I feel very down after yesterday's night

[fopylo]

@Javfly33 Yeah man I'm noticing this problem is deeper than I expected, meaning I am recognizing that I have more and more shadows and parts of me that I repress without even knowing them, or maybe not repression, maybe they're hidden deep and rarely get the chance to get provoked

[fopylo]

@Eph75

On 7/26/2021 at 1:02 AM, Eph75 said:

With practice, especially through do-nothing-meditation, it becomes fairly easy to shift focus of mind into something of a "void state", where there are neither negative thoughts nor thought of having let something go, with the bare minimum of sensory input. Void.

I've been doing the Do Nothing technique for like a month, 30 minutes every morning. I feel like I'm becoming more at ease with my attention. Allowing my attention to go and wonder like a child following a raindrop with his eyes out of curiosity. Genuine attention. Although sometimes I can get stuck in my mind, and even though it's ok since it's part of the meditation (to accept the monkey mind) it makes me intentionally get into thought stories if I feel like trying to escape (not as serious as it sounds, but the accumulation of it makes it frustrating) and it somehow makes me not aware of the rest of reality, like I'm denying the physical room in which I'm in.

Do you have a recommendation for a different ritual? Maybe to do it longer? I would like to hear

[Eph75]

 

4 hours ago, fopylo said:

Do you have a recommendation for a different ritual? Maybe to do it longer? I would like to hear

I think it's mostly a matter of time, how long you have meditated and how much "thought space" you have worked up. 

I'd say as long as you get caught up and ride-along the train of thought you don't really facilitate space to happen, it needs to be more deliberate than that. It's useful in other ways, to gain awareness, investigate and feel into, but it does maintain the habit to have an engaged mind. 

Also meditation is like development, you have to stretch it to make progress, and when you do the reward is exponential.

Pressing outside the regular meditation length is hard, but after a couple of days with longer meditation, accepting it, it gets easy.

Pressing past one hour per day made hugh difference for me, I've peaked at two hours per day but have reverted back to one hour mostly for practical/logistic reasons. 

The largest challenge I had with getting into loger meditation was acceptance of pain in my back, numbing legs or feet, and slouching. Paradoxically that pain/struggle is created by the mind, and as long as we focus on those experiences, they grow, making the intention to sit longer much more difficult, sometimes impossible.

I tried different places to sit to relieve the pain, and bought a meditation cushion thinking that it was a physical phenomena but it was related to expectations around the wanting to get into deeper meditation states.

Today I have zero expectations on my meditation and fully trust in whatever happens, and I never experience physically unformfortable. 

Also I sit in the early morning when there is no distraction or anything I need to do immediately afterwards. Family still sleeping, plenty of time before work starts. 

Shorter meditation even though getting into the "groove" faster and faster still doesn't give me the same amazing results as with longer meditation practice.

Meditation can be done so much more often than just when sitting down to meditate, e.g. every day when you go to bed is a brilliant time to deliberately disengage the mind. Also contemplative walks in the stillness of nature is very helpful, for me especially my 1 h morning walk, backed up with 1 h meditation.

I strongly believe in that we should not engage in thoughts when we go to bed, or wake up in the night. And deliberately build up the capacity to not engage with thoughts at this time. This better allows our mind to process as needed as we sleep, without actively setting or choosing the theme from the waking awareness. 

Essentially when I lay me head down to sleep I deliberately switch focus toward the empty blackness without engaging thoughts into it, sort of just allowing that sensory of sight to happen and hearing sort of diminishes. Typically thought in this moment gets drawn towards acknowledging the wonder and beauty of the deep calmness, and i just catch that and switch back to an unfocues blackness of sight. After a short while that blackness goes deeper, into what I call "void", sort of lack of sight or layers of deeper blackness. 

I believe in finding whatever works best for you and not using models and methods too literally. Sometimes a mish-mash or own concoction is what has the best effects. 

Sorry, long rant.

Essentially push into longer sessions. Gently let thoughts go. Drop all expectations.

I'd top this with deliberately disengaging with non-constructive self-talk at all times during the day. It's just a nuisance and waste of energy. 

 

[Preety_India]

@Eph75

1 minute ago, Eph75 said:

 

I think it's mostly a matter of time, how long you have meditated and how much "thought space" you have worked up. 

