A Metaphor for Pick Up in Relation to Female Sexuality

[Emerald]

28 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Who is saying that pickup is supposed to give you a deep understading of a person though? Leo's take on pickup? Someone else's take on pickup?

I’m not saying pick up is SUPPOSED to do that.

I just said that it DOESN’T currently do that, but gives men the impression that it does. Hence creating a distorted view of female sexuality.

You are criticizing the whole of pickup as if all people who engage in pickup are joined together in some pickup manifesto, where they write down their dysfunctional beliefs about women. In practice pickup is just a way to get to talk to women as opposed to doing nothing in your mom's basement.

I understand why pick up exists. I would probably do pick up for a while if I were a guy. I can see it’s useful in some ways.

I’m just pointing out that the misrepresentation of female sexuality that men believe in as a result of pick up’s framing, really grinds my gears because it has men believing things that will make them think they’re better lovers but ends up making them worse lovers where it counts, from the female perspective.

Could this group of people who probably don't have much people to talk to anyway, who are left with nothing but pickup to meet people, possibly in general also hold dysfunctional beliefs about relationships? Yes but that would just be a generality. 

This demographic of people is likely present on this forum because it overlaps the demographic of people who needs self-help with relationships. As long as this forum is about helping people, there will be people who need help in it and those people who need help may hold wrong views about reality. If they didn't, they wouldn't need help. You could consider this a systemic problem within the demographic of this forum but then how do we "solve" the issue?

The solution to the issue I rose is to educate men on the difference between what is actually true about female sexuality and what is useful from the approaching perspective. And to not mix those things up.

My issue has never been with men exploring their sexuality. My issue has always been with the inaccurate framing of women’s sexuality.

Wouldn’t it be frustrating to you if women en masse were learning a bunch of ‘useful for their own agenda’ but otherwise total bullshit about men that ultimately got in the way of male sexual fulfillment?

Like if there was a huge group of women brainwashing other women into believing that men hate getting blowjobs or something. And then when you said, “Actually... men quite like them.”

And then you’d get five random women saying some version of “Don’t listen to him. Never trust a man’s perspective on what he wants.”

Sure your thread may bring people to see through your perspective, if they are open to it. But if you were to take the perspective of a desperate person who tries pickup as an alternative to staying in their basement and not talking to anyone (prob the core audience of pickup), this post would likely appear as an attack from someone who dislikes pickup and try to invalidate something that helped them.

It might be viewed that way. But I did specify in the OP that my issue is not with pick-up in itself. So, I can’t help what others project onto my critique. 

For those people who had positive experiences and progress in their development through pickup, does this confrontation actually help them grow and go to the next level?

Yes! That’s the goal. I want men to actually understand what women want so that the sacred dance can be done properly.

At the very least, I want men here to understand that having some sexual success with women doesn’t equate to really understanding how female sexuality really functions. Men tend to understand female sexuality in the most garish and harsh of ways. 

The reality of it is much more interesting and beautiful. I wish I could give the experience of it... but I can only describe it subjectively... and it’s not very user friendly so most men don’t want to hear about it.

In my opinion, if you wanted to advertise true relationships to people who are into pickup, so that they can get to the next level, the best way to do it would be to talk about the good and benefits of relationships instead of trying to talk down on pickup. It's like I'm trying to get you to try formula 1 racing by shit talking how the way you drive to get your groceries is "so casual". Yes there is more than pickup but you won't convince people who are identified with pickup to go beyong by shit talking what they are identified with.

Fair point.

But to be honest, I mostly come on here recently to spar and get my frustrations out through the medium of debate.

I like to simultaneously help and spar. But touché, maybe this framing is more conducive to sparring than helping.

But at last, are you doing this post out of true concern for the pickup artists who miss out on real relationships because they are too much into pickup? Or are you doing this to validate and defend your belief that pickup is bad and you shouldn't date with people you don't know? 

