The confusion causing the culture wars

[Zigzag Idiot]

Growth hierarchies and dominance hierarchies. 
Greens refusal of all hierarchies disturbs the practicality of those in blue. It understandably creates confusion and fear and throws gas on the fire of the culture war.

Ken Wilber makes other points here that could also be elaborated on.

[Leo Gura]

So giving black and gay people more equal rights creates confusion and fear and throws gas on the fire?

That's some grade-A gaslighting.

[DocWatts]

While I have great respect for Ken Wilber and largely agree with much of his philosophy and ethics, I do think that his negative experiences within Academia (who were resistant to many of his ideas) created a Shadow that has prevented him from fully Integrating SD-Green, which is why he demonizes it to some degree. In particular, one gets a sense that he conflates a specific form of somewhat extreme Academic Postmodernism as broadly representative of contemporary Green.

Not that this is unique to Wilber, it's a common prejudice among Intellectuals who project an exaggerated importance to Academia on the broader Culture.

While Ken Wilber's analysis of Hierarchies is on point, using confusion about Hierarchies as the primary focal point to view the Culture Wars is a highly Reductionist way of looking at such a broad issue. 

It also overlooks the fact that much of the Culture Wars is something that is intentionally being stoked by Bad Actors who have an interest in exasperating social and cultural divisions to further their own Political or Economic aims.

Edited July 31, 2021 by DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

The thing is, these MAGA conservatives are not going to bargain with you. They are the ones who stoke and feast off the culture wars the most. There is no reasoning with them or meeting them half-way. They are not honest actors when they cast basic functions of government as communism. They are going to fear-monger about almost any modern improvements to government at this point. So to blame this on Green Post-Modernism is just a deep misreading of the political situation.

There is nothing Post-Modernism\t about allowing people fair access to vote, or $15 min wage, or asking people to wear masks in a pandemic. The notion that Post-Modernism has taken hold of society and leveled all the hierarchy is just absurd. No one knows what Post-Modernism even means and hierarchies are still deeply entrenched.

Conservatives are just looking for any scapegoat they can find at this point, and people like JP give them the perfect target with an invented boogeymen "Neo-Marxist Post-Modernism".

[Windappreciator]

Hm, yeah those hierarchies are important to some extend, especially for adults that are still within lower stages. But once green is established it should not been an issue for newer generations to climb out of the lower stages simply out of cultural intuition. 

[Windappreciator]

But are we really talking about green here. It's more like a beginning into green of orange what is tried to being established.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Windappreciator]

I don't think it is necessary to exhaust every previous stage to the fullest in form to succesfully and healthy climb into the next one for an individual. That is done once culturally and then we move on.

But who knows, who knows.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Windappreciator

[Zigzag Idiot]

 

36 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So giving black and gay people more equal rights creates confusion and fear and throws gas on the fire?

That's some grade-A gaslighting.

That’s not what I meant.

 

19 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

While I have great respect for Ken Wilber and largely agree with much of his philosophy and ethics, I do think that his negative experiences within Academia (who were resistant to many of his ideas) created a Shadow that has prevented him from fully Integrating SD-Green, which is why he demonizes it to some degree. In particular, one gets a sense that he conflates a specific form of somewhat extreme Academic Postmodernism as broadly representative of contemporary Green.

Not that this is unique to Wilber, it's a common prejudice among Intellectuals who project an exaggerated importance to Academia on the broader Culture.

While Ken Wilber's analysis of Hierarchies is on point, using confusion about Hierarchies as the primary focal point to view the Culture Wars is a highly Reductionist way of looking at such a broad issue.  

Respectfully, I think you might miss-understand Wilber’s perspective slightly . I could be wrong or misinterpreting your statement though.

 

16 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

The thing is, these MAGA conservatives are not going to bargain with you. They are the ones who stoke and feast off the culture wars the most. There is no reasoning with them or meeting them half-way. They are not honest actors when they cast basic functions of government as communism. They are going to fear-monger about almost any modern improvements to government at this point. So to blame this on Green Post-Modernism is just a deep misreading of the political situation.

I’m not blaming Green and I agree with your view of the MAGA conservatives but Green needs to wise up and find better skillful means which has a chance of neutralizing the growth of hatred from lower levels perhaps.

 

@Windappreciator , I agree.

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Zigzag Idiot
Edited reply to DocWatts

[Leo Gura]

16 minutes ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

but Green needs to wise up and find better skillful means which has a chance of neutralizing the growth of hatred from lower levels perhaps.

Of course this would be nice. But for 2 points:

1) Spiral Wizardry is not a Green quality, it is a Yellow quality. So expecting it of Green is rather naive.

2) Even if Green bends over backwards for the current conservative party, they will still get smeared as socialists and so on. There is no reasoning with the MAGA people. It's like trying to appease Hitler. Bending over for conservatives is not necessarily the right strategy. Compromise requires an honest actor. MAGA are not honest actors.

[Zigzag Idiot]

3 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course this would be nice. But for 2 points:

1) Spiral Wizardry is not a Green quality, it is a Yellow quality. So expecting it of Green is rather naive.

2) Even if Green bends over backwards for the current conservative party, they will still get smeared as socialists and so on. There is no reasoning with the MAGA people. It's like trying to appease Hitler. Bending over for conservatives is not necessarily the right strategy. Compromise requires an honest actor. MAGA are not honest actors.

1) Naive is my middle name.

2) True, I get what you say. I agree.

[StarfoxEpiphany]

@Leo Gura

57 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

So giving black and gay people more equal rights

And you, Leo, are the biggest liar of all with such a claim that black people aren't receiving equal rights.  The only reason you even say it is because you know everybody is already against racism.

 

[Leo Gura]

2 minutes ago, StarfoxEpiphany said:

everybody is already against racism

Ahahahahaha...

[Windappreciator]

@StarfoxEpiphany Seems to me bias blinded to assume that of a guy who shares dissonant philosophy.

Edited July 31, 2021 by Windappreciator

[StarfoxEpiphany]

@Leo Gura 

Keep clinging to it, people know what you're doing and you are going to fucking pay for it.

[Zigzag Idiot]

@Windappreciator ???

 

Who understands why Leo laughed in the post above.

[Windappreciator]

@StarfoxEpiphany What is he doing?

[Windappreciator]

@Zigzag Idiot What do you mean?

[Zigzag Idiot]

@StarfoxEpiphany Could be you're projecting some.

[DocWatts]

58 minutes ago, Zigzag Idiot said:

Respectfully, I think you might miss-understand Wilber’s perspective slightly . I could be wrong or misinterpreting your statement though.

What I was referring to wasn't his depiction of Dominator vs Growth Hierarchies (which is completely on point).

Rather, I was referring more broadly to some of his perceptions of contemporary Green outside of an Academic context, which are somewhat biased by his experiences in Academia.

He basically admits as much (that he's developed a bit of a Shadow from his experiences in Academia), during an Interview when the subject of Jordan Peterson was brought up, and how they have some of the same criticisms of Green.

Edited July 31, 2021 by DocWatts

[Opo]

13 minutes ago, StarfoxEpiphany said:

@Leo Gura.  The only reason you even say it is because you know everybody is already against racism.

What you need to understand is that racists are not just the people who want to kill minorities. It's also the people who have prejudices about someone on the basis of their group.