I'd say as long as you get caught up and ride-along the train of thought you don't really facilitate space to happen, it needs to be more deliberate than that. It's useful in other ways, to gain awareness, investigate and feel into, but it does maintain the habit to have an engaged mind. 

Also meditation is like development, you have to stretch it to make progress, and when you do the reward is exponential.

Pressing outside the regular meditation length is hard, but after a couple of days with longer meditation, accepting it, it gets easy.

Pressing past one hour per day made hugh difference for me, I've peaked at two hours per day but have reverted back to one hour mostly for practical/logistic reasons. 

The largest challenge I had with getting into loger meditation was acceptance of pain in my back, numbing legs or feet, and slouching. Paradoxically that pain/struggle is created by the mind, and as long as we focus on those experiences, they grow, making the intention to sit longer much more difficult, sometimes impossible.

I tried different places to sit to relieve the pain, and bought a meditation cushion thinking that it was a physical phenomena but it was related to expectations around the wanting to get into deeper meditation states.

Today I have zero expectations on my meditation and fully trust in whatever happens, and I never experience physically unformfortable. 

Also I sit in the early morning when there is no distraction or anything I need to do immediately afterwards. Family still sleeping, plenty of time before work starts. 

Shorter meditation even though getting into the "groove" faster and faster still doesn't give me the same amazing results as with longer meditation practice.

Meditation can be done so much more often than just when sitting down to meditate, e.g. every day when you go to bed is a brilliant time to deliberately disengage the mind. Also contemplative walks in the stillness of nature is very helpful, for me especially my 1 h morning walk, backed up with 1 h meditation.

I strongly believe in that we should not engage in thoughts when we go to bed, or wake up in the night. And deliberately build up the capacity to not engage with thoughts at this time. This better allows our mind to process as needed as we sleep, without actively setting or choosing the theme from the waking awareness. 

Essentially when I lay me head down to sleep I deliberately switch focus toward the empty blackness without engaging thoughts into it, sort of just allowing that sensory of sight to happen and hearing sort of diminishes. Typically thought in this moment gets drawn towards acknowledging the wonder and beauty of the deep calmness, and i just catch that and switch back to an unfocues blackness of sight. After a short while that blackness goes deeper, into what I call "void", sort of lack of sight or layers of deeper blackness. 

I believe in finding whatever works best for you and not using models and methods too literally. Sometimes a mish-mash or own concoction is what has the best effects. 

Sorry, long rant.

Essentially push into longer sessions. Gently let thoughts go. Drop all expectations.

I'd top this with deliberately disengaging with non-constructive self-talk at all times during the day. It's just a nuisance and waste of energy. 

 

I love your rants. What sort of meditation techniques do you do ?

 

[Eph75]

28 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I love your rants. What sort of meditation techniques do you do ?

As I said, models and methods aren't truth, they are just means as pointers to create you own deeper experience. For me, the same goes for meditation. 

I at some point realized that what I was doing was most closely resembling Vipassana.

I've fluxed toward something that best is described as "do nothing", which is my default sitting down technique. Sometimes I start differently but always end up here regardless. 

This video puts it into words.

https://youtu.be/cZ6cdIaUZCA

Getting to that circuit that controls attention, that allows void to happen without control, where there is no repression of thought happening. 

With practice this circuit becomes accessible at any time, not just sitting meditating, but any moment, any time, throughout the day.

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Eph75

[fopylo]

@Eph75

16 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Pressing past one hour per day made hugh difference for me, I've peaked at two hours per day but have reverted back to one hour mostly for practical/logistic reasons. 

The one hour that you do (and the two hours that you did), was it an accumulation of different sessions into one hour or you sat 1 time a day one hour straight?

16 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Today I have zero expectations on my meditation and fully trust in whatever happens

What does that mean?

16 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Meditation can be done so much more often than just when sitting down to meditate, e.g. every day when you go to bed is a brilliant time to deliberately disengage the mind. Also contemplative walks in the stillness of nature is very helpful, for me especially my 1 h morning walk, backed up with 1 h meditation.

Disengaging the mind in what sense? You mean practicing mindfulness while laying on the bed at an odd position?

I take my dog out once or twice a day and it does give me time to think, but most of the time it isn't intentional thinking.