I make it primarily for women who are constantly having their sexual desires misrepresented and are hence starved for quality male attention... because men generally don’t understand women. But I also want to help these pick up guys have a more accurate understanding of what the subjective experience of female sexuality is to help them out with the intimacy element that women need to satisfied with a man.

 

[Parththakkar12]

9 hours ago, Tangerinedream said:

yeah i mean, socialise with girls from young age so you don't get toxic mindset about them when older.

So, you would mind-control him into not having what you're calling a 'toxic mindset'? I don't think that would be helpful. How is it toxic to want a woman or to want a relationship?

8 hours ago, soos_mite_ah said:

If my child was a boy, I would also tell him that his worth isn't dependent on a girl and I would have a discussion with him regarding how society has this expectation of masculinity where if you dont get girls you're some type of a loser. I would teach him that this isnt a healthy way to approach masculinity and relationships in general. I woul teach him to d be mindful of society's expectations for men and how it isn't always accurate or healthy when it comes to dealing with friendships and relationships with women. I would teach him self acceptance even if it feels like it's going at odds with society's standards for him. 

That's pretty female-biased. Not helping him actually get a girl, instead, teaching him to be okay with not having one so that women don't have to put up with the horror of a human being your son is, so that you can enslave him to yourself. Way to go, mothers!

I think a better idea would be to tell him 'Don't worry about stuck-up, holier-than-thou, morally superior women who reject you. You deserve better than that!'

9 hours ago, Preety_India said:

Why is it hard and if it's hard, isn't that a good thing ?

 

It's hard because there are way too many women waiting to falsely accuse you. And, if you think that's a good thing, you think that having men under your control is a good thing, that shows me who you really are.

The normalization of these behaviors just shows how much man-hate there is in the world and how low women are willing to stoop in their man-hate to ruin their son's lives, let alone other men! We really do live in a culture of man-hate. I know what your smug faces are calling me. 'Sexist, misogynist'. I don't care, it just proves my point.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Peter Miklis]

So just make yourself as attractive as possible + look for relationships = way to go. Got it?

[Jacob Morres]

@Emerald  personally it's just too judgemental for me too take it seriously. I would prefer if you offered your opinion and wanted to have conversations. 

Like the way you talk about people who do pickup, just the wording is sort of insulting. But that's just me 

Anyway hope you can reconsider your approach. If not, I get it

Edited July 20, 2021 by Jacob Morres

[Gesundheit2]

12 hours ago, Emerald said:

And it's a shame because women really need to feel seen and understood to feel intimacy and satisfaction in a relationship with a man.

That's not women sexuality. It's just human insecurity.

Nice guys have similar needs/issues. The way they go about fulfilling them is by projecting on women the image of a wonderful angelic perfect human being that's loving and understanding, resembling the attention they want from the mommy they're still attached to. Basically, nice guys put women on a pedestal, like a child that hasn't/can't let go of his mommy yet, because he's weak and insecure. And so, they spin their maternal cord and throw it onto other women hoping that it would attach to one of them. But that ends up backfiring because most women are insecure about themselves in the first place, and so they don't feel comfortable with being on a pedestal, because they're not real mature mommies yet. And even if they were, they would rather cater to someone who is more related to them than just a random dude who treats them well. That's why the nice guy approach is a fatal strategy within the context of pickup. It rarely works, if ever.

Likewise, a mature man resembles the daddy that women put on a pedestal. And so this dynamic works, because the man is comfortable with being the leader/on a pedestal, and the woman is needy and insecure in most cases, and she's looking for someone to satisfy her needs and provide stability in her life, exactly like a daddy. But notice, even if the woman was mature, and not needy, nor insecure about herself, she would rather choose the daddy archetype because he'd make a better father for her children than the nice guy. At the point of maturity, her mother instincts start working alongside her sexual instincts. So the only reason a mature woman would settle for a nice guy is the lack of a better option.

