the four noble truths in Buddhism

[Someone here]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Four_Noble_Truths

What are your thoughts on the four noble truths in Buddhism?

Are they accurate or somewhat reductionistic and simplistic? 

[Consilience]

The deeper Ive gone in meditation, the more Ive come to appreciate them. Their depth and significance are very subtle. 

[Tim R]

I think they are very sophisticated and hit the nail on the head. Don't forget that Buddhism is primarily interested in reducing suffering, not describing reality. Of course, in order to reduce suffering, you will have to understand reality so as to navigate towards that first goal successfully. And I think the four noble truths do a pretty good job at that, as they lay the ground for enlightenment work in Buddhism. 

[Nahm]

Accuracy is reduction & simplicity. The four noble truths & the eightfold path point, and parable. 

[Someone here]

Isn't it oversimplification and black and white to say that all of life is suffering and that desire is the root of suffering? Isn't that a bit general and naive assumptions? 

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Isn't it oversimplification and black and white to say that all of life is suffering and that desire is the root of suffering? Isn't that a bit general and naive assumptions? 

Desire is not the root of all suffering, that’s not really an accurate representation of the 2nd noble truth, at least as far as I understand them. Tanha is the root, which is more accurately defined as “craving” rather than “desire.” Desire can exist without craving. The root of craving could be traced back to attachment. 

And it’s not necessarily “all life” is suffering. More so that life necessarily involves suffering. But see the extent to which suffering pervades life is vastly underestimated and misunderstood, so even this truth has many, MANY, layers of increasing depth and nuance. 

From an intellectual pov, yes all of this seems quite simplistic and black and white. Not very useful or important. 

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Someone here said:

Isn't it oversimplification and black and white to say that all of life is suffering and that desire is the root of suffering? Isn't that a bit general and naive assumptions? 

Agree. And a very negative vision of life, like a penance to be avoided. it is a religion that has the ultimate goal of ceasing to be reborn, that says it all

[Consilience]

11 minutes ago, Breakingthewall said:

Agree. And a very negative vision of life, like a penance to be avoided. it is a religion that has the ultimate goal of ceasing to be reborn, that says it all

This is such a misunderstanding... Lol. You’d probably learn a lot opening yourself up to the teachings of the Buddha. It’s actually a ridiculously pragmatic vision of life that involves an insane level of consciousness when one follows the 8 fold path, or at least the meditation part. Usually people don’t understand why these teachings are so powerful until they deeply suffer; we are all very fortunate to live in a time of so much comfort and ease - it gives a false perception of just how bad it can really get and the extend to which our lives and happiness are built on a fragile house of cards. 

The cessation of rebirth would be the equivalent of completely realizing death and birth are imaginary, using Leo language. 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Consilience

[Tim R]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

Isn't it oversimplification and black and white to say that all of life is suffering and that desire is the root of suffering? Isn't that a bit general and naive assumptions? 

You need to be a bit more sophisticated here. The Buddha didn't pull this sh*t out of his ass over night, you can bet that a lot of careful thought went into these four statements. There is nothing negative about these statements, they're just observations packed into easily understood and memorized statements. 

What is meant by saying that "life is suffering" is this: "dukkha" is the opposite of "sukha", which means something like "pleasure". "Dukkha" is about the frustration of everyday life which is the result of - and then comes this long list of why you're frustrated. Because you don't understand that Sukha implies Dukkha. Because you're setting yourself impossible goals (like getting rid of Dukkha and keeping Sukha). Because you don't understand that your wanting and craving is the same as feeling that there is something missing in life (Dukkha). And on and on and on.... And then the Buddha gives solutions to these problems. Which also need to be packed into shirt sentences because this was the only way of teaching them to large audiences. 

@Someone here If you actually want to know more about Buddhism I suggest you go study it yourself, there's a lot to learn and much of it is incredibly valuable. 

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

This is such a misunderstanding... Lol. You’d probably learn a lot opening yourself up to the teachings of the Buddha

agree in my ignorance about Buddhism. rather superficial knowledge, but this orientation towards the cessation of the cycle seems evident to me. And about the suffering...well, as @Tim R said , let's study a bit

[ZzzleepingBear]

23 minutes ago, Tim R said:

You need to be a bit more sophisticated here. The Buddha didn't pull this sh*t out of his ass over night, you can bet that a lot of careful thought went into these four statements. There is nothing negative about these statements, they're just observations packed into easily understood and memorized statements. 