Most of the morning shifts for taking the dog out are on me, so I usually take my dog for like a 10-15 minute walk and then do the 30 minutes of Do Nothing, most of the times backed with 20 minutes of focus on breath.

16 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Essentially when I lay me head down to sleep I deliberately switch focus toward the empty blackness without engaging thoughts into it, sort of just allowing that sensory of sight to happen and hearing sort of diminishes. Typically thought in this moment gets drawn towards acknowledging the wonder and beauty of the deep calmness, and i just catch that and switch back to an unfocues blackness of sight. After a short while that blackness goes deeper, into what I call "void", sort of lack of sight or layers of deeper blackness.

But aren't thoughts cool after all? They are fantasy and you can come up with whatever you want that will make you feel comfortable in the moment.

16 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Sorry, long rant.

Your long rants are interesting and I never get bored.

16 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Essentially push into longer sessions.

I am thinking on maybe stopping with the 20 minutes focus on breath in the morning. I might be getting some focus but I feel very neurotic afterwards and hard to focus on the whole and be in flow with everything. I feel it's very antithetical to the Do Nothing technique, wherein the Do Nothing technique you develop a sensitivity to this circuit that controls your attention and allows void to happen without control, and so you don't repress thought - like you said. And the focusing on breath heightens this control freak, like I'm trying to limit reality. I'll try getting rid of this focusing and see what happens

Edited July 28, 2021 by fopylo

[Eph75]

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

The one hour that you do (and the two hours that you did), was it an accumulation of different sessions into one hour or you sat 1 time a day one hour straight?

One sitting, straight  sounds a lot but time literally disappeares once you push through the eye of the needle and adapt.

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

[Zero expectations] What does that mean?

If you place expectations on meditation, you inevitably are going to add thought wondering if you are doing it right, why this session isn't going as good as that other session, trying to re-achieve the deepest states you've reached in the past, or re-experience fruitions/sensations phenomena that are unusual and extremely pleasent. 

If you sit and try to meditate, you're not really meditating.

Which takes us to your next question. 

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

Disengaging the mind in what sense? You mean practicing mindfulness while laying on the bed at an odd position?

Practicing mindfulness is such a wide expression, it is simple being attentive about what you are doing with your mind. 

That ranges from observing thoughts, introspect physical and psychological sensations, and so on, literally just paying attention to what your mind is doing, so that you can shift your mind into thought progresses that are constructive / not destructive. 

Disengaging with thought is being deliberate about not thinking. Impossible? Essentially, yes, but what this intention results in is working up the ability to switch to complete silence in your mind. The only thoughts that tend to arise in this state are around just that, it being amazing/interesting/there-being-no-thought/oh-that-was-a-thought and so on. Then letting go of that, and intently returning back to no-thought. 

This is what I do, of course there are a million-and-one other practices you could do, it's just a matter of what works (produces positive/noticeable outcomes) for you. 

My morning meditation sessions is sitting in Burmese position. 

My going to bed position is, not surprisingly so, on my back or on my side. Doesn't matter, I sleep on my side so usually I meditate into sleep on my side. Doing it on my back creates a heavier "sink-through-mattress" kind of sensation, but I tend not to fall asleep in this position, which is my ultimate goal at this time. 

8 hours ago, fopylo said:

But aren't thoughts cool after all? They are fantasy and you can come up with whatever you want that will make you feel comfortable in the moment.

Oh-ho-ho yes well, that's the seductiveness of the mind right? It gets you mesmerized into getting lost into itself. Mental maturation. 

There are plenty of times to deliberately contemplate (maintaining constructive thought processes), why engage the mind with thought when we go to sleep?

The going-to-sleep thinking I used to get engaged with were, before I started meditation, e.g. procrastination, overly-analyzing something, solving imaginary problems in my mind, playing out alternative past and future scenarios and conversations, trying to preplan and control future events, and maybe worst of all, dreaming into states of being that I desired, such as success, wealth, building my dream-house or similar "wants and desires" which essentially takes you away from happiness, and increasing those craving of those desires in that process, taking me even further from true happiness, increasing the suffering. 

This was just me, but people in general aren't all that different 

Dedicating this time to the loving acceptance of what is, right now, the perfectness of being in this moment, without add or removing anything at all, except practicing the intent to disengagement with thoughts, really makes you fall in love with the present moment and it's unpretentious simplicity of Now.

