Needy, Nice, Desperate, Manipulative and Detached Men. Nice men aren't really nice

[Preety_India]

I'm trying to understand male psyche with regard to dating and it's kinda hard to get around this.

So I grouped different male behaviours into specific boxes or categories to get a better understanding of the male approach.

1. Needy guys 

These men aren't looking to really fulfill a woman. They want a woman not to love her but to fulfill something they need to fill in. As a result they are more likely to cheat, it doesn't matter who fulfills their needs, as long as they get what they want, it's all they're looking for. 

Not that neediness is wrong, but a healthy dose of neediness sustains a relationship whereas neediness that is only cheeky, cheap and superficial destroys a relationship.

Now the neediness need to be analysed to see what sort of neediness exists.

For example neediness for a person is a sense of wanting and belongingness that becomes a glue that holds the relationship together whereas neediness that only concerns the needs regardless of who is fulfilling it, which means it doesn't matter whoever fulfills it is merely an illusion or it leads to transactional and contractual relationship that easily end when these needs are no longer necessary or someone else fulfills them. This once again dissolves the relationship. 

Needy men are simply looking for gratification and the woman wrongly or falsely interprets this as love. Only to realise that she will be dumped as soon as there's someone else to fill her shoes. 

This means needy guys are not a recipe for a loving lasting relationship..

 

 

 

2. Nice guys 

Nice guys finish last, in a way they should. It hurts nice guys but there are women who complain about nice men because nice men aren't exactly nice.

Wakey wakey ! Fakey Fakey ! 

Behind the facade of "Nice-ness," is a guy simply looking to get into the woman's pants. He does all the nice things, acts gentle and kind and patient but for some weird reason it appears too nice to be true, kinda fake. This fake-ness is detected when you give the nice guy some cold shoulder and immediately his anger/resentment becomes visible. His Nice-ness suddenly disappears because it was all  an act and his real self emerges from this superficial facade of nice act. This self is in complete contrast with previous "nice" self that he was so proud of. Not only is this completely contrasting, it can appear downright creepy.

How many women talk about nice guys turning out creepy in the end ? 

There are memes that describe the "nice guy" as the "creepy nice guy." Or Mr Creepy. Because he is so nice that it can't be true or it seems there is a plan behind all that. And that plan seems deceptive.

Often times nice guys turn out to be unsafe and worse than your regular "around the street corner" asshole punk guys. These guys are openly arrogant yet they have an honest side, they're hard to deal with but they don't like to hide/lead double lives. They are self assured. But it's not like every asshole comes with a golden heart. They are quite rare. Most asshole types only end up hurting women. 

 

 

 

 

3. Desperate guys

Desperate guys are always avoided by most women. Because they are not giving out red flags, they are giving out  huge alarm bells. Desperate men scream "danger" in a woman's mind. They can be stalkerish, overly attached, zero sense of boundaries, sociopathic, blackmailing, threatening and obsessive, possessive, compulsive.

Desperate men are generally avoided for the fear factor and a woman always feels like she is taking a huge risk in dating such men..

 

 

4. Manipulative guys 

Manipulative guys can be handsome, charming, sweet. The difference between these and the nice guys is that they won't appear creepy. They just know how to play the rules. They know what a woman wants to hear, they know what can get a woman sexually excited and they play their moves very carefully so as to not appear needy or desperate. However all of this is only to get a woman, not to love her. They use the same tricks with other women and win themselves a harem. Playboys and Casanovas are a good example. Charming and sweet like a snake only to sting in the end like a Scorpio. These men are ultimate Heartbreakers because they know how to win a woman's affection only to break her heart in the end. They are able to attract women because they can easily hide and very cleverly disguise all red flags that the men described above can't. Most of these men are covert Narcissists. And they put on the facade of the ultimate good guy that women fall for. One way of detecting these behaviours is to see the wide gap between actions and words. Their Actions never line up with their gregarious words. These men also love to boast too much. A lot of Alpha Chads belong to this category, am I right ?? 

 

 

5. Detached guys

Last in my box are detached men. I'm not talking about overly detached guys because that would mean lack of interest. But a moderately detached guy is a good sign of high committment and low manipulation. He is healthy,not needy, not desperate, not "fakey nicey" and not manipulative. 

He is self assured and secured and doesn't make the woman the pedestal of his life. He doesn't give the Princess/Queen treatment yet he is responsible and loving. He wants his intentions clear and known and doesn't leave room for doubt. He is not being selfish so he is more likely to commit to his words. He is not fake complimenting to impress but genuinely interested in growing together and leading the woman to a commited  fulfilling relationship.

