A Metaphor for Pick Up in Relation to Female Sexuality

[NoSelfSelf]

@LastThursday Basically you described pick up haha, i dont know what you think it is but its same, only different thing is you dont activly do it you do it while living life(aka enjoying yourself drinking)  and thats alright..you say you have to work on stuff on a side .... striking conversation thats also pick up you go to talk to strangers(mosly girl)to build skill before doing something extra...

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

It's an interesting thread for sure. 

Ultimately, I want to ask, what is pick-up? I think there was a few posts which were extremely interesting asking "how pick-up overlaps with personal development"? And this is spot on in my opinion. 

Is pick-up "the development line" of masculine dating self-help? Or is it something else overlapping with it?

The way I see it is that pick-up reminds me of the relation alchemy versus real chemistry. It warrants some results, but it doesn't know exactly why. And a lot of it's theory appear to me as deadly wrong on a day-to-day basis when I read men talk about male/female attraction.

Pick-up surely overlaps with what creates female attraction, but you don't need to know pick-up to be attractive. And that's because it is basically a collection of great practices observed in those who have a high degree of development in the areas tied to human desirability.

And then what it tries to do is to generalize it, so men can emulate it and create results for themselves thanks to these tricks. But it's really also intertwined with a lot of unnecessary additions derived by masculine biases and projections. And this creates a lot of misconception about female desire for men. Especially because the results are also datas collected within a special social cultural context, at a certain point in time, through peculiar collective traumas etc. 

What bugs me a lot about this forum and the fact that a lot of time women in here a told that "you shouldn't ask women what they find attractive" is that it prevents women from correcting these misconception and more importantly it is a a self-deception mechanism from men to ignore the problems coming from pick-up.

And I'm not going to sugar-coat it, but I think that the reason why they do it is because obviously because seduction in general is a nest for devilry. Which include their own way of using other human for self-gratification, consciously or unconsciously and they don't want to be confronted about it.

Seduction is all about luring an object of desire your way as opposed as genuinely caring about an individual's welfare as well (which is love) and pick-up is generally used as the ultimate seduction tool towards getting the hottest girl your way.

In Christianity, the devil notoriously lure humans by giving them what they think they want, not caring about the truthfulness and righteousness of it on a longer cause and effect frame. God on the other hand, cares about the ecology and welfare of everyone. And I think it makes up for a great parallel on why pick-up comes up as unconscious and bugging because in 95% of the case, the knowledge gathered from it is used as a selfish seduction tool to extract from woman what a man wants from them. 

And particularly with pick-up culture, there is a clear emphasis on chasing vagina and treating women as objects towards a mean (sex) instead of focusing on finding a human being that correspond your real needs holistically. In that way, pick-up (as an umbrella term) can also absolutely dehumanizing towards female and it's not surprising that so much controversy and debate rise-up on a high consciousness self-help forum with these underlying dynamics. Because at the end of the day, if it leads to this type of interaction, it is a lose-lose.

Also, no conscious/developed woman will be attracted to a man resorting to this dynamic. The moment she sees that, it acts as a red flag. She understands that a man is not totally developed on the real attraction development line but is faking its attractive qualities toward gullible women and has drifted away from the real thing. She sees him as an "alchemist" praying on easy targets and that's adding up to the unattractiveness of the situation. But of course, most of the time the men are not aware of that fact and think the average women are normal while the conscious woman is deluded and a pain in the ass. 

But a developed man would be better off with a developed woman. Because relationship between men and female are not summarized to merely getting some sex. Sex is like 15-20% of a relationship at most. 

Well said!  

[Karmadhi]

Interesting that when men are given tools to make themselves more attractive to girls, girls get angry about it while wanting that guy pickup creates.

Meanwhile men love women who try to make themselves more attractive.

[NoSelfSelf]

@Karmadhi Because it doesnt feel right to them... they feel like you should be natural and everything from the start... key word is feeling its all backwards ?

[Karmadhi]

@NoSelfSelf Yeah women also naturally should be perfectly hot. BULLSHIT. Both sexes try to maximize their attractivness, it is just done in different ways.

Nothing natural about make up, shaving, working out etc however girls do it to make themselves more likely to find someone.

Why should not guys do the same?

 

[NoSelfSelf]

@Karmadhi If you looking for women to validate what should be done or not you are in the wrong mindset...you should be doing what you wanna do and validate yourself to the max if you wanna be muscular do that but if women say eww i hate muscles you would drop working out? Ultimately i said its backwards she will feel that you are secure in your personality and thats what attracts her...

[Karmadhi]

@Tangerinedream

4 minutes ago, Tangerinedream said:

How can pickup be done in a responsible way? 
what’s difference between non responsible and responsible? 

1. Not going for girls with boyfriends/husbands

2. Lying as little as possible.

3. Not pumping and dumping girls

4. Avoiding harems (dating multiple girls at the same time)

5. Avoiding being overly pushy to the point where it becomes harrasement

6. Not calling girls bitches and sluts if they reject you

7. Caring about the female agenda in terms of caring about how life.

8. Avoiding dread game

These should do it.