Now doesn't need thought.

NOW that IS cool. 

Regaring meditation techniques, it's very individual. Try lots of ways and see what works best for you. There's no rule here and what works well for others might not work for you. And also, what is best needed now in order to build a strong practice might be something different than what will would best in a couple of years. 

The most important part is to build a practice that you accept sticking with for the rest of your life. Making it practical, not feeling forced, not having amped up expectations helps that process. 

There's no right or wrong, the only outcome is to not getting lost in thoughts, since that's essentially not meditating and instead allowing the monkey mind to to its usual business, just with eyes closed.

Techniques are rather to be approached with curiosity and played with. It's still the outcomes that matter, and if they are positive, it doesn't matter what the technique us called, or if it's your own nameless practice. 

It sounds like you have a good practice already 

Edited July 29, 2021 by Eph75

[fopylo]

9 hours ago, Eph75 said:

If you sit and try to meditate, you're not really meditating.

@Eph75  How does that make any sense lol. Do you mean to meditate for the sake of meditation rather than for the output? (Doing the practice > results?)

9 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Disengaging with thought is being deliberate about not thinking. Impossible? Essentially, yes, but what this intention results in is working up the ability to switch to complete silence in your mind. The only thoughts that tend to arise in this state are around just that, it being amazing/interesting/there-being-no-thought/oh-that-was-a-thought and so on. Then letting go of that, and intently returning back to no-thought.

The word "repression" came up to mind when reading this. Perhaps after all my mind isn't all powerful enough to let thoughts go without using some kind of control or monitoring.

9 hours ago, Eph75 said:

why engage the mind with thought when we go to sleep?

It's more like, the mind just wants to think and so I try not to suppress it.

9 hours ago, Eph75 said:

There's no right or wrong, the only outcome is to not getting lost in thoughts, since that's essentially not meditating and instead allowing the monkey mind to to its usual business, just with eyes closed.

This can happen sometimes after the "Do Nothing" meditation. The point of it is to accept your monkey mind and that includes accepting getting lost in thought stories

[Eph75]

@fopylo

Yeah that didn't come out quite right. It was more-so connected to trying too hard to "meditate", worrying about doing it "right" or achieving something particular actually raises thoughts in the process that prevent deeper meditative states 

Repression and suppression is definetly not the road to go. Letting go carry no meaning. If you're haunted by something powerful/painful letting go is hard, not causing suppressing/repressing in the process, as the thoughts are more-so intrusive for particular reasons. 

Those posts are very subjective, I've gotten past racing monkey mind, I have self-talk but it's conscious and entertaining or constructive in nature, and letting it go is at this point very easy and carry no meaning in itself. It's like turning off the ceiling light in the room when going to bed, means nothing special, and it gives deeper sleep, and that just makes sense. 

I used to have highly active and highly negative, self-destructive monkey mind, to such a degree that it felt like "it" was in 100% control over "me". Since becoming aware of this I've worked a lot on this, and the underlying causes. 

Anywho, side-tracked... 

I have to admit that I'm confused with the method names, hence my comment about mish-mash and actual method being more-so a result than a selected method, and my "do nothing" isn't the same as yours, which is more actual, and mine sort of not even as the YT video I posted in the sense that my thought space goes quiet fast when I drop engagement with active contemplation. Weaving the method together with the final comments in that video about it may result with silent mind puts the finger on my misrepresented view of the "do nothing" method. Of course this hasn't always been the case, it's a product of my years of meditating and my working through my "issues". Sorry for stirring up some confusion. 

I realize that my last posts might have come out as advice, which they're certainly not. I rarely share personal stuff, and this was just that and nothing more  

Edited July 30, 2021 by Eph75

[fopylo]

13 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Repression and suppression is definetly not the road to go. Letting go carry no meaning. If you're haunted by something powerful/painful letting go is hard, not causing suppressing/repressing in the process, as the thoughts are more-so intrusive for particular reasons.

@Eph75
So I was doing my morning "Do Nothing" meditation for 45 minutes and in the process I was at a dilemma: I was having thoughts but they were kind of bothering. So the dilemma was: "Should I keep going with the thought stories, let it be and not try to control my attention? (meaning, if my attention is drawn to thinking mode, should I go with it?) Or should I wake back up into reality and have my attention flow when I'm fully awake and not in my head?"