 

 

This much I could write. Let me know your thoughts/opinions.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Preety_India

[Preety_India]

I really want Leo to contribute to this thread and broaden my understanding of all this. It can be pretty confusing ?

 

[RendHeaven]

Your categories are self-serving. No man actually sees himself as being contained in the boxes you've provided.

Most of us are just regular-ass dudes who mistakenly believe that being the object of female sexual desire will heal our various shadows and traumas.

This mistaken belief may manifest in what appears to you to be different categories of personalities, but fundamentally there's no difference. 

[Preety_India]

32 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Your categories are self-serving. No man actually sees himself as being contained in the boxes you've provided.

Most of us are just regular-ass dudes who mistakenly believe that being the object of female sexual desire will heal our various shadows and traumas.

This mistaken belief may manifest in what appears to you to be different categories of personalities, but fundamentally there's no difference. 

So a woman's experience of a man is self serving?

 

[Gesundheit2]

That's why @Zeroguy is a smart guy.

[Preety_India]

49 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

That's why @Zeroguy is a smart guy.

Why is he relevant here ?

 

 

[Gesundheit2]

Just now, Preety_India said:

Why is he relevant here ?

I was anticipating he would say something like that, kind of a tongue in cheek joking with both of you.

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Gesundheit2 said:

I was anticipating he would say something like that, kind of a tongue in cheek joking with both of you.

Mah God please spare me ?

 

[Gesundheit2]

Just now, Preety_India said:

Mah God please spare me ?

You almost spelled my name there 

[Leo Gura]

Well....

The needy thing is very tricky, because you have to understand that any guy who gets into a relationship with you is doing so to fulfill certain needs of his, be that sex or whatever else. So it's mostly just a question of degree of neediness.

The whole point of a relationship is to use the other person to fulfill your own selfish needs. Otherwise you would not relate at all.

Both partners are doing that, so then it becomes a sort of dance/game/negotiation. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it does not.

[SamC]

4 hours ago, Preety_India said:

So a woman's experience of a man is self serving?

 

@Preety_India Guys are not needy, creepy, desperate, manipulative or nice. Guys are guys.

This is kinda similar to putting it as 

1: Small tits girls

2: small ass girls

3: ugly girls

4: hot girls.

Your description is not about understanding guys, it's about your understanding of guys as a woman from your surviving " what you deem as attractive and safe perspective". Men objectifie woman and woman objectifie men but in a different way.

If I am honest and tell you that I have been perceived both as creepy, desperate, manipulative and nice but does that mean Imma bad person that deserves to put in a box? No.. I'm just a guy who happens to show those behaviours.

I think that many men feel that they get judged by woman for being a nice guy or whatever, and sure they are not clear with their intention, but it's not like they * the nice guys* are bad or creepy guys objectively.

They are just normal guys who want love from girls and get rejected and then get put into a box as being " something" becuase they are perceived as unsafe/ unattractive. 

Another thing that adds to this dilemma is that woman often say " I want a nice guy" but then sleep with the opposite jerk and meanwhile tell us that we shouldn't be nice... LIke , many men feel tereible missunderstood Preety. Woman say they want us to listen to them but the truth is that we struggle to do so if we see you saying one thing and then doing the opposite.

 -  " be feminine and caring, not like a man -  don't be a nice guy, I am not attracted to you. Go away!

Like what should we be and do? It feels like we're either narcccistic fuckboy pigs or narcissist nice guy feminine pigs. It feels like a lose lose.

Most "Nice guys, desperate guys and needy guys" can be nice - but what they all miss is that they don't ask for what they want.. not because they are mean.. but because they are terrified to do so.

@Preety_India

Edited July 21, 2021 by SamC

[gettoefl]

the basic dichotomy between men and women is that women are attractors and men are extractors, women the honey men the bee

until this is deeply absorbed and a relationship entered into with this understanding explicit, all -ships will sink

she look good, he behave good

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, SamC said:

@Preety_India Guys are not needy, creepy, desperate, manipulative or nice. Guys are guys.

This is kinda similar to putting it as 

1: Small tits girls

2: small ass girls

3: ugly girls

4: hot girls.

The categorisation is not on the basis of appearance. It's on the basis of behaviour.

Go on YouTube and the whole dating community talks about these. 

Obviously because it matters to women. They have to be careful about who they are dating 

 

1 minute ago, SamC said:

Your description is not about understanding guys, it's about your understanding of guys as a woman from your surviving " what you deem as attractive and safe perspective".

Nothing wrong with women looking for making safe choices.