Investigate the feelings of intimacy, you'll find that they're just insecurities masked as needs. I was a nice guy once, and I used to experience romantic intimacy with women the same way women experience it with men. All intimacy stems from insecurities/self-image issues/co-dependency/attachement. A mature and healthy human being does not experience any intimacy with humans or animals or any external objects, only with themselves as the divine. But that appearance can be faked to others, which is where pickup advice is useful for. Most PUAs are not spiritual, and don't know anything about their divine nature, but somehow they're still in touch with it, and so they unknowingly try to get there through the "fake it till you make it" approach, which is why they're not the real deal. They're nowhere near the ideal man. They're low consciousness, deceptive, and self-deceived. They're not really confident or leaders, just a facade. But since women are just humans, they get fooled by the appearances. And so here we are.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[LastThursday]

10 hours ago, Karmadhi said:

You take for granted how hard it is for some people to "openly flirt and advertise yourself". For some it is super difficult and needs 15 different limiting beliefs getting tackled. Imagine you think you re a shity boring weak ugly guy, you will not have the guts to even flirt with her.  Imagine being super shy, you will not have the guts to even look her in the eye yet alone create sexual tension.

Pick up is a last resort for such people.

There is a mixture of fear, bad self image and lack of experience for a lot of men. I understand that trying pickup is a kind of therapy by exposure if you like. It's like jumping into an ice-cold swimming pool, it's unpleasant but you get used to it after a while. I totally get it. For some it may be the only way to meet women.

But bad self image has nothing to do with pickup and requires proper talking therapy or prolonged self development work to improve. Having a string of one night stands may improve your self image, it may not. Given the brutal success rate of pickup, for most it will probably worsen self image.

What shy guys need is socialisation. They need to be exposed to talking to people of both sexes more often. But the drive to do this needs to come from the shy guy.

10 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

I dont know tell me whats better option for buildong confidence i havent found it...

Basic self development. That means having a purpose in life, being well socialised, eating well, having a basic level of fitness, i.e. all the stuff on Maslow's triangle. And, everything that Leo talks about.

10 hours ago, NoSelfSelf said:

What do you mean by advertising yourself?

By realising that you're a red blooded male and that women find that naturally attractive. It's walking in to a place, sitting down and saying "look here I am this is what i've got to offer" (metaphorically). Rather than being a hard-nosed salesman (pickup), you're an advertising hoarding (ridiculous analogy but there you go). How you advertise yourself comes with practice, and in a way it doesn't matter, some women will like it, most won't. But nearly all women will acknowledge your ability to do it.

[Etherial Cat]

It's an interesting thread for sure. 

Ultimately, I want to ask, what is pick-up? I think there was a few posts which were extremely interesting asking "how pick-up overlaps with personal development"? And this is spot on in my opinion. 

Is pick-up "the development line" of masculine dating self-help? Or is it something else overlapping with it?

The way I see it is that pick-up reminds me of the relation alchemy versus real chemistry. It warrants some results, but it doesn't know exactly why. And a lot of it's theory appear to me as deadly wrong on a day-to-day basis when I read men talk about male/female attraction.

Pick-up surely overlaps with what creates female attraction, but you don't need to know pick-up to be attractive. And that's because it is basically a collection of great practices observed in those who have a high degree of development in the areas tied to human desirability.

And then what it tries to do is to generalize it, so men can emulate it and create results for themselves thanks to these tricks. But it's really also intertwined with a lot of unnecessary additions derived by masculine biases and projections. And this creates a lot of misconception about female desire for men. Especially because the results are also datas collected within a special social cultural context, at a certain point in time, through peculiar collective traumas etc. 

What bugs me a lot about this forum and the fact that a lot of time women in here a told that "you shouldn't ask women what they find attractive" is that it prevents women from correcting these misconception and more importantly it is a a self-deception mechanism from men to ignore the problems coming from pick-up.

And I'm not going to sugar-coat it, but I think that the reason why they do it is because obviously because seduction in general is a nest for devilry. Which include their own way of using other human for self-gratification, consciously or unconsciously and they don't want to be confronted about it.