[LastThursday]

1 hour ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@LastThursday Basically you described pick up haha, i dont know what you think it is but its same, only different thing is you dont activly do it you do it while living life(aka enjoying yourself drinking)  and thats alright..you say you have to work on stuff on a side .... striking conversation thats also pick up you go to talk to strangers(mosly girl)to build skill before doing something extra...

I suppose it's a matter of definition 

I guess what this whole thread is about is active pickup and particularly cold approach in the street or club. The whole motivation is to "pickup" women for sex like you are going hunting for rabbits. I'm advocating not doing that, but as you say living life in whatever situation you find yourself in. But also not having that "hunting" mentality to it. Simply genuinely enjoy yourself and let that signal attraction when the situation arises. I'd say 99% of attraction is unconsciously motivated, just being open, agreeable and enjoying yourself makes you instantly more attractive/interesting to everyone.

Edited July 20, 2021 by LastThursday

[Etherial Cat]

1 hour ago, Karmadhi said:

Interesting that when men are given tools to make themselves more attractive to girls, girls get angry about it while wanting that guy pickup creates.

Meanwhile men love women who try to make themselves more attractive.

I think you are missing the point here.

Of course women love the fact that men are trying to make themselves more attractive for girls. But pick-up is un umbrella word which includes a lot of practices that are ultimately counter-productive and unattractive. I'm all for maximize dating related development lines, but I'm going to pin point at where traditional pick up is off.

And one of these place where it is off is when men see relationship is a zero sum game or a win-lose or a lose-win. Typically, reading our comments and thinking that our agenda is to prevent you from becoming more attractive is one of these misconception.

What we want to do is to create win-win solutions and help men to become truly attractive. And not waste your time and energy operating from common pitfalls which are widespread in the pick-up communities.

Another important point is to start listening to women instead of assuming by default that we are stupid and don't know what we like. Relationships without proper connection and discussion are doomed to be a train-wreck. Making yourself more attractive starts here with learning how to listen without thinking that we are here to take away your power.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[Etherial Cat]

2 hours ago, LastThursday said:

It's a good point. The lessons and experiences taken from pickup can be a form of development. In that sense pickup is not "bad" and perhaps for some men it gives them strong motivation to develop themselves (the prospect of sex being the motivator). But it is not the only form of development or even a particularly easy form. Understanding sexual dynamics from a less emotionally attached and more balanced viewpoint is also needed, which I think is what @Emerald is pointing towards.

Thank you.

Yes I really think that recognizing that pick-up has the ability both to help you develop your skills and lure you towards unattractive behavior and misconception is key.

 

[Etherial Cat]

1 hour ago, Emerald said:

Well said!  

Thank you! 

[Nahm]

Just add “art” after whatever, in objectifying there is no accountability. Super easy. 

Was today years old when I learned pua is an acronym for pick up artist. 

? 

[Karmadhi]

43 minutes ago, Tangerinedream said:

this doesn’t sound like pickup it just sounds like how normal people would approach dating?  

isn’t the point of pickup to up your body count? So how can you not pump and dump girls if it’s just about getting sex? 

Toxic pick up is about body count and how hot the girl is.

Positive pick up is about how much your skills improve regarding attracting girls. You can use pick up to get a cool girlfriend that normally you would not be able to get.

Normal people do not approach a lot of girls, do not know attraction theory, do not act dating like fishing with a net instead of with a hook. Normal people just get obsessed with 1 girl while pick up you talk to multiple girls.

[Chew211]

17 hours ago, Emerald said:

This is how I see pick-up. There are things that work in it. But most men misattribute or don't know why these things work. 

And that understanding of the patterns but not the causes behind the patterns, ends up very "meh" for women when it comes to intimacy... which is the main thing that motivates most of us to want sex in the first place. 

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

If that’s your agenda that’s fine. You don’t need to understand women to get sex.

It’s a numbers game at the end of the day. If you keep approaching, you’ll eventually find a woman who’s horny and thus open to a one-night stand with you... or simply one who’s lonely or lacking boundaries.

Just don’t kid yourself into thinking that you’ve satisfied her on any level that women generally would consider meaningful. 

 

I liked the metaphor in your original post. 

It's frustrating to see guy's willfully not getting the point. 

There's a fetishism of sex. Guys think that by getting laid there's something inside them that is valuable. But it's like you said, if one approaches enough chicks, sex is easy. The advanced pick up guys I know DON'T equate getting laid as a metric of measuring one's value, because once one puts in the time, getting laid becomes one of the easiest things to do. The guys that think that getting laid a lot means that one is high value are the ones that have difficulty getting laid. I've been there myself. 

As for the guys I know in big cities that are able to get laid, a lot of them struggle with finding a "regular". It's like for the girl, it's no big deal, just another dick in her hole. 

Pick up is great. But without applying an insight similar to yours, it's just not that great of an ROI. 

[Harlen Kelly]

16 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Just don't ask women about attraction or dating advice.

Nailed it. 

[Consilience]

2 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

Interesting that when men are given tools to make themselves more attractive to girls, girls get angry about it while wanting that guy pickup creates.

Meanwhile men love women who try to make themselves more attractive.

