Increase in vaccine coercion

[Consept]

5 minutes ago, BadHippie said:

Because I don´t think I can give the world my gift if I´m unhealthy / sick. Which the "vaccine" will probably make me.

Also I made a commitment to try and reduce the toxins I take inside as much as possible, even if it´s hard.

These are things you want and want to do, this reasoning by definition is egocentric. Also the vaccine will not probably make you sick, at most you might not feel great for a couple days, but it is extremely unlikely you will have any sever adverse reactions, in fact you would be more likely to have bad effects from covid for a longer period, so even on an egocentric viewpoint that reasoning doesnt really work. 

I do understand your concerns and these are issues that are constantly being worked on and learnt about. I also respect youre decision as an egocentric one and you have a right to make that but not taking the vaccine because of a worry that it might make you sick and if it does you wont be able to share your gift with the world is not really looking outside of yourself. 

[Mason Riggle]

@Consept I didn't say it was either or.. humans are animals, of course, and so I include them in my circle of compassion.. I just don't put them at the top of any pedestals. (and I actually see human overpopulation as a bit of a problem, and I don't necessarily think it's a great idea, from a Darwinian evolutionary perspective, to make great efforts to protect the weakest members of a species, ensuring that traits almost guaranteed to be detrimental to the survival (thrival) of the species get passed down to future generations).. 

I mean.. look around you at the mess humans have created for themselves, and life on Earth in general.. do you think we got here by knowing what the fuck we're doing? 

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Consept]

21 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Consept I didn't say it was either or.. humans are animals, of course, and so I include them in my circle of compassion.. I just don't put them at the top of any pedestals. (and I actually see human overpopulation as a bit of a problem, and I don't necessarily think it's a great idea, from a Darwinian evolutionary perspective, to make great efforts to protect the weakest members of a species, ensuring that traits almost guaranteed to be detrimental to the survival (thrival) of the species get passed down to future generations).. 

I mean.. look around you at the mess humans have created for themselves, and life on Earth in general.. do you think we got here by knowing what the fuck we're doing? 

"The road to hell is paved with good intentions."

OK but this is separate issue, personally i would call it a consciousness problem in that majority of society is in certain states of consciousness that are not good for the planet. If everyone was at say yellow and above consciousness levels there wouldnt really be the same issues or messes that we have now. But i also dont think youd find many people at yellow or turquoise whos solution would be to cull people as in not develop ways to save people if its possible, their solution would be to raise consciousness, especially turquoise people. 

My point was more that the reasoning given by @BadHippie was an egocentric perspective as in for him not to suffer and give his gift to the world, hes willing to not take it. You seem to be saying there shouldnt be any special treatment given to humans, which is fine but its a different argument.

[knakoo]

6 hours ago, Recursoinominado said:

This will not be over until 95% of people are fully vaccinated.

95% would be better than 50%, but this will not be over even if 100% of the population gets vaccinated. Vaccins don't work as well on variants as you seem to believe, and there will always be new variants.

[Mason Riggle]

@Consept I'm glad you think it's fine:)  

All reasoning is egocentric.  The key is to expand the ego to include everything.  It's all me.  

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Seeker531]

@BadHippie most of the questions you've had on the last page need a very nuanced and complicated explanation and it is too much to explain in a text format out of the fly. 

 

However I'll try to at least elaborate some of them. 

First of all, It's true that mostly elderly and sick people have the worst symptoms but even people who live healthy have gotten covid and heavy symptoms and there are quiet a lot if you know that about 40 percent of the population are 60+ und even under the younger people there are a unignorable amount of people with preconditions and some of them are really at risk. 

Then the thing with the PCR test is that it gives you (when correctly sampled) a quiet reliable way to give you value on how high your viral load is and that is a critical factor for the amount of virus you exhale through your raspitory system. Additionally, there is among other things the ct value to ensure that there are as little false positives due to random dna pieces as possible. 

I've noticed it's more common among people who take a more critical stance towards vaccination to feel symptoms after the shot. There could be a bias. 