Seduction is all about luring an object of desire your way as opposed as genuinely caring about an individual's welfare as well (which is love) and pick-up is generally used as the ultimate seduction tool towards getting the hottest girl your way.

In Christianity, the devil notoriously lure humans by giving them what they think they want, not caring about the truthfulness and righteousness of it on a longer cause and effect frame. God on the other hand, cares about the ecology and welfare of everyone. And I think it makes up for a great parallel on why pick-up comes up as unconscious and bugging because in 95% of the case, the knowledge gathered from it is used as a selfish seduction tool to extract from woman what a man wants from them. 

And particularly with pick-up culture, there is a clear emphasis on chasing vagina and treating women as objects towards a mean (sex) instead of focusing on finding a human being that correspond your real needs holistically. In that way, pick-up (as an umbrella term) can also absolutely dehumanizing towards female and it's not surprising that so much controversy and debate rise-up on a high consciousness self-help forum with these underlying dynamics. Because at the end of the day, if it leads to this type of interaction, it is a lose-lose.

Also, no conscious/developed woman will be attracted to a man resorting to this dynamic. The moment she sees that, it acts as a red flag. She understands that a man is not totally developed on the real attraction development line but is faking its attractive qualities toward gullible women and has drifted away from the real thing. She sees him as an "alchemist" praying on easy targets and that's adding up to the unattractiveness of the situation. But of course, most of the time the men are not aware of that fact and think the average women are normal while the conscious woman is deluded and a pain in the ass. 

But a developed man would be better off with a developed woman. Because relationship between men and female are not summarized to merely getting some sex. Sex is like 15-20% of a relationship at most. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Etherial Cat

[Preety_India]

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

It's hard because there are way too many women waiting to falsely accuse you. And, if you think that's a good thing, you think that having men under your control is a good thing, that shows me who you really are.

This is some serious bullshit. Very incel-type thinking. I have had men flirt with me, I never accused them of anything. Most women prefer being flirted with. 

You're conflating dating strategies with some stupid limited beliefs about women..you can't get success like that. 

First of all women don't owe you shit. Second, if a woman accused the guy, how do you know that he didn't do anything inappropriate ? If you have a personal experience that's similar, then no man would be flirting with women in this world. Just because you've these negative beliefs about women, the world doesn't stop dating or  having sex, your limiting beliefs are your own loss and no man wants advice that won't help him get a girl..if what you say is even remotely true, then Leo won't be telling guys to go out and talk. You're making up hypothetical bullshit scenarios because your ego is not allowing you to approach women so your mind has come up with ego defense mechanisms to avoid having to put the effort in attracting women so you can feel good about yourself and not have to suffer ego resistance.

When did I say that being falsely accused is a good thing? What nonsense. I didn't even mention false accusations. It's something you created out of nowhere. Twisting the meaning of my words to fit your narrative. Look how you make up shit out of nothing. I can say right now you already have a huge list of reasons to not date a woman. 

You're doing some self prophecy fulfilling bullshit here. You say something which will obviously generate offense and then use that as a justification to ridicule those who feel offended. And then you say it proves your point ? How about first looking at the stuff you say ? 

Now if your mind is neutral enough to understand what I'm saying without taking a biased meaning out of it then this is what I meant - I said if flirting is hard it's a good thing. Because it's a form of challenge for men. Men enjoy being challenged. It stimulates them. They like the idea of winning or achieving something that's difficult. So if flirting was super easy, most men would be bored. If flirting is challenging, it gives men an opportunity to renew their strategies and try new skills of creating attraction. This is good since this becomes a learning process for men and helps them know what works and what doesn't,at the same time giving them a sense of direction.

I have no idea how you interpret things but you completely change the meaning of what's being said and distort and gave it a very twisted meaning. Watch out your projections.

49 minutes ago, LastThursday said:

There is a mixture of fear, bad self image and lack of experience for a lot of men. I understand that trying pickup is a kind of therapy by exposure if you like. It's like jumping into an ice-cold swimming pool, it's unpleasant but you get used to it after a while. I totally get it. For some it may be the only way to meet women.

