Post- Dunning-Kruger depression

[Carl-Richard]

You realize that you weren't as smart, developed or awake as you thought you were, and now when the false sense of security is ripped away from under your feet, you feel extremely inadequate. Has anybody experienced this before? One time? Many times? Progressively or sporadically? What triggered it? For me, it seems to be a phase that has been building up over time.

What were one time you felt very dumb in retrospect?

Edited July 24, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Tim R]

@Carl-Richard 

47 minutes ago, Carl-Richard said:

What were one time you felt very dumb in retrospect?

One time? Ha?

Happens every now and then, sometimes more "severely" than other times, but I've learned to accept and love myself when it happens (which was not easy and certainly didn't happen over night). I know that I'm a fool and that I don't know infinitely more things than I think I do know, and when I make mistakes or say utterly stupid things, I know that it's okay. (I still of course try not to do it unnecessarily?)

I'm  therefore not ashamed to ask people to explain things to me, which to them might seem completely obvious - turns out that if you're being honest about this with yourself and the other person, they will (if they are not totally underdeveloped) feel this honesty and integrity and explain things to you or correct you without making you feel ashamed for not knowing or understanding. 

Whether this is about "not knowing things or not being as awake as you thought you'd be" makes no difference, you're a fool anyway. Understanding that will set you free. You're a fool anyway.

One of my absolutely favorite quotes in this regard is from Alan Watts:

"Freedom means the freedom to make mistakes — the freedom to be a damn fool."

[Gili Trawangan]

Yeah, it happens fairly often. And I'm guessing it will happen again in future, learning happens slower than we tend to think.

It's nothing to worry about, you're already Home.

[Leo Gura]

Yeah

The more wrong you are the worse it gets.

Ego hates to realize it's been horribly wrong. Which is what we see driving the entire Republican party right now.

[Loving Radiance]

Definitely experienced this. What kept me going was a sense that I will be better the longer I stay in the game.

Self-love is very important too, you are at this place in time because you have had limited experiences. You cannot be anywhere else. You are doing good right now even if it seems that doing that is not enough.

[thisintegrated]

Just take a broader view.

Sure, there are millions of people smarter and better than you in every way.  But there are also millions far dumber than you.

No matter how smart or dumb you are, it's meaningless.  The more you zoom out the more meaningless it gets.

[Carl-Richard]

25 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

No matter how smart or dumb you are, it's meaningless.

It is, but the experience of it is real, and my experience of it has changed over time. Just curious if other people have had the same experience (of essentially escaping the Dunning Kruger effect and feeling the ramifications of it first-hand).

[thisintegrated]

1 minute ago, Carl-Richard said:

It is, but the experience of it is real

Well, I'll leave you to it then.

[Eph75]

It's not so much escaping the kreuger-dunning effect as it is the movement along the competency increase and the shift in correlation to confidence, where confidence drops as you start realizing that you know less than you thought you did, and the more competent you get the more humble you are to the understanding that you know nothing, and confidence or lack of doubt in self once again shifts. 

If you explain this via kreuger-dunning effect or not doesn't matter, but it can give comfort and relievement of suffering in the process.

The gaining of understanding of that the only thing you can know is the not knowing and only having current beliefs, and that you are better off being proven having incorrect or incolmplete knowledge which in itself is the basis for accelerating learning and understanding, as well as the regaining of competency and relievement of that depressing state.

That depressing state being nothing but the bruising of the ego and deserve little attention not to get stuck for a more extended time than necessary. 

The newly found confidence is very different, flexible, humble and empowering compared to the previous confidence that was ridgid, dogmatic and demonstrative. 

Looking at this as the unfolding it is, you see the correlation between this and development as a phonomenon, and how that depressive state is what so many get stuck in for the rest of their lives, being consumed by the suffering and pain created by the realization that you essentially were fake, wearing a mask, putting on a façade, but bring unable to find the path forward out of despair. 

That realization hurts, but it's also the most important realization representing a monumental threshold in development and the moving past it, somewhat of a developmental quantum leap.

Needless to say, yes, have been through that valley of despair, and it really is a beautiful thing although hard to appreciate until you can look back at the beauty and complexity of it from a newly found, different, outlook point. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Eph75

[flowboy]

You guys seem to care a lot about knowing things for sure, being smart, your statements being true.

Why?

Isn't it enough that they were your best attempt at the moment, and true enough to be useful?

[Eph75]

@flowboy Haven't read all posts so you might be replying to something specific.