A woman doesn't want to end up with an axe murderer. 

 

1 minute ago, SamC said:

 

Men objectifie woman and woman objectifie men but in a different way.

This is not objectification but how women experience different kinds of behaviours from men.

These terms aren't invented by me.

The whole world talks about these terms.

You mean to say such behaviours don't exist ?

 

1 minute ago, SamC said:

If I am honest and tell you that I have been perceived both as creepy, desperate, manipulative and nice but does that mean Imma bad person that deserves to put in a box? No.. I'm just a guy who happens to show those behaviours.

It's not about being good or bad.

Don't take it in a judgemental way. 

Learning these things is quite informative. If you think you exhibit any of these behaviours, instead of using the cop out defense and lashing out, maybe use this to outgrow such behaviours.

You don't become bad or good. You simply avoid behaviours that are hurtful to others..

1 minute ago, SamC said:

I think that many men feel that they get judged by woman for being a nice guy or whatever, and sure they are not clear with their intention, but it's not like they * the nice guys* are bad or creepy guys objectively.

I think not being honest is a problem. It hurts women when they realise the guy isn't clear with his intentions 

Creepy men tend to exploit women..women don't want to be exploited just like you don't want to be judged 

1 minute ago, SamC said:

They are just normal guys who want love from girls and get rejected and then get put into a box as being " something" becuase they are perceived as unsafe/ unattractive. 

Not necessary. These are behaviours that are hurtful. Nothing normal in that. 

Getting love from someone is one thing. But abusing someone for love is another. 

You can practice wanting love in healthy ways and stop unhealthy ways. Maybe instead of feeling triggered see how you can improve your ways that won't hurt the woman

1 minute ago, SamC said:

Another thing that adds to this dilemma is that woman often say " I want a nice guy" but then sleep with the opposite jerk and meanwhile tell us that we shouldn't be nice... LIke , many men feel tereible missunderstood Preety.

I acknowledge this problem.. however you never know if the guy is a real jerk or not. Trust me most women leave abusive guys .

Nobody needs an abuser. Those women might have self esteem issues and you shouldn't compromise your integrity for them.

1 minute ago, SamC said:

Woman say they want us to listen to them but the truth is that we struggle to do so if we see you saying one thing and then doing the opposite.

 -  " be feminine and caring, not like a man -  don't be a nice guy, I am not attracted to you. Go away

Women want a balance of caring and strength. Not much to ask for honestly.

1 minute ago, SamC said:

 

Like what should we be and do? It feels like we're either narcccistic fuckboy pigs or narcissist nice guy feminine pigs. It feels like a lose lose.

Most "Nice guys, desperate guys and needy guys" can be nice - but what they all miss is that they don't ask for what they want.. not because they are mean.. but because they are terrified to do so.

@Preety_India

I get it.. You be authentic. A relationship won through inauthenticity is always going to be a failure

 

[StarStruck]

23 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well....

The needy thing is very tricky, because you have to understand that any guy who gets into a relationship with you is doing so to fulfill certain needs of his, be that sex or whatever else. So it's mostly just a question of degree of neediness.

The whole point of a relationship is to use the other person to fulfill your own selfish needs. Otherwise you would not relate at all.

Both partners are doing that, so then it becomes a sort of dance/game/negotiation. Sometimes it works out, sometimes it does not.

Everybody is trying to get the best deal. As a guy, it is important not to seem desperate in this negotiation. 

A good negotiation is not only about the goods being transfered but also about customer service. 

As a guy it is basically necessary to play that slick salesman until you get the (her) deal. 

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, StarStruck said:

Everybody is trying to get the best deal. As a guy, it is important not to seem desperate in this negotiation. 

A good negotiation is not only about the goods being transfered but also about customer service. 

As a guy it is basically necessary to play that slick salesman until you get the (her) deal. 

What you're describing is like playing with knives 

When you play with knives you end up cutting your own fingers 

 

[Preety_India]

5 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

 

As a guy it is basically necessary to play that slick salesman until you get the (her) deal. 

You don't understand this BIG BIG TRUTH that you're looking for respect and value 

But you will get respect only from respectful people.

 

[Gesundheit2]

@Preety_India The nice guy description doesn't make sense. You said that nice guys are unattractive because they're fake. But that's not quite the case. In most cases, nice guy behaviors are a genuine expression of pure neediness, scarcity, insecurity, general undesirability, etc...

At the same time, any man who is interested in you wants to get into your pants one way or another, but no man can say that explicitly to you because women flip out because they don't want to be viewed as sluts. But you're okay with men getting sex from you in other fake ways. The only cover up that you don't like is the nice guy.