Yeah and in some way of course you're right the government has an agenda and is biased towards the danger and will interpret put many critical perspective unnuanced in the same basket even though some points are valid, but overall it does a good job and it adaptes quiet good to the new data and the immediate changes of the flow. But please consider that many people who put forward arguments against covid measures and the actual threat are eventually with the recent data debunked like eg the number of positive tested person would increase the same amount as the test capacity or that lock downs with the measures don't reduce the incidence. This is a lack in understanding statistics and epistimology. Often these experts are also unable to see the bigger picture and if falsified they handwave that away and find another reason. 

Now, let's cast some light on why there is so much corona fear mongering in the media. First of all, the media always fear monger. Secondly, if they didn't, everybody would give a shit about the measures because it isn't enforced and people would just forget it and that would make the corona cases explode. 

Moreover, if you asked why the goverment makes false promises can have many reasons. One reson is that they as we all come from ignorance and what we know changes over time and we are only able to predict in the very short term, but to not create panic they make us and themselves believe they know more. That does everybody of us and it prevents chaos and instability and fear.

You've surely noticed that at beginn of the pandemic people got afraid and bought the shit out of some essentially necessary product. What do you assume would happen if there were a real outbreak of chaos? Another reason is that in this crisis the government will give people hope that the measurements will end quickly because it's psychologically better to keep it positive and always talk about negative things in short term. Another thing is that many of the bad prophecies from the ct's stemmes from the selfishness of people in general, like the states's goverments in Germany did their own selfish thing to look good which caused damage and forced the central government to step in as it is in the United States the case. The is the case with people who don't keep up the measures and anti vaccers. That increases the new covid cases and the portion of the vaccinated population is too low to be effective and reduce measures. 

And it would be great if you could see the greater circle of concern. For example, at the time when so many people were hospitalized the hospitals hadn't enough capacities for nessary operations and that caused some colleteral damage as well. Also, there might be a benefit when you grow your consciousness to become more world centric and that outnumbers easily the amount of consciousness you would lose though vaccination (this vaccine has far less toxins than the older ones) and if you happen to be a smoker then there is already 100x more toxine and you don't need to worry about it. I would also propose for you to stop feeding that narrative but rather start learning a bit of science and statistics and psychology so that you can start making good sense of things. And maybe one more point. deconstructing science is good work  for your spiritual growth but it doesn't make scientific knowledge completely invalid. At last it is a useful tool and the deconstruction aims to seeing that, INCLUDING it and going beyond and be a scientist during the process as the buddha was. 

Finally, I didn't go into the damage of the action to prevent the virus from spreading. The cost is huge but the society looks for survival in the short run and actual lives are at stake so the this damage come secondly as long as it is beareble for the whole.

this shouldn't be seen as arrogance but as an attempt to clear misunderstandings and it's still up to you if you take the vaccine or leave it. At the first 6 months of the pandemic I considered corona totally blown up but I stayed open and with the new data I've changed my mind. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Seeker531

[BadHippie]

@Seeker531

Honestly I don´t know what to answer to that. Just shows that you didn´t get my point.

I don´t want your interpretations for answering these questions. I have "better" - more nuanced - answers myself. But thanks for the work.

These questions were just to show that this whole narrative - that our media and politics build up - is full of deception and falsehood.

What are you trying to do? If you honestly want to change my mind, show me a proof that this so called "Virus" actually causes all those symptoms.

It was never "proven" that a virus causes all these symptoms. That´s just societies interpretation and I have a different one. You can´t prove it to me. So this whole discussion is useless imo. 

I actually went and checked for myself if it is true. Did you do the same? Maybe it´s true for you that viruses cause those symptoms, but it´s not for me. 

Don´t take this video as if I take it as truth. You still have to do all the sensemaking for yourself. This is just as a pointer.

Edited August 5, 2021 by BadHippie

[Mason Riggle]

More than 38,000 people die every year in crashes on U.S. roadways. ...

An additional 4.4 million are injured seriously enough to require medical attention.

Road crashes are the leading cause of death in the U.S. for people aged 1-54.

Why are we not mandating a 15 MPH speed limit!! We could be eliminating soooooo much suffering.. but the fact is.. we don't really care about human death and suffering as much as we pretend too..  To be able to travel in comfort, and get where we need to go quickly, is apparently worth 38,000 human lives/year... but I'm not sure we're ready to have that conversation here.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Windappreciator]

@BadHippie

Who says your narrative is not full of deception and falsehood? You?