But bad self image has nothing to do with pickup and requires proper talking therapy or prolonged self development work to improve. Having a string of one night stands may improve your self image, it may not. Given the brutal success rate of pickup, for most it will probably worsen self image.

What shy guys need is socialisation. They need to be exposed to talking to people of both sexes more often. But the drive to do this needs to come from the shy guy.

Basic self development. That means having a purpose in life, being well socialised, eating well, having a basic level of fitness, i.e. all the stuff on Maslow's triangle. And, everything that Leo talks about.

By realising that you're a red blooded male and that women find that naturally attractive. It's walking in to a place, sitting down and saying "look here I am this is what i've got to offer" (metaphorically). Rather than being a hard-nosed salesman (pickup), you're an advertising hoarding (ridiculous analogy but there you go). How you advertise yourself comes with practice, and in a way it doesn't matter, some women will like it, most won't. But nearly all women will acknowledge your ability to do it.

Look at the answer above on how to advertise yourself.

1 hour ago, Parththakkar12 said:

 

It's hard because there are way too many women waiting to falsely accuse you. And, if you think that's a good thing, you think that having men under your control is a good thing, that shows me who you really are.

The normalization of these behaviors just shows how much man-hate there is in the world and how low women are willing to stoop in their man-hate to ruin their son's lives, let alone other men! We really do live in a culture of man-hate. I know what your smug faces are calling me. 'Sexist, misogynist'. I don't care, it just proves my point.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Preety_India

[Parththakkar12]

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This is some serious bullshit. Very incel-type thinking. I have had men flirt with me, I never accused them of anything. Most women prefer being flirted with. 

Well, then you don't know what's going on. Ignorance is bliss! Forget about what I told you.

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

First of all women don't owe you shit. Second, if a woman accused the guy, how do you know that he didn't do anything inappropriate ?

Well, men don't owe women an explanation for what you think is 'inappropriate' either! Women purposefully blur lines to accuse men and act out their man-hate.

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

If you have a personal experience that's similar, then no man would be flirting with women in this world. Just because you've these negative beliefs about women, the world doesn't stop dating or  having sex, your limiting beliefs are your own loss and no man wants advice that won't help him get a girl..if what you say is even remotely true, then Leo won't be telling guys to go out and talk. You're making up hypothetical bullshit scenarios because your ego is not allowing you to approach women so your mind has come up with ego defense mechanisms to avoid having to put the effort in attracting women so you can feel good about yourself and not have to suffer ego resistance.

You're making up stories about my 'limiting beliefs'. You don't know a fucking thing about me. Anti-male bias alert! You believe that men, in general, are lazy and they'll create beliefs about women to do so. You're the one making shit up.

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You're doing some self prophecy fulfilling bullshit here. You say something which will obviously generate offense and then use that as a justification to ridicule those who feel offended. And then you say it proves your point ? How about first looking at the stuff you say ? 

It generates offense because it's true. I speak from direct experience, I know what I'm talking about. I'm sure about it.

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

When did I say that being falsely accused is a good thing? What nonsense. I didn't even mention false accusations. It's something you created out of nowhere. Twisting the meaning of my words to fit your narrative. Look how you make up shit out of nothing. I can say right now you already have a huge list of reasons to not date a woman. 

I don't give a fuck about your opinion on whether I should date or not. I'm telling you what's true.

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Now if your mind is neutral enough to understand what I'm saying without taking a biased meaning out of it then this is what I meant - I said if flirting is hard it's a good thing. Because it's a form of challenge for men. Men enjoy being challenged. It stimulates them. They like the idea of winning or achieving something that's difficult. So if flirting was super easy, most men would be bored. If flirting is challenging, it gives men an opportunity to renew their strategies and try new skills of creating attraction. This is good since this becomes a learning process for men and helps them know what works and what doesn't,at the same time giving them a sense of direction.

Nope. Women like being the challenge! It inflates the female ego to have a man struggle and suffer to finally get her, it means that he values her a lot. You are projecting what you like onto the man!