This is just the unfolding of human development. No one is immune to it. 

The paradox in it, is that the false sense, of perceived competency, that relatively speaking low competency, correlates with high confidence.

This is not about thinking you are smart, it is about the pain related to becoming aware that you indeed have had false and inflated confidence and how this relates to the gaining of understanding that what you thought you knew now has proven itself incorrect/incomplete.

And this realization becoming a readily apparent pattern in your experience, not just a single occurrence.

And becoming aware of this being a stage of development. 

This means that anyone not having passed that state will falsely think this is beneath them. 

So the question then becomes, how do you know that you're not in that flase confidence, low competency, high dellusion state of development?

Dogma is just that, the inability to accept that anything else could be true, and to such a deep and unconscious degree that you are not able to see it, as dogma as a phenomenon is outside of you awareness. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Eph75

[Eph75]

25 minutes ago, flowboy said:

You guys seem to care a lot about knowing things for sure, being smart, your statements being true.

Ironically, development is the opposite of this. 

[LastThursday]

21 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

You realize that you weren't as smart, developed or awake as you thought you were, and now when the false sense of security is ripped away from under your feet, you feel extremely inadequate.

It definitely hurts the ego to know that you're less smart than you thought you were. But it's ok. From a less ego-centred perspective all that's happening is that you lost in a contest of comparison. But smartness is not one dimensional, it's actually nonsensical to compare smartness between people; it's always apples and oranges. It may feel wrong, but even people who are smart in the same areas (say playing Chess), have different methods and intuitions, it's never a like-for-like comparison.

The other thing is that there's not a ceiling on smartness. In a sense you're always showing yourself how dumb you were, by ever increasing your smartness. So even if you're only competing with yourself, you'll always be losing (and winning). This is the natural order of things.

And, the ego being humbled is no bad thing. It gives you the space to appreciate how smart and wonderful other people are too.

Edited July 25, 2021 by LastThursday

[flowboy]

1 hour ago, Eph75 said:

So the question then becomes, how do you know that you're not in that flase confidence, low competency, high dellusion state of development?

I just assume that I am deluded and whatever I believe will be wrong in some way, and I'm cool with it.

It's still useful to me and others, until I discover the next level.

So what's the big deal?

I don't recall any sort of depression from this, sounds like an issue of taking the mind too seriously.

[Windappreciator]

@flowboy Consider that you think you're not taking the mind too seriously is a delusion. Consider that your approach to life has ignored opportunities to further well-being and growth, simply because you think you are unshaken by mistakes and stay in positivity.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Windappreciator

[flowboy]

16 minutes ago, Windappreciator said:

@flowboy Consider that you think you're not taking the mind too seriously is a delusion. Consider that your approach to life has ignored opportunities to further well-being and growth, simply because you think you are unshaken by mistakes and stay in positivity.

If you don't have trust that whatever is, is meant to be, then you can tie yourself into knots like this.

[Carl-Richard]

4 hours ago, Eph75 said:

It's not so much escaping the kreuger-dunning effect as it is the movement along the competency increase and the shift in correlation to confidence, where confidence drops as you start realizing that you know less than you thought you did, and the more competent you get the more humble you are to the understanding that you know nothing, and confidence or lack of doubt in self once again shifts. 

i.e. escaping the part of the curve that people most often refer to when mentioning Dunning-Kruger (the low competence, high confidence area). The later part of the curve is more often refered to as just expertise.

Edited July 25, 2021 by Carl-Richard

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

And, the ego being humbled is no bad thing. It gives you the space to appreciate how smart and wonderful other people are too.

That is the best part ?

[Eph75]

1 hour ago, flowboy said:

So what's the big deal?

There is no big deal, I don't think anyone implied there being a big deal?

Some experience this, others don't or don't notice/know it, or aren't aware of it being that, until much later.

It sure is a big deal to someone stuck in it. But of course, that person doesn't know it, so to whom would it a big deal.

If you're interested in human development, it's an interesting aspect.

Since it's a phase where it's hard to reach and affect, nudging the one stuck in rigid ways, I'd put it into the category of curiosity rather than very useful tools. 

The awareness to identify patterns, in people is useful though, if you're into helping people develop. There are a lot of people wanting to develop but counter-intuitively work against themselves in this stage. 

Edited July 25, 2021 by Eph75

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, LastThursday said:

And, the ego being humbled is no bad thing. It gives you the space to appreciate how smart and wonderful other people are too.

That is the best part ?