Self image vs dissolving the self

[fopylo]

I am meditating and doing this consciousness work in order to unbind myself from the ego and in order to be free and experience more of reality.

Leo has a video about how building a self image is key to success, but at the same time I don't understand because like building a self image means strengthening your false self and falling deeper into delusion.

There's also this famous book called Psycho Cybernetics which I thought about reading long ago but I haven't because after reading The Power Of Now and watching Leo's videos and meditating, it seems like building a self image will slow the process of dissolving the self.

So basically I'm looking for some guidance to reconcile the two. And also, should I even care about building a self image or am I better trying to dissolve the image?

[Byun Sean]

You need to build a strong ego before you can transcend it.

If you have a weak ego its gonna be way harder to transcend.

 

Transcending the ego does not mean you literally forget who you are as a finite human. 

You still retain that awareness but you become aware of your true identity beyond that. Transcend and include. Not transcend and forget.

 

So by all means, build a strong self image that serves you. It cannot hurt your spiritual process. If anything it will help you a lot because 

now you are consciously manipulating and creating your self image rather than doing it unconsciously.

[WelcometoReality]

@fopylo By dissolving the negative emotions you are also dissolving any negative self image you might have and a natural side effect will be that a positive self image will take it's place. That can later be dissolved if you continue with the work.

[fopylo]

On 7/21/2021 at 4:01 AM, Byun Sean said:

You still retain that awareness but you become aware of your true identity beyond that. Transcend and include. Not transcend and forget.

 

So by all means, build a strong self image that serves you. It cannot hurt your spiritual process. If anything it will help you a lot because 

now you are consciously manipulating and creating your self image rather than doing it unconsciously.

This is very counter-intuitive to what I know about self improvement. The reason I stopped all this identification with a self image, affirmations, visualizations and all of that is precisely because I've realized its limits, not that I have really ever seriously took time to build a self image. But I don't want to be attached to a persona. If I'm attached to a certain persona then it will actually limit me and I will resist anything that could potentially harm this image.

@WelcometoReality

So you're basically saying those meditation practices are indeed helping in dissolving negative images that I have about myself.

Since it will help dissolve the 'negative part' of the collective image of myself, I'll be left with the 'positive part'. And that will also be dissolved if I continue the work.

So it's like:

General image I have of myself (attachment to my mind and have limitations) --> Dissolvement of the 'not feeling good' images so that I'm left with better feeling images of myself (with still some attachments and limitations) --> Dissolving also that and becoming nothing?

So then building a self image can co-work with dissolving the self? meditation will dissolve the negative, and consciously creating a self image will enhance the positive, or so it seems.

But it still seems that the self image can make you somewhat neurotic. Now I want to be free from an attachment to an image.

[Leo Gura]

Obviously pursuing success will interfere with deconstructing reality.

Which is why monks don't pursue success.

Figure out what you want to do in which order.

Success usually requires A LOT of manipulation and illusion.

The pursuit of truth vs the pursuit of success are very different things.

[lmfao]

@Leo Gura Damn son. But probs important advice for me to hear tbh. 

I guess you can still maintain casual practice even if you're chasing success though. Who knows 

Edited July 22, 2021 by lmfao

[fopylo]

@Leo Gura

Oh so they actually counter each other. Fuck. I was starting to believe the can work together.

I want to become very free from my mind and very conscious so that I'm limitless and can be authentic and develop emotional mastery.

But Leo, there was a time that you chased success. If you didn't chase success you probably wouldn't have been where you're now, am I right?

I don't think I can really take on pursuing success after hearing and experiencing the things I can get from those spiritual practices

[Leo Gura]

20 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Leo Gura

Oh so they actually counter each other. Fuck. I was starting to believe the can work together.

They are not absolutely mutually exclusive. But there is definitely some serious trade-offs.

Which is why the most successful people in the world tend to be spiritually clueless.

Quote

But Leo, there was a time that you chased success. If you didn't chase success you probably wouldn't have been where you're now, am I right?

Right

I am not saying success is not important in the relative domain. For me it was and still is important.

And when I talk about success I don't just mean something as shallow as chasing money. I have never chased money. For me success is about artistic work, life purpose, impacting mankind, mastering certain skills, and building a foundation for my life. This is important.

Creativity is core to my life and it conflicts enormously with awakening.

Quote

I don't think I can really take on pursuing success after hearing and experiencing the things I can get from those spiritual practices

Of course it gets harder to chase illusions once you know too much.

[lmfao]

@fopylo It's fine bro, maybe we can make meditation and success work...You become what's called a "zen devil" 

Jokes aside, idk either
The way I see it, life is life and there's no imperative/decree to either chase success/creativity or awakening. I was having this slightly bleak thought of mine after I finished meditating. [What was/is going on was just me feeling uncomfortable with "nihilism" probs].

In this regard I wouldn't be surprised or judge you Leo if you decided to turn your back on awakening shit to pursue creativity, because it's all equal. Equal, even if I stop ascribing negative valence to that statement and make it positive. 

Edited July 22, 2021 by lmfao

[Leo Gura]

Both can and should be done, it's mostly a matter of deciding which order to do them in.

Life is long, you got plenty of time to do more than one thing.

[fopylo]

@Leo Gura

It's just that I don't know which to choose because
1) it seems more natural to start with success and then evolve into spiritual pursuits and -
2) spirituality seems to give the best fruits of life and I'm kinda focused on it now.

Thing is that meditation practices are helping me function like a normal human being, which helped me in social interactions. So I guess they can build off of each other, probably slowing down the process than if I'd go full in on one and then the other.