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I have no idea how you interpret things but you completely change the meaning of what's being said and distort and gave it a very twisted meaning. Watch out your projections.

You're the one twisting the meaning of what I'm saying according to your biases.

38 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Look at the answer above on how to advertise yourself.

Why do you think I'd want advice from you, of all people?! Do you really think you're that smart and perceptive?!

Edited July 20, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Gesundheit2]

2 hours ago, Peter Miklis said:

So just make yourself as attractive as possible + look for relationships = way to go. Got it?

Purple pill instead of red; colors for all tastes.

Pick up your pill and have fun 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[Preety_India]

15 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Well, then you don't know what's going on. Ignorance is bliss! Forget about what I told you.

Exactly what is going on ? I didn't see a single man being falsely accused ? You're saying something totally weird and something I've never heard of. Are you using one thing to generalise all women ?

You really believe that men don't have girlfriends.

 

15 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Well, men don't owe women an explanation for what you think is 'inappropriate' either! Women purposefully blur lines to accuse men and act out their man-hate.

How do you think men and women have sex if women were busy accusing men ? What sort of logic are you applying ? 

Why shouldn't women deserve an explanation of inappropriate behaviour? Isn't the behaviour directed at her ? Why would you want a woman to be unsafe ?

 

15 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

You're making up stories about my 'limiting beliefs'. You don't know a fucking thing about me. Anti-male bias alert!

Just because I called out your limited beliefs, it's automatically "anti-male." You're acting as though you're the only male. How is calling you out biased against other men ? 

I don't think any man told me they were falsely accused. 

15 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Nope. Women like being the challenge! It inflates the female ego to have a man struggle and suffer to finally get her, it means that he values her a lot. You are projecting what you like onto the man!

Fair enough if you want to make it look like that. But do you have a problem if a man enjoys being challenged by the woman ? Does it mean that just because it's bad in your eyes, it's bad for every man ? I'm sure a lot of men enjoy finding a woman a challenge. They want a sought after woman. 

15 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Why do you think I'd want advice from you, of all people?! Do you really think you're that smart and perceptive?!

It wasn't my advice. It was the other guy LastThursday who gave some excellent points on advertising oneself. 

I don't think I'm smart.  I'm not stupid either. You're stooping a little low in wanting to insult my intelligence. Doesn't reflect much about me 

 

[NoSelfSelf]

@LastThursday Can you give me an example of a situation how you do that? And that assumes you are already atrractive extroverted guy that can talk to strangers...thats what pick up does...and you wait for them to approach you ?or you get in convos that are usually in groups and thats even harder than solo pick up ?

[Parththakkar12]

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Exactly what is going on ? I didn't see a single man being falsely accused ? You're saying something totally weird and something I've never heard of. Are you using one thing to generalise all women ?

Do you know why most men don't approach women? I'll tell you why - there is a very high probability that she'll assume he's harassing her. It's a massive risk to approach a woman nowadays. This does not reflect well on women's femininity. At all. If you want to 'challenge' men like this, this is not fair game.

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You really believe that men don't have girlfriends.

It's easier when you're a narcissist who doesn't really care about the woman's safety but is very good at pretending that you do!

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

How do you think men and women have sex if women were busy accusing men ? What sort of logic are you applying ? 

I don't know and I don't care how they have sex. What I do know is that women's assessments of who is 'safe' and who is 'unsafe' tend to be pretty unfair and based on inaccurate perceptions, because of daddy-issues. That's why women go for the narcissistic guy (definition of unsafe) in order to escape the 'unsafe' guy or the guy who she thought looked at her the wrong way!

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Why shouldn't women deserve an explanation of inappropriate behaviour? Isn't the behaviour directed at her ? Why would you want a woman to be unsafe ?

Women tend to delude themselves about a guy being 'unsafe'. This is because women are biologically hardwired to be in fear all the time!

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Just because I called out your limited beliefs, it's automatically "anti-male." You're acting as though you're the only male. How is calling you out biased against other men ?

