If Oneness is true, how are you not fully enlightened right now?

[Mu_]

18 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

If enlightenment exists and is possible, how can you not be it as you are right now? How can there be a Buddha who attained to enlightenment and a you that isn’t enlightened if everything is one? 
 

This belief “I exist but am not enlightened” relies on nothing but dualities. Buddha/me. Truth/illusion. Enlightened/unenlightened. Enlightenment is not reliant on special circumstances of being a specific illusory self with history of spiritual practice. Believing you are unenlightened takes illusion. It’s fake. It’s an identity. Anyone who speaks of oneness but thinks they aren’t enlightened does not truly know what perfect oneness is. Perfect oneness is unspeakable. It’s not Love. It’s not Truth. It’s not God. Why? Because these things are all defined. If God/Love/Truth has any permanent meaning or quality to it (even meaninglessness or no qualities), it’s an imposter. 

Then this really begs the question then, that "unenlightened" and "enlightened" are not happening, with there never having been nor the possibility of there being someones, that could be one or the other.

[Thought Art]

19 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

If enlightenment exists and is possible, how can you not be it as you are right now? How can there be a Buddha who attained to enlightenment and a you that isn’t enlightened if everything is one? 
 

This belief “I exist but am not enlightened” relies on nothing but dualities. Buddha/me. Truth/illusion. Enlightened/unenlightened. Enlightenment is not reliant on special circumstances of being a specific illusory self with history of spiritual practice. Believing you are unenlightened takes illusion. It’s fake. It’s an identity. Anyone who speaks of oneness but thinks they aren’t enlightened does not truly know what perfect oneness is. Perfect oneness is unspeakable. It’s not Love. It’s not Truth. It’s not God. Why? Because these things are all defined. If God/Love/Truth has any permanent meaning or quality to it (even meaninglessness or no qualities), it’s an imposter. 

Concepts vs actuality.

 

[Leo Gura]

45 minutes ago, Mu_ said:

Then this really begs the question then, that "unenlightened" and "enlightened" are not happening, with there never having been nor the possibility of there being someones, that could be one or the other.

YOU are one and the other.

You guys need to drop this notion that there is no enlightenment because there is no one to become enlightened.

There is YOU! YOU become enlightened! YOU ARE enlightenment.

[James12345]

19 hours ago, BipolarGrowth said:

If enlightenment exists and is possible, how can you not be it as you are right now? How can there be a Buddha who attained to enlightenment and a you that isn’t enlightened if everything is one? 
 

This belief “I exist but am not enlightened” relies on nothing but dualities. Buddha/me. Truth/illusion. Enlightened/unenlightened. Enlightenment is not reliant on special circumstances of being a specific illusory self with history of spiritual practice. Believing you are unenlightened takes illusion. It’s fake. It’s an identity. Anyone who speaks of oneness but thinks they aren’t enlightened does not truly know what perfect oneness is. Perfect oneness is unspeakable. It’s not Love. It’s not Truth. It’s not God. Why? Because these things are all defined. If God/Love/Truth has any permanent meaning or quality to it (even meaninglessness or no qualities), it’s an imposter. 

If you realize you have never born nor in the life, what will be the permanent or fully enlightenment? Who is there to get permanent enlightenment?

Edited July 27, 2021 by James12345

[Thought Art]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

YOU are one and the other.

You guys need to drop this notion that there is no enlightenment because there is no one to become enlightened.

There is YOU! YOU become enlightened! YOU ARE enlightenment.

None of this makes sense to me.

I get that enlightenment is possible. But, a lot of this is just words and ideas.

There is not ONE bubble. I am one bubble ,but so have you.

[Terell Kirby]

9 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

YOU are one and the other.

You guys need to drop this notion that there is no enlightenment because there is no one to become enlightened.

There is YOU! YOU become enlightened! YOU ARE enlightenment.

Exactly...all of this is resistance to God realization. You are God guys, therefore you can become enlightened..as God only, not your imaginary human identity.

[Mason Riggle]

@Thought Art recognize that the 'bubbles' are not as separate as you might imagine.  When I say to you, 'don't think of a pink elephant', I am shaping your bubble... your bubble is shaped by 'everything which is not your bubble'.  In this way you might recognize how everything is interdependent on everything else (it's all one system).. there is no 'separation'.   

Where is the triangle?  If the triangle in this picture could talk.. it might say, 'I am not separate from that which is not me, in fact, if what I am is what is not me, I must be all of it.' 

Edited July 27, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[4201]

32 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

None of this makes sense to me.

I get that enlightenment is possible. But, a lot of this is just words and ideas.

There is not ONE bubble. I am one bubble ,but so have you.

I am in your bubble right now. I appear as a forum user replying to you. But there's nothing to me outside what you see in your bubble. Because there is no outside that bubble. I am you just like everything else in your bubble. You are the bubble.

[Mu_]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

YOU are one and the other.