In reality, you don't like nice guys because they're overly nice it's similar to overselling a product. Nobody wants to buy a product that is not popular. So you unconsciously get repelled and then rationalize it away with fakery in order to turn a blind eye on your selfishness.

..

Other than that,

Needy guys are immature kids, and you don't want to be dating kids.

Bad boys, on the other hand, are kids with a mustache 

I know you can't resist the temptation of the mighty mustache 

[Preety_India]

21 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

@Preety_India The nice guy description doesn't make sense. You said that nice guys are unattractive because they're fake. But that's not quite the case. In most cases, nice guy behaviors are a genuine expression of pure neediness, scarcity, insecurity, general undesirability, etc...

This I won't describe as a nice guy. This is a description of a needy guy according to me 

Nice guys are those who put on a front 

Maybe "passive" is the word you are looking for 

Quote

At the same time, any man who is interested in you wants to get into your pants one way or another,

This is so wrong. Lots of genuine men who want to be with a woman not for sex but for a genuine relationship..

You make it sound like men are hungry wolves. That's not true 

I won't call them nice men. Because nice men is a misnomer. I'll call them authentic guys. The last category.

 

Quote

 

but no man can say that explicitly to you because women flip out because they don't want to be viewed as sluts. But you're okay with men getting sex from you in other fake ways. The only cover up that you don't like is the nice guy.

No woman (generally most women aren't) is okay with a man who wants sex with her period. Women want intimacy and genuine relationships. 

Most women on this forum keep repeatedly saying the same thing. 

Female sexuality is not how men want it to be.

Women want sex only as a part of intimacy. They want the whole experience not half baked love 

They don't want to feel used for sex. They want genuine connection without which they feel deprived 

Women aren't blow up dolls.

Quote

In reality, you don't like nice guys because they're overly nice it's similar to overselling a product. Nobody wants to buy a product that is not popular. So you unconsciously get repelled and then rationalize it away with fakery in order to turn a blind eye on your selfishness.

The reason women don't like nice guys is already stated above. Nice guys are often fake.

If you're referring to "passive guys" then those guys are rejected because they could be too Feminine. A woman wants polarity. She wants a man who is strong, not ruthless, just strong, meaning assertive. A passive man can signal weakness but this is not good for her because he can't be protective. A woman feels good with a protective man because that's how they are wired, just like men love caring woman.

You're conflating passive guys and nice guys 

Nice guys are fake whereas passive guys are weak and timid. 

Women can't like timid men just like men can't like a woman who is uncaring and ruthless.

There's a basic magnetism in a male female polarity, this is nature given

(By strong men I mean men who are independent and self reliant, not assholes or ruthless guys ) 

Quote

..

Other than that,

Needy guys are immature kids, and you don't want to be dating kids.

 

Needy guys are insecure and use women to fill those insecurities.

In the end the woman realises that the man was only interested in her to the extent of his needs. When he is bored of her and he doesn't need her anymore, he dumps her conveniently.

One of the reasons why needy guys get rejected because women have experienced their behaviour in past relationships..

Quote

Bad boys, on the other hand, are kids with a mustache 

I know you can't resist the temptation of the mighty mustache 

Nah. I am looking for the last category of men..the detached authentic simple guy who doesn't want to manipulate but wants a honest relationship.

Women fantasize bad men sometimes because they believe the bad boy is being authentic. Yet that is only a farce fed by movies like Emerald said to me once. It's a thing sold to women..

However as women evolve Emotionally they outgrow this phase and no longer like such men. 

It's called developing emotional maturity which needs time and sometimes experience to know what suits a woman's feminine side.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Preety_India

[Gesundheit2]

8 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Lots of genuine men who want to be with a woman not for sex but for a genuine relationship..

Hahahahahaha I'm speechless.

Prove it. Try and withhold sex from your man and see how long he's going to last.

[Preety_India]

7 minutes ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Hahahahahaha I'm speechless.

Prove it. Try and withhold sex from your man and see how long he's going to last.

Why will a woman withhold sex from a man? 

Sex is a part of a relationship. It's not the entire relationship.

 If  a man only wants sex with a woman, but doesn't want to fulfill her emotionally, then he is depriving her.

Of course sex is going to be a part of a relationship because she has sexual needs as well..but she doesn't want a man who is only with her for sex(only)

In essence, a woman is looking for value in a relationship and men who value women also look for value in relationships. They aren't hunting women just for sex.

If you truly valued women, you would value women for much more than just sex.

 

Edited July 21, 2021 by Preety_India