Sometimes I was going with it, accepting myself drowning in the thought stories, and sometimes I was deliberately pushing the thoughts away and trying to get into the zone of the "void" (the state where I connect to the origin of my attention, like the "free choice" state, without trying to control my thoughts. I might have gotten a bit neurotic trying to get into this state of void. It felt like I was trying to get myself into the state of surrendering, while at the same time trying to surrender to the effort I put into trying to surrender.

14 hours ago, Eph75 said:

Of course this hasn't always been the case, it's a product of my years of meditating and my working through my "issues".

How long have you been doing this work?

[Eph75]

Dropping being defined by methods for moment, there definetly is a time to feel into and investigate those thoughts. When that happens and what we call that matters less. 

Going along with thought stories, getting carried away with them is useful to raise awareness, and gain deeper understanding, but eventually there needs to be a time where also healing happens, where patterns are broken. 

I don't really have any advice, other than not forcing that "void" to happen, as you say, might be synonymous with suppressing something in the process.

It never was forced onto me, it just appeared as part of the process evolving, first in meditation after sitting closer to an hour, later as a deliberately induced state. When it first appeared, I was more-so pulled into it, almost falling into it, and as a relex/knee-jerk reaction was pulled right back out again.

1 hour ago, fopylo said:

How long have you been doing this work?

Essentially 7 years since I started some form of active work. But have become aware of my meditative-contemplative behavior that I've had ever since I was a child, doing deep contemplation, and developing a sensitivity towards emotional signals, something of a superpower. 

I wisely used this superpower up to my middle 30's to effectively shatter my self-esteem 

It's the last 6 years that has been deliberate about this stuff, tipping point was the suicide of my 14 year old niece and some other more-or-less coinciding events that just got too much to handle and short after I saw a therapist for the first time, to deal with emotional exhaustion. 

Actual sitting meditation though, I've just been doing since 2017.

I do think that time isn't as important as what that time entails. Amp up the suffering and you accelerate things, towards breaking free, or simply breaking down.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Eph75

[fopylo]

@Eph75

1 hour ago, Eph75 said:

When it first appeared, I was more-so pulled into it, almost falling into it, and as a relex/knee-jerk reaction was pulled right back out again.

Yeah this is pretty much what happens to me. I'm very good at catching myself getting lost, and as an instinct I tap out of it quickly (pushing it away quick) and sometimes I manage to catch and yet still let it be. Eventually the movement from thought to what's real around me is just something new catching my attention.

1 hour ago, Eph75 said:

I wisely used this superpower up to my middle 30's to effectively shatter my self-esteem 

Wait what? ? What do you mean? You confused me

1 hour ago, Eph75 said:

It's the last 6 years that has been deliberate about this stuff, tipping point was the suicide of my 14 year old niece and some other more-or-less coinciding events that just got too much to handle and short after I saw a therapist for the first time, to deal with emotional exhaustion. 

I'm really sorry to hear that.

1 hour ago, Eph75 said:

Amp up the suffering and you accelerate things, towards breaking free, or simply breaking down.

Man for some reason this is making me laugh a little ?
What do you mean "or simply breaking down"? ?
It's quite a big chance we're taking here, aren't we? Let's just gamble - we break free or we break down.

Ok sorry for this rant, it's not funny. So if you amp the suffering then I guess you'll get more serious about meditation and you can potentially purify yourself more. It's like adding a heavy wait to your gym exercise - you either hurt yourself or you become stronger. It's how you use this suffering, isn't it?

Honestly I haven't really felt suffering in a very long time. Maybe the last thing was my original topic for this thread (which isn't so huge compared to what I had to deal with before I even got on this forum, or just when I got here like half a year ago). I don't know if this is necessarily a good thing. I might be also trying to escape it. Thing is that I'm starting my camp in less than a month and I get really nervous each time they send a message in the group, reminding me of the fact that soon I'll live with those people 24/7 and come back home once in 2 weeks, for 6 months. I might really break down and I hope I'll be able to handle it. That's why I was getting kinda serious for doing meditation and consciousness work in this summer break.

[Eph75]

I feel like I'm raping your original topic, but it's your thread so it's up to you to say when we've gotten derailed 

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

Wait what? ? What do you mean? You confused me

So that could be seen as irony - or post realization phun. 