Indeed it is harder for me to chase success now that I'm becoming more conscious. How do you deal with this? Do you even still chase success, and if you do then what is the reason behind, the drive?

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, fopylo said:

@Leo Gura

It's just that I don't know which to choose because
1) it seems more natural to start with success and then evolve into spiritual pursuits and -
2) spirituality seems to give the best fruits of life and I'm kinda focused on it now.

Yeah, well... struggle with it and you're sort that out through trial and error.

Quote

Thing is that meditation practices are helping me function like a normal human being, which helped me in social interactions. So I guess they can build off of each other, probably slowing down the process than if I'd go full in on one and then the other.

A meditation practice is such a minor thing. You can do that while pursing success. I was talking about serious spiritual work towards awakening, not just a meditation practice. A meditation is not a serious pursuit of anything.

Quote

Indeed it is harder for me to chase success now that I'm becoming more conscious. How do you deal with this? Do you even still chase success, and if you do then what is the reason behind, the drive?

I pursue my artistic and creative passions.

I am not a good example for you to follow because I already invested 10 years of my time in building massive stage Orange success. I doubt you have.

[fopylo]

@Leo Gura

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

A meditation practice is such a minor thing. You can do that while pursing success. I was talking about serious spiritual work towards awakening, not just a meditation practice. A meditation is not a serious pursuit of anything.

Oh I mean, I don't have any plan for meditating every day 6 hours towards Awakening. Also, problematic getting psychedelics because of life situation and logistics. Perhaps I should focus on success...

But doesn't 1 hour a day of meditation counter pursuing success?

11 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I am not a good example for you to follow because I already invested 10 years of my time in building massive stage Orange success. I doubt you have.

No I don't, in fact only like 1.5 years. For the last 6 months or so I've been introduced to spirituality. But I don't want to bypass. People who are more ignorant seem to be on the better end, not having to think that those are illusions. 

[WelcometoReality]

2 hours ago, fopylo said:

@WelcometoReality

So you're basically saying those meditation practices are indeed helping in dissolving negative images that I have about myself.

Since it will help dissolve the 'negative part' of the collective image of myself, I'll be left with the 'positive part'. And that will also be dissolved if I continue the work.

So it's like:

General image I have of myself (attachment to my mind and have limitations) --> Dissolvement of the 'not feeling good' images so that I'm left with better feeling images of myself (with still some attachments and limitations) --> Dissolving also that and becoming nothing?

So then building a self image can co-work with dissolving the self? meditation will dissolve the negative, and consciously creating a self image will enhance the positive, or so it seems.

But it still seems that the self image can make you somewhat neurotic. Now I want to be free from an attachment to an image.

Yes, exactly. Except building an image is counterproductive to dissolving an image so it's best to choose between the two. By dissolving the negative feelings you will automatically move up to positive feeling states which can then lead to total self transcendence.

[fopylo]

@WelcometoReality

Wait so what am I left with when I dissolve the negative images through meditations?

[WelcometoReality]

1 minute ago, fopylo said:

@WelcometoReality

Wait so what am I left with when I dissolve the negative images through meditations?

You'll move up to, for example, courage, acceptance, love and peace.

[fopylo]

@WelcometoReality

But does that mean I'll have a positive self image, or just those general emotions?

 

[Matt23]

On 7/20/2021 at 5:31 PM, fopylo said:

Psycho Cybernetics

I highly recommend this book.  Read all of those self-image, visualization books on Leo's book list.  I got a lot of motivation from reading Psycho-Cybernetics and just working on that basic self-image and visualization thing.  Things like just walking around and creating feelings I want to have in life; like just creating the feeling of already being successful, or of having a deep and comfortable connection with friends/community, etc.. 

You know Martin Ball?  That enlightened 5meo guy?  I did a counselling session with him once and this was his advice for me;

• It went something like... "Nothingness and enlightenment will always be there.  Go find your Matt-ness, your you-ness.  What do you like to do?  What do you enjoy?  Things like 5meo-DMT are great for guys like Mike Tyson who already had a massive ego.  For them, breaking down the ego was what was needed.  Now Mike Tyson is all lovey-dovey with his birds and stuff.  He needed that.  It sounds like to me you need to strengthen your ego, not destroy it."

Seemed relevant to your cause.  

But then again, spirituality might actually be in line with your life purpose and actually building your ego in a sense.  I can imagine things like doing 10-day meditation retreats being great for ego building and self-confidence since they are such difficult things to do.  Almost like going through boot camp or something.  Building discipline and ego-strength seems to be requirements to building a spiritual life in a sense.  At least in the beginning.  

Ultimately, feel it out.  Use your gut.  Do what you most want to do in each moment. 

[Soulife96]

8 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

They are not absolutely mutually exclusive. But there is definitely some serious trade-offs.

Which is why the most successful people in the world tend to be spiritually clueless.

Right

I am not saying success is not important in the relative domain. For me it was and still is important.

And when I talk about success I don't just mean something as shallow as chasing money. I have never chased money. For me success is about artistic work, life purpose, impacting mankind, mastering certain skills, and building a foundation for my life. This is important.

Creativity is core to my life and it conflicts enormously with awakening.

Of course it gets harder to chase illusions once you know too much.

@Leo Gura So chasing success is upper second tier, and "necessary" to integrate, in order to transcend and go up to third tier (spiral dynamics)?  You can't skip achiever stage? 

Edited July 23, 2021 by Soulife96
Mention

[Leo Gura]

@Soulife96 Nothing is necessary. These are just tendencies and rules of thumb.