Leo and his behaviors and actions

[wildflower]

Hey all, I have recently discovered Leo, and I agree with pretty much everything he states, but one thing confuses me. He has hinted at perhaps what he says and how he behaves being too different things, while simultaneously claiming the opposite, or perhaps he has already spoke or clarified this before. If so please help.

He talks about selflessness, renounciation, non pursuing of material form pleasures, and the amount you pursue this, the more selfish you become, the less your capacity to love, the further away from God. Which is completely true

But then he talks about sex and porn or masturbation, and it seems as though he has no problem with this. He also claims he's the most awake person on the planet or ever lived. 

I can't reconcile this? Does he wilfully and consciously engage in sense pleasure pursuits? And does he think hes the most awake person on the planet.

[Matthew85]

Any negative judgment's you put on sense pleasures is you doing it, not god. God loves it all equally. 

[wildflower]

Sure, but that isn't wisdom, or truth. The truth is sense pleasure is a net loss, it causes you suffer, makes you more selfish, less capable of love, furhter away from God.

The question isn't about how God would judge your ignorance of sense pleasure - to be clear

[wildflower]

@DefinitelyNotARobot this is the type of thing nothing I will say will convince you of the truth, so the only thing I can say is to see for yourself in your own experience. You can also see how it makes sense if you define selflessness as your capacity to love, and the desire for sense pleasure which essentially is an attachment to sense pleasure as an impediment to selflessness. I mean theres tons of different ways to skin this cat, but ultimately it boils down to your desire for truth, desire for for the capacity to love, wisdom and honesty.

At the other side of renouncing attachments and desires, is a net gain, not a loss, but sometimes (if not always) it's hard to see that

[Leo Gura]

25 minutes ago, wildflower said:

He also claims he's the most awake person on the planet or ever lived. 

I have not claimed that.

You need more nuance.

[wildflower]

@DefinitelyNotARobot your ability to love and accept sense pleasure, desire and the ego, doesn't mean you act on it or pursure it.

Here let me show directly the erroneous epistemic views you have, and I offer this with as little abrasion as possible, it's also the same as Mathew above:

You can change within your or mathews statements sense pleasure with absolutely anything else in the universe, but to show you the erroneous view, change it to murder 20 kittens, or to 5 innocent babies. God still forgives you. But should you do it? Can you see how God forgiving you isn't a justification for you to do it, or that it won't negatively impact you? Or is in anyway wise? Or without consequence? 

[wildflower]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I have not claimed that.

You need more nuance.

Sorry if I misinterpreted you - wasn't intentional.

I actually emailed you recently (3 times last week). I feel like we are brothers in sorts. Our journeys are extremely similiar, and I resonate and agree with everything you say, and have come to almost the same conclusions on the videos I've seen from you (I discovered you only recently)

I ask this without any prejudice or judgement at all, if you believe in what you say, are you embodying it fully, and if not why not? Like none of the theory or understanding is complex or complicated, right? It's just the actualizing and living in accordance to truth that seems the hard part. How are you coping with it?

Edited July 29, 2021 by wildflower

[snowyowl]

Sensory pleasure is sensory pleasure in the moment. Suffering is caused when you are attached to it, like an illusory ego wanting to hold onto something impermanent. If you simply surf the wave of pleasure while it lasts, and let go when it goes, where's the problem? Murdering kittens is suffering because you (hypothetically please!) are both the murderer and the murdered kittens. No two, no separate me. 

Edited July 29, 2021 by snowyowl

[wildflower]

1 minute ago, snowyowl said:

Sensory pleasure is sensory pleasure in the moment. Suffering is caused when you are attached to it, like an illusory ego wanting to hold onto something impermanent. If you simply surf the wave of pleasure while it lasts, and let go when it goes, where's the problem? Murdering kittens is suffering because you (hypothetically please!) are both the murderer and the murdered kittens. No two, no separate me. 

 

It depends on your level of understanding, conciousness and wisdom. I'm not trying to create an aversion to sense pleasure, and if you can't see that acting on sense pleasure is always ultimately selifshness and a net loss, not just for you but for the person you have sex with (at some point you will understand the harm you are doing to them), then no problem, it isn't true for you right now.