Lmao. So happy I didnt follow the female advice in this thread and instead started learning and implementing the principles of pickup. Granted, Ive been very selective about what teachers to learn from. Id argue the pickup material I consume is much higher consciousness than most. I suspect the pickup the females here are bashing is the sleazier kind which is what is most common. 

Pickup done well is a spiritual practice. The vulnerability, authenticity, and fearlessness required to approach a stranger is amazing. When two strangers meet and there’s sexual chemistry involved, it’s truly just the universe sorting itself out; when the man can rest in complete surrender and ease within this sorting out process, that is a powerful man.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Consilience

[Peter Miklis]

@Gesundheit2 Aren't "nice guys" just guys with weak boundaries and underdeveloped self esteem? Just like women who are overly promiscious, in a nuttshell basically the same thing.

I feel like, as long as you have strong boundaries and no bullshit policy, you can be as nice as you want without the need to imitate narcisistic, psychopathic traits.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Peter Miklis

[4201]

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

The solution to the issue I rose is to educate men on the difference between what is actually true about female sexuality and what is useful from the approaching perspective. And to not mix those things up.

But to be honest, I mostly come on here recently to spar and get my frustrations out through the medium of debate.

I don't think that's how it works. You are never going to "change men". Naive men or men who believe in such ideas are going to go through life and get hurt because of them and learn thanks to them. If you get frustrated because of something you dislike about a group of men, no attempts to change them will ever work in reality (perhaps you'd change 4 or 5 but this is a constantly changing demographic which attracts people who has those problems). The only way out of this frustration is to accept them as they are, they are part of reality, even if their beliefs are inconvenient to you.

It's like I'm trying to go out there and "educate billionaires" on the unequality there is in not paying taxes, doing it from a place of frustation. Yeah as if... It'd be nice if we could just educate conservatives on vaccines too. In practice it's much more difficult than that, the target demographic must be open to what you have to say in the first place.

After all why would you need to be understood by a bunch of lonely men online? There are more developped people out there if that's what you want.

11 hours ago, Emerald said:

I make it primarily for women who are constantly having their sexual desires misrepresented and are hence starved for quality male attention... because men generally don’t understand women.

But you are never going to "solve" this core issue that "men generally don’t understand women". Personally I don't entirely agree with this statement. A more accurate one would be "people generally don't understand other people at all". They don't even understand themselves. There are a lot of very big systemic factors at play in this issue, namely the way boys and girls are raised in our society. Your attempts to help with this issue may be noble but I strongly doubt your solution will have the effect you desire, this desire "to change men".

I would sincerely ponder on this desire to change men as any desire to change other people doesn't seem to be functional in my opinion. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by 4201

[aurum]

Both genders are self-deceived in thinking that casual sex will ultimately fulfill them.

You cannot compare the experience of a casual hookup versus "making love". It's like eating some stale crackers versus a home cooked, freshly made meal.

Granted, men may be more willing to eat the crackers than women for various reasons. But most guys are a lot more love-starved than they are sex-starved.

Casual sex is a sort of "holding back" of love. What you really want is to shower that person in love and pour everything into them. To give yourself fully over. And for them to do the same.

[Bando]

Theres a difference between conceptualy understanding meaningless sex won't make you fulfilled but its another thing to go through the act of having "meaningless sex" and then seeking out a more high quality experience. Most of the guys on this subform who make these pua threads are at the beginning stages of learning how to attract women in their life. Its irresponsible to tell them "Meaningless sex wont make you happy" when they cant even verify that out for themselves. Thats like a millionaire telling somebody whose poor, "Don't worry man having money doesn't make you a happier person."

Theres nothing profound in this thread, its common sense pickup is only attraction theory and you cannot build a healthy relationship out of attraction. Once your in a good place you then can focus on relationship building skills. 

You guys also have the wrong perception of pick up its does not equal "approach random girls and harass them", thats the type of vibe I get from you ladies when you speak on it. Its about being able to express your desire in an authentic, attractive way to woman you meet anywhere whether in your social circle, online or at a bar. Theres so much more to it then just cold approaching girls and you would know this if you were a guy that was actively dating women.

Pick up is only the beginning stages a man has to go through to develop the abundance mindset needed so that if a woman isn't a good match for him he can leave and find better. Women don't even understand how many options they have when it comes to dating they think the same applies to most men, when that cannot be further from the truth. As a young guy even if your confident your options will pale in comparison unless you learn what attracts women and force yourself to take action to gain experiences.

I don't care how self developed you are if you don't believe you can attract the right people in your life you'll never develop the right boundaries needed to have a successful relationship. You must go through the experience of dating and sleeping with multiple women to understand this. Its foolish to bank on the probability that the first woman you date is going to be the right one for you. 

What you find out as a young guy that has no experience dealing with woman is that its pretty difficult to attract women you want in your life thus some men will turn to pick up and those are the lucky ones. The rest just live a live of quiet desperation believing there's nothing they can do and settle for toxic relationships because they cant do better.

To the men who are in the pick up stage of their life, embrace it and go through it don't let the other members on this subforum gaslight you into believing its not necessary to develop if done correctly it will be one of the best experiences in your life that will positively shape your character.