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Windappreciator

[BadHippie]

@Windappreciator

Im not saying I'm free of it. That's why I'm here talking with you guys. Listening to different perspectives and trying to make my perspective more nuanced. 

Sadly almost all of the posts here are just full-on name-calling without any value and no effort put into Sensemaking. 

 

@Mason Riggle

Yeah it's crazy. We could do so much more if it actually was about health and human lives. 

There is this great book: https://www.amazon.de/Spend-Billion-World-Better-Place/dp/1940003172/ref=mp_s_a_1_3?dchild=1&keywords=how+to+spend+75+billion+to+make+the+world+a+better+place&qid=1628179417&sprefix=How+to+spend+&sr=8-3

It shows in a compelling way what would be possible, if it actually was about health and humanity, with just 75 Billion dollars, which is nothing compared to what we spend on tests, vaccines and lockdown-consequences. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by BadHippie

[Seeker531]

@BadHippie

Yeah, I know her points and I've already mentioned yet not in detail that there are ways to make the test reliable and it worked quiet well for other viruses. But I see the page she referred to denies the concept or rather the existence of viruses. I've checked it out and must say there is so much misinformation, bullshit and fear mongering that its almost crazy. 

Back to the subject...even though you can't separate it completely  from its context or enviroment and you can't just get one pure thing out but the procedure proofed to be reliable. You can purify the solution without any organism in it then add a bacteria solution and then your sample, then purify and repeat until one strain of virus is left and then enrich it. the dna of the bacteria is known and then you've got other pieces which don't come from nowhere. I am a lab technician and I have worked in the field of biotechnology but hey what do I know. 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=huEaH-boaoY

And btw posting of this misinformation as in the link isn't allowed. 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Seeker531

[Carl-Richard]

2 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

To be able to travel in comfort, and get where we need to go quickly, is apparently worth 38,000 human lives/year... but I'm not sure we're ready to have that conversation here.

Letting a hyper-contagious virus spread freely in the population and allowing it the possibility to mutate into a hyper-lethal variant is more analogous to removing breaks from all cars.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Mason Riggle]

@Carl-Richard are you talking about Humans or Covid?  We should mandate Earth gets itself a Human Vaccine... they're spreading like wildfire... and have become hyper-lethal. 

10 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

Letting a hyper-contagious virus spread freely in the population and allowing it to possibly mutate into a hyper-lethal variant is more analogous to removing breaks from all cars.

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Carl-Richard]

1 minute ago, Mason Riggle said:

are you talking about Humans or Covid? 

...wha?? 

[Mason Riggle]

@Carl-Richard  I edited my comment for Clarity.. Viruses and Humans are at war.. and I'm not on either team. 

[Windappreciator]

@Carl-Richard @BadHippie

 

The mutation will happen because of poverish countries and animal agriculture, regardless. 

Not saying you should not get vaccinated, but you guys do not have the gaze for what is important here 

Sorry for tagging you Hippie, was accident.

Edited August 5, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Carl-Richard]

4 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

The mutation will happen because of poverish countries and animal agriculture, regardless. 

Not saying you should not get vaccinated

Ok.

 

5 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

but you guys do not have the gaze for what is important here 

What is that?

[BadHippie]

@Seeker531

Can you elaborate on how the PCR is reliable? 

[Carl-Richard]

7 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

@Carl-Richard  I edited my comment for Clarity.. Viruses and Humans are at war.. and I'm not on either team. 

Humanity is the only disease humans aren't vaccinating for  

[Mason Riggle]

@Carl-Richard my perspective is similar to that of a Starfish.. I don't care if the Lion eats the Gazelle, or if the Gazelle escapes the Lion. 

Lions eating Gazelles is great from the perspective of a Lion, not so great from the Gazelle's point of view... 

Doesn't matter which one happens to the Starfish.

 

 

Should the Gazelle escape the Lion? Of course the Gazelle selfishly thinks so, but reality is indifferent to which one happens. There's nothing that objectively 'should' happen, and nothing I objectively 'should' do. 

 

Edited August 5, 2021 by Mason Riggle