupid to test people who are asymptomatic and label them as "potentially infectious". As long we we continue testing we will always have new cases, even if no one would be sick (false positives). 

We need to go back to differential diagnosis, instead of testing everyone for COVID immediately when someone goes to the doctor. (e.g. check our Thailand, they´re doing it a bit differently and they don´t have such high numbers). 

Also we need to stop making COVID look like some Killer-Virus that could kill the whole population. It has a 99%+ Survival Rate for the majority of humanity. 

Also we need to stop this fear-mongering with "long-covid" and instead realize that this is nothing new. It´s just ICS (Post Intensiv Care Syndrom) and CFS (chronic fatique syndrom) reframed as "long-covid"... 

lol

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, BadHippie said:

 

Also as far as my own biology-knowledge goes - if I turn of my perspective about "viruses" - the viruses won´t mutate to kill more, but to be less lethal. Why would the virus want to kill it´s host, that would mean it will die together with it´s host.

This is only true if the host is killed before it's able to spread to the next host. We're not just talking about any lethal virus here. We're talking about a lethal COVID-19 strain, which means it will likely have many of the same characteristics as previous strains, meaning that it will be highly contagious AND able to infect many people before they show any symptoms. If we got a highly lethal COVID strain that follows the same timeline of infection to hospitalization, you will have about the same level of viral replication and same level of people infected.

 

1 hour ago, BadHippie said:

In my eyes COVID is just a bunch of symptoms thrown together because they think every symptom comes from what they tested for. There are no new symptoms with COVID, just old symptoms put into a new category "COVID"...

You have no idea what you're talking about. Your understanding of viruses is childlike.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[BadHippie]

Quote

This is only true if the host is killed before it's able to spread to the next host. We're not just talking about any lethal virus here. We're talking about a lethal COVID-19 strain, which means it will likely have many of the same characteristics as previous strains, meaning that it will be highly contagious AND able to infect many people before they show any symptoms. If we got a highly lethal COVID strain that follows the same timeline of infection to hospitalization, you will have about the same level of viral replication and same level of people infected.

Can you show me the studies that proof what you say? All I read are assumptions over assumptions...
Lethal with 0,15% CFR? Or how do you define lethal? In that sense going to McDonalds is also lethal, or smoking a cigarette...

 

Quote

You have no idea what you're talking about. Your understanding of viruses is childlike.

How many books on viruses have you read? I read like 6 over the past year, not just ones that underpin my own perspective but also ones that contradict my own perspective.

How many self-experiments did you do with viruses? 

I could throw the same "insult" back at you. But that´s not the kind of discussion I want to have. So if you have arguments I´m open to listen, but this child-like behavior of name-calling is kinda boring and not what I expect from high-conscious people.

[Carl-Richard]

10 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

Can you show me the studies that proof what you say?

Lmao are you serious? This is basic virology.

 

11 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

Lethal with 0,15% CFR? Or how do you define lethal? In that sense going to McDonalds is also lethal, or smoking a cigarette...

Highly lethal = many people die.

 

15 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

How many books on viruses have you read? I read like 6 over the past year, not just ones that underpin my own perspective but also ones that contradict my own perspective.

Yet you can't understand basic virology.

[impulse9]

The scientific consensus on GMOs is that they're safe for consumption. So why do you avoid those?

[Gesundheit2]

46 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

This is only true if the host is killed before it's able to spread to the next host. We're not just talking about any lethal virus here. We're talking about a lethal COVID-19 strain, which means it will likely have many of the same characteristics as previous strains, meaning that it will be highly contagious AND able to infect many people before they show any symptoms. If we got a highly lethal COVID strain that follows the same timeline of infection to hospitalization, you will have about the same level of viral replication and same level of people infected.

Also, the virus proliferates within the host for a long time. During that time, it mutates probably hundreds of times, but most mutations end up being eliminated because they're mostly weaker/defective strains, and the immune system is capable of killing those off easily. The stronger strains, however, survive and like you said have the same characteristics of previous strains, plus some more that are more adapt to the capabilities of the immune system.

Basically, covid is just going through an evolutionary process, survival for the fittest. But since it spreads relatively easily and a lot more than other viruses (through the respiratory system), and since it's capable of replicating/infecting a variety of tissues, that gives it an edge over other viruses. Meaning more chances for replication, which translates into more mutations, which is what creates the stronger strains.

I'm a medical student, and I have friends that work in hospitals. I'm sure they're all stupid, deluded, closed-minded, liars, and conspiratorial. I myself am just stupid, not much the rest.

But putting that aside, I have a friend who was tested positive, he didn't care and kept interacting normally with his family. His grandma (diabetic and with heart ischemia) got infected with the virus from him. He lived and she died. And that's not an uncommon story.

I don't want to quote that other person because I don't want to enter this debate. It's just silly.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[Preety_India]

11 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

The scientific consensus on GMOs is that they're safe for consumption. So why do you avoid those?

Hey they're not safe. Don't ever eat that stuff 

 

[Preety_India]

4 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

That being said, I don't think the vaccine is helping at all. It seems like a desperate attempt at trying to escape from the inevitable.

Do you mean even after vaccination the person can die? 

[Carl-Richard]

9 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I'm a medical student.

@BadHippie So here you have someone who has read up on some basic virology. What books have you read exactly since you mention it? (not you Gesundheit).

Edited August 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Recursoinominado]

On 05/08/2021 at 2:46 AM, Harlen Kelly said:

@Recursoinominado You are wasting your time, it's analogous with trying to explain a religious fundamentalist that the spaghetti monster does not exist, or a trumper that the election was not stolen, or a flat earther that the earth is not flat. Some people are simply psychologically underdeveloped and there is nothing you can do about it. 

This thread made me realize humanity is fucked, we won't last long with this many dumb people around.

[impulse9]

You call others dumb for being skeptical with regards to what they put into their veins. Yet you probably avoid GMOs like the plague. Hypocrisy?

[AtheisticNonduality]

3 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

You call others dumb for being skeptical with regards to what they put into their veins. Yet you probably avoid GMOs like the plague. Hypocrisy?

I avoid GMOs because they are often bigger but don't taste as good and also because I have the irrational fear of them that was driven into me as a child, not because I actually think they are bad.

[impulse9]

Well, I avoid them because even though the scientific consensus says they're perfectly safe for consumption and they save millions of lives, my intuition says otherwise. Same exact thing with the vaccines.

[Carl-Richard]

43 minutes ago, impulse9 said:

The scientific consensus on GMOs is that they're safe for consumption. So why do you avoid those?

Not eating GMOs doesn't give you and other people respiratory infections.

Edited August 6, 2021 by Carl-Richard