What is meant by saying that "life is suffering" is this: "dukkha" is the opposite of "sukha", which means something like "pleasure". "Dukkha" is about the frustration of everyday life which is the result of - and then comes this long list of why you're frustrated. Because you don't understand that Sukha implies Dukkha. Because you're setting yourself impossible goals (like getting rid of Dukkha and keeping Sukha). Because you don't understand that your wanting and craving is the same as feeling that there is something missing in life (Dukkha). And on and on and on.... And then the Buddha gives solutions to these problems. Which also need to be packed into shirt sentences because this was the only way of teaching them to large audiences. 

@Someone here If you actually want to know more about Buddhism I suggest you go study it yourself, there's a lot to learn and much of it is incredibly valuable. 

This is a nice little snippet of buddhism, thank you for that.

And here goes the t-shirt version from what I just learned.

"Don't be a "Sukha"

Remember the "Dukkha"!

[Carl-Richard]

8 hours ago, Someone here said:

What are your thoughts on the four noble truths in Buddhism?

Brilliant.

[Carl-Richard]

5 hours ago, Someone here said:

Isn't it oversimplification and black and white to say that all of life is suffering and that desire is the root of suffering? Isn't that a bit general and naive assumptions? 

If you understand what is meant by suffering and what is meant by desire, it makes perfect sense. My first ever trip was a lesson in The Four Noble truths.

I'll try to rephrase it for you:

1. You're never satisfied.

2. You always try to gain satisfaction.

3. Satisfaction is attained by letting go of the need to gain satisfaction.

4. Spirituality is the path to letting go of the need to gain satisfaction.

[VeganAwake]

Accurate compared to what?

There is no real goal or end result that needs to be attained and in that sense accurate or inaccurate are non-applicable.

All the different affiliations, religions, groups, and sects, are just different pieces of everything but believing their piece is the absolute truth.

Like the Blind Men elephant parable:

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by VeganAwake

[Someone here]

12 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

If you understand what is meant by suffering and what is meant by desire, it makes perfect sense. My first ever trip was a lesson in The Four Noble truths.

I'll try to rephrase it for you:

1. You're never satisfied.

2. You always try to gain satisfaction.

3. Satisfaction is attained by letting go of the need to gain satisfaction.

4. Spirituality is the path to letting go of the need to gain satisfaction.

That's a nice rephrase. So does it mean that desire is evil and one should not pursue desires? 

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Someone here said:

That's a nice rephrase. So does it mean that desire is evil and one should not pursue desires? 

It means that if you want to end dissatisfaction, you should abolish desires

[Mason Riggle]

Desire/Suffering are two sides of the same coin.. wanting/not wanting.  

What you 'desire' is to 'not suffer'.  Suffering is 'that which we do not desire'. 

You would not desire food, if you did not suffer hunger pain. 

Desire/Suffering is necessary, because without it, the Universe would be static and unchanging.  If a ball that was 'up' did not 'desire' to be down, balls would not fall when dropped.  

"There will always be suffering. But we must not suffer over the suffering." - Alan Watts

[snowyowl]

The Noble Truths are simplistic because they're a headline or shorthand summary of the teaching for easy memorisation. I prefer to read them in context with other early Buddhist "lists" such as the three fires (greed, hatred, delusion); and  the three signs of being (impermanence, non-self, suffering). 

My take on it is not that all life is suffering, but a deluded life is, a life based on attachment to impermanent things, a self-centered life. A life full of desires and aversions (= greed and hatred)  by an illusory separate self. It also has a lot of pleasure in it too of course, that's what keeps me going back for more lol ! 

Edited July 22, 2021 by snowyowl

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Carl-Richard said:

It means that if you want to end dissatisfaction, you should abolish desires

So there is a relationship between desire and dissatisfaction (evil)?.. As desire is what causes it. 

[Someone here]

3 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

Desire/Suffering are two sides of the same coin.. wanting/not wanting.  

What you 'desire' is to 'not suffer'.  Suffering is 'that which we do not desire'. 

You would not desire food, if you did not suffer hunger pain. 

Desire/Suffering is necessary, because without it, the Universe would be static and unchanging.  If a ball that was 'up' did not 'desire' to be down, balls would not fall when dropped.  

"There will always be suffering. But we must not suffer over the suffering." - Alan Watts

If so then why they teach that you end suffering by ending your desire?