I can only share my own experience. The logic, truth or wisdom behind it, really shouldn't be hard or complex to understand, when you understand the connection between love, selflessness, selfishness, sense pleasure, desire etc etc

But look being human isn't easy, but we should be clear to separate truth, how we currently behave, and our ability to accept or embody truth.

[wildflower]

2 minutes ago, DefinitelyNotARobot said:

@wildflower I'm just confused because people always make desire out to be such a bad thing, but then they still eat and sleep and live life. Life itself is kind of selfish, because you have to collect resources to maintain your body, which means that you have to take something that could potentially benefit someone else for yourself. But, and correct me if I'm wrong, that doesn't mean that you shouldn't live life. In the same way, if you are horny, why not jerk off to porn? Sure there are other things you could be doing, but your body would enjoy it. And why not treat your body nicely from time to time? That's all I'm trying to unterstand really. I'm currently trying to become more loving towards ego, so I'd like to hear your side.

Ultimately all material existence is inherently suffering, and when God realizes it fully, the universe will stop. This is a bold hypothesis that is a tangent

In answer to your question, it is a continuum, not a binary absolute, it is a convergence. You will as you see for yourself, in your own experience, which is your own epistemic understanding, start to gradually see and know the truth about sense pleasure, such that the idea of renouncing sex for example or for masturbation, will cross the threshold of non problem. It will literally be no problem at all, because you fully understand it's a net loss, and you prefer not to do it, out of choice.

Right now the idea of giving it up is pretty scary, and you resist it, which is fine, I'm not saying to force yourself, that just causes more suffering on top fo doing it. You don't actually get anywhere that way. Just be honest with yourself, and open minded to the possibility

[snowyowl]

@wildflower thanks for sharing your experience, I guess we've all  been hurt by following our desires. I certainly have, I'm no sage. But on the other hand, resisting my desires is suffering too. Maybe that's another level of meaning to the middle way. 

[wildflower]

4 minutes ago, snowyowl said:

@wildflower thanks for sharing your experience, I guess we've all  been hurt by following our desires. I certainly have, I'm no sage. But on the other hand, resisting my desires is suffering too. Maybe that's another level of meaning to the middle way. 

I don't meant to be anal about this. But I just want to be clear, for all that might possibly read this. It is completely and utterly possibly to have a relationship to sexual pleasure, such that not doing it, isn't just not any problem what-so-ever, it's a choice, a preferred choice

I think from our brief communication, this paradigm Im presenting is so far fetched, you probably think Im in denial or crazy. But it's the truth, and I would only encourage you to remain open to the possibility of what Im saying - years ago if someone told me I could have the relationship to sexuality as I do now, I'd have the exact same reaction of everyone else in this thread - so I completely understand you all, but honestly I didn't start this thread to pressure you or convince into anything.

I merely wanted to speak to Leo, as I feel like I am at a similiar stage and wanted to know how he is coping with this existential proposition

Edited July 29, 2021 by wildflower

[thisintegrated]

57 minutes ago, wildflower said:

Hey all, I have recently discovered Leo, and I agree with pretty much everything he states, but one thing confuses me. He has hinted at perhaps what he says and how he behaves being too different things, while simultaneously claiming the opposite, or perhaps he has already spoke or clarified this before. If so please help.

He talks about selflessness, renounciation, non pursuing of material form pleasures, and the amount you pursue this, the more selfish you become, the less your capacity to love, the further away from God. Which is completely true

But then he talks about sex and porn or masturbation, and it seems as though he has no problem with this. He also claims he's the most awake person on the planet or ever lived. 

I can't reconcile this? Does he wilfully and consciously engage in sense pleasure pursuits? And does he think hes the most awake person on the planet.

tbh you sound like a hardcore Muslim/Christian, lol.

[snowyowl]

@DefinitelyNotARobot hi, your ideas aren't far fetched or weird at all, in fact I've met plenty of voluntarily celibate people who I enormously respect. I'd say it's a matter of knowing yourself well enough, to know what's the most fitting lifestyle for you. Horses for courses kinda thing. Personally, I'm not judging which is more or less advanced. 