You guys need to drop this notion that there is no enlightenment because there is no one to become enlightened.

There is YOU! YOU become enlightened! YOU ARE enlightenment.

I hear what you saying but I think there is some worthwhile subtlety in the many different ways of saying and presenting “......” or God if you want to use that symbolic symbol, in which I believe each seem to have possible awakening potentials  

For example is God enlightened? I would say no, God is God, enlightenment and non-enlightenment are concepts of which god are the fabric of

Is there someone separate from God?  No of course not, there is only God. 

So that’s where the communication was coming from.  Someone never is or was nor could become enlightened or not enlightened.  

Also as I know your aware of, each person you respond to, you may articulate a little different to get across something, but I do see a potential issue if everyone here is Zen and I’m conveying Christianity. Something I’ll have to continue to be cognizant of. 

[BipolarGrowth]

7 hours ago, WelcometoReality said:

@BipolarGrowth Believing that one is enlightened or not doesn't make that the experience for most people. There are levels of consciousness which people are operating from and even levels of enlightenment. Check out David R Hawkins book Power vs Force for a map of consciousness levels.

What you are pointing to is your perspective right now. Which is fine but was that your experience a year ago?

I’ve found that believing one has the capability to reach any possibility is required for higher level work. There’s a reason there are so many talking about being God, everything, etc. If they don’t realize the whole lifetime of any Buddha was created and destroyed in a specific set of sensations they are investigating always after those sensations disappear, it isn’t true oneness. There can’t be the idea that there is even a being to be fully enlightened once it has occurred. Any self that is attached to the concept of enlightenment in someone’s conscious experience other than the sensations occurring and falling away right now is hopelessly distant from actual enlightenment. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[BipolarGrowth]

1 hour ago, James12345 said:

If you realize you have never born nor in the life, what will be the permanent or fully enlightenment? Who is there to get permanent enlightenment?

Death and constant impermanence is what remains. There is no consistent bundle of sensations you could mistake as a self. Everything just morphs as sensations always disappearing into something new. The idea that you are contained within what was born is precisely what keeps people from the no self aspect of the three doors to awakening. 

[Carl-Richard]

"Oneness" as The Absolute, "you" as the relative. Don't conflate the two.

[James12345]

4 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Death and constant impermanence is what remains. There is no consistent bundle of sensations you could mistake as a self. Everything just morphs as sensations always disappearing into something new. The idea that you are contained within what was born is precisely what keeps people from the no self aspect of the three doors to awakening. 

Whatever you say is the knowledge that comes from the self, and if there is no self what knowledge is left or what is left? Whatever left is what You really are, as always been, not even moved nor began.

[Consilience]

7 hours ago, Nahm said:

No you, enlightenment; no you, no enlightenment. 

This guy. ??

[Consilience]

15 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

Any self that is attached to the concept of enlightenment in someone’s conscious experience other than the sensations occurring and falling away right now is hopelessly distant from actual enlightenment. 

100% 

[BipolarGrowth]

8 minutes ago, James12345 said:

Whatever you say is the knowledge that comes from the self, and if there is no self what knowledge is left or what is left? Whatever left is what You really are, as always been, not even moved nor began.

Enlightenment and truth were always present. It’s not about creating some new enlightenment. It’s about throwing away everything posing as enlightenment or not enlightenment. When you can’t distinguish between death and life or truth and illusion, you’ve seen through the whole illusion. You become something that’s only true staying power and permanence rests in its ability to be so impermanent that it can be anything. The only basis for a truth that lasts in impermanent experience is realizing the process of death and change is not a self. You’re always going to have death and change in reality, but once you transcend by dying completely, you realize that not even death and impermanence can explain what is going on as lasting impermanence as impermanence cannot exist without an illusion of something which could be permanent. 

[James12345]

5 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

You’re always going to have death and change in reality, but once you transcend by dying completely, you realize that not even death and impermanence can explain what is going on as lasting impermanence as impermanence cannot exist without an illusion of something which could be permanent. 

You never began. There is no going nor coming back nor transcending. Instead just a thought process. You have no past no future. Always same. Nothing. 

[BipolarGrowth]

20 minutes ago, James12345 said:

You never began. There is no going nor coming back nor transcending. Instead just a thought process. You have no past no future. Always same. Nothing. 

“You never began” is an illusion as well though. You did begin this instant in your memory. This is fusing no-self with God. If there’s a beginning to which things could be said to not come from, it still exists as a partial illusory paradigm to explain the inexplicable. 

[James12345]

5 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

“You never began” is an illusion as well though.

Of course, if you think this is conversations or sentences. 

 

5 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

You did begin this instant in your memory. This is fusing no-self with God. If there’s a beginning to which things could be said to not come from, it still exists as a partial illusory paradigm to explain the inexplicable. 

No. There is no beggining nor these are sentences nor talking. You think that there is such a thing as thinking but there is not. 

Edited July 27, 2021 by James12345

[Nahm]

@Consilience ?