Either I was acting retarded and misinterpreted what being is about and bashed myself for no reason whatsoever - OR - I was unconsously and yet universally consciously bashing myself towards increasing my own suffering leading towards that breaking point, as a calling to waking up? You decide  it is irrelevant from my POV. 

3 hours ago, fopylo said:

I'm really sorry to hear that.

I'm not. Yes that sounds strange. What is, is. Regrets or wishing undoing is the fuel of suffering. She symbolizes my equilibrium, how can I wish undoing that. Yes, still sounds strange, I know. It wasn't a good experience, but in a sense it was the calling for me to get my shit in shape. It also got my sister's shit in shape. We both recognize the good outcome. Still an unfortunate death of a beautiful young girl. It was, period.

3 hours ago, fopylo said:

Man for some reason this is making me laugh a little ?
What do you mean "or simply breaking down"? ?

You know the saying "what does not kill us makes us stronger"? I'm sure you do. 

Suffering either breaks us and we're doomed a lifetime of suffering, no way back - Or - it is becomes the catalyst for development and growth, and at its "worst", the "best", awakening. 

3 hours ago, fopylo said:

It's quite a big chance we're taking here, aren't we? Let's just gamble - we break free or we break down.

Question is, in that gambling, is it really you rolling that dice? 

3 hours ago, fopylo said:

Ok sorry for this rant, it's not funny

In a way, yes, it really is "funny", in an inronic sense.

3 hours ago, fopylo said:

So if you amp the suffering then I guess you'll get more serious about meditation and you can potentially purify yourself more.

It REALLY comes downs to realizing that your current beliefs are false and to shift towards more "true" beliefs. 

What the excessive suffering does is shun, reject, expell, throw our your current set of beliefs, as that suffering has proven those beliefs "not true", from a subjective POV, which leads to the acceptance of adopting new, seemingly, "truer" believes. Who is better to prove ourselves wrong, then ourselves? 

That breaking down makes you more humble, humble toward your own dogma, towards your chosen current set of beliefs/paradigm, flexible towards multiple perspectives of others as you've just shifted perspective by own admittance, and so on. Most of all, it awakens a hunger of desire to further shift away from one's current beliefs, the increase of curiosity to find out where you've been wrong, where you've expressed dogma and so on, and so on. 

Tools are the means of this, meditation is a means to this. Meditation is something of a gimmick, and a tool as soon as you see the vast benefits of can bring to relieviating being-ness. 

Seeing an increased benefit from meditation is just a thing, something of a tool in that unfolding. One of many tools.

I'll stop ranting now. There's an endless flow of this crap from within. Needs to stop somewhere, closing the valve here 

 

[fopylo]

@Eph75

15 minutes ago, Eph75 said:

Question is, in that gambling, is it really you rolling that dice? 

Man... Oh shit. This is not good. You're literally taking a gamble of whether you get out of it or not. That's scary not gonna lie. I can meditate my way until I reach the Truth but if I can't handle the suffering then I'm good as gone. I really don't want to get to that, but at the same time I have a feeling I might get to a suicidal point with this work (even if now I'm all calm, actually still in the 'high' of the cycle of life). Leo said in the video about the dark side-effect of meditation that you will have suicidal thoughts, for just a normal person, not talking about someone with mental illnesses like anxiety and depression disorders.

[Eph75]

@fopylo

Although, doing the work needed, going deeper, is also what eventually gets you out. As long as there's this fundamental understanding that the work must goes on, and not being discouraged by the obstacles thrown onto your path. The risk is in getting lost, and giving up, before pushing through onto the other side. I speak hypothetically, since I didn't really get stuck, my experience progressively worsened as I freed myself from the limitations I was conscious of, until disowned and unconscious shadows remained, and to such a point that the solution presented itself, via desperate action from my part, and the right response from someone who did not know me. I do believe that happened by design, an unfolding of events in a certain way, and when the time is right for it. 

I've never experienced suicidal thoughts, although I have actively categorized suicide as not an option, and that thought certainly came from somewhere.

[fopylo]

@Eph75

Alright man, back to the main topic - thanks for providing the value. I'll make sure to go over it again just before I leave to the next party/meeting I'll have

[Eph75]

??