 

 @DefinitelyNotARobot nice   

Edited July 29, 2021 by snowyowl

[Depersonilized]

@wildflower Don't mistake the problem of ego with a problem of being. The foundational nature of being a living creature is suffering, however, being extends "beyond" that. Don't assume creatures without the ability to self-identify don't have a self either. They certainly want to live, and that says something. Sensory pleasure only becomes a problem if that's all one looks for in a pursuit to relieve pain/have a good life, but what exactly is the difference between sensory pleasure other types of pleasure? I'm sure you take pleasure in learning and talking with others, and you do because you're here. You would not do anything if you did not take pleasure in it in some way. 

Reality takes pleasure in itself to the infinite-degree. Enjoy life and what it has to offer.  God certainly does

[knakoo]

33 minutes ago, wildflower said:

I don't meant to be anal about this. But I just want to be clear, for all that might possibly read this. It is completely and utterly possibly to have a relationship to sexual pleasure, such that not doing it, isn't just not any problem what-so-ever, it's a choice, a preferred choice

I think from our brief communication, this paradigm Im presenting is so far fetched, you probably think Im in denial or crazy. But it's the truth, and I would only encourage you to remain open to the possibility of what Im saying - years ago if someone told me I could have the relationship to sexuality as I do now, I'd have the exact same reaction of everyone else in this thread - so I completely understand you all, but honestly I didn't start this thread to pressure you or convince into anything.

I merely wanted to speak to Leo, as I feel like I am at a similiar stage and wanted to know how he is coping with this existential proposition

From your perspective/understanding, being in a relationship and having sex with your partner as an expression of love is also a net loss ?

[wildflower]

12 minutes ago, knakoo said:

From your perspective/understanding, being in a relationship and having sex with your partner as an expression of love is also a net loss ?

Theres more meta and or fundamental things: the being in a romantic (essentially discriminatory) relationship in the first place is a net loss. But honestly this type of discussion doesn't lead anywhere because it's an extremely hard truth to accept, like all truths, until you accept them, then you realize how much better it is. Thats the funny thing about truth, relatively it's hard to accept, but absolutely its the best thing for you, and you will ultimately understand that, but only after the fact. But like all truths, it's little at a time, the Ultimate Truths might be extremely hard to take right now, all at once, so go easy on yourself and step by step, if its true and real, it should pay fruits

[Inliytened1]

@wildflower your talking the distinction between enlightenment and embodiment.  They are two different things.  I'm awakened  l but I don't always embody Truth.  It ain't always easy when you have a powerful ego.  But it doesn't mean you can't be enlightened or be spiritually gifted as fuck or an intuition though the roof.

The older I get though I start to embody it more because it causes less suffering.   Selfishness is the cause of all suffering.

[Leo Gura]

2 hours ago, wildflower said:

I ask this without any prejudice or judgement at all, if you believe in what you say, are you embodying it fully, and if not why not? Like none of the theory or understanding is complex or complicated, right? It's just the actualizing and living in accordance to truth that seems the hard part. How are you coping with it?

Three points about that you should contemplate and grasp:

1) It is actually impossible for any finite form to embody the Infinite. So what you expect is actually prohibited at the metaphysical level. The physical body and the finite mind has MANY limits which you will never transcend without death.

2) What you understand about reality and self-actualization will far exceed your ability to embody. And this is not a bug but a feature.

3) Your need and attachment to embodiment is itself an ego attachment. If you had no ego, you would not give a fuck about embodiment of anything. You would just flow along with life. So, ironically, your desire for gurus to act perfectly is just an egoic projection which will fall away after some deep awakening.

Many of the things I talk about I don't and never will fully embody. Drop the perfectionism and just aim for improvement, not perfection.

And if you think that jerking off or watching porn contradicts spirituality or awakening, you really misunderstand spirituality and awakening.

[Bob Seeker]

Personal development is very relevant, and this includes getting money, sex etc. 

leo emphasizes awakening AND development. 

Non-duality does not mean choosing only spirit, and forgetting form. both can be partaken of.

 Most people are too focused on form, mesmerized by it, and when it comes down to it, you should choose the harder, less sensuous path, to develop yourself. Yet, this doesn’t always have to be the case.