Those aren't 'my limiting beliefs'. It's the truth. Your perception of them as 'limiting beliefs' is because of anti-male conditioning!

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

I don't think any man told me they were falsely accused. 

Well, they aren't telling you their deepest fears in that case. They want to show you how 'strong' they are! 'Strong' and 'masculine' and 'fearless'.

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Fair enough if you want to make it look like that. But do you have a problem if a man enjoys being challenged by the woman ? Does it mean that just because it's bad in your eyes, it's bad for every man ? I'm sure a lot of men enjoy finding a woman a challenge. They want a sought after woman. 

Most men want a lay-count. Not a challenge! Especially if they're narcissists.

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Do you know why most men don't approach women?

 

Because they are shy and are scared of being rejected ! Not because of false accusations.

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I'll tell you why - there is a very high probability that she'll assume he's harassing her. It's a massive risk to approach a woman nowadays. This does not reflect well on women's femininity. At all. If you want to 'challenge' men like this, this is not fair game.

Only if the guy is really harassing her. There is no reason to think if he isn't harassing her.like I said women like and enjoy a man flirting with her.

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

It's easier when you're a narcissist who doesn't really care about the woman's safety but is very good at pretending that you do!

So you're thinking that all guys who have girlfriends are Narcissists ? What makes you arrive at this sort of a strange conclusion?

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

I don't know and I don't care how they have sex. What I do know is that women's assessments of who is 'safe' and who is 'unsafe' tend to be pretty unfair and based on inaccurate perceptions, because of daddy-issues. That's why women go for the narcissistic guy (definition of unsafe) in order to escape the 'unsafe' guy or the guy who she thought looked at her the wrong way!

This got to be some comedy..the whole thing just doesn't make sense. Women go for Narcissists because they want to escape a good guy ? Like what ? 

Why will a woman jeopardize her own safety? 

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Women tend to delude themselves about a guy being 'unsafe'. This is because women are biologically hardwired to be in fear all the time!

Maybe it's because this biological wiring came from facing a ton of violence and rape ? Have you ever considered that a lot of women have been traumatized and it's difficult for them to trust and they shouldn't be blamed if you aren't able to establish trust ?

You want a woman to simply say yes to every guy and jeopardize her safety without screening if the guy is safe to date ?

You're contradicting yourself. 

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Those aren't 'my limiting beliefs'. It's the truth. Your perception of them as 'limiting beliefs' is because of anti-male conditioning!

Well, they aren't telling you their deepest fears in that case.

Maybe it's your fear. I'm yet to see another man here saying this. 

3 minutes ago, Parththakkar12 said:

Most men want a lay-count. Not a challenge! Especially if they're narcissists.

 

Even a lay count is a challenge!

 

[Parththakkar12]

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Because they are shy and are scared of being rejected ! Not because of false accusations.

Yeah. And why would you be scared of being rejected? Because she will spread rumours and gossip about how 'creepy' you are, she may even falsely accuse you. There is this line 'The worst that could happen is that she could say 'no', right?' Wrong. A lot worse things could happen.

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Only if the guy is really harassing her. There is no reason to think if he isn't harassing her.like I said women like and enjoy a man flirting with her.

The 'really harassing her' could be an assumption! Based on the way he looks, if he has some weird quirk that reminds you of something unsettling. It's subjective!

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

This got to be some comedy..the whole thing just doesn't make sense. Women go for Narcissists because they want to escape a good guy ? Like what ? 

Why will a woman jeopardize her own safety? 

If she had a narcissistic father, she was not safe in her childhood. She doesn't know what 'safety' even means! But, she's been conditioned with an idea of what safety means by her culture. And to look for a man like her father. So, even though she truly does want safety, she'll be caught in the pattern of being paranoid towards guys who are safe and going for guys who are unsafe and narcissistic.

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

So you're thinking that all guys who have girlfriends are Narcissists ? What makes you arrive at this sort of a strange conclusion?

Most of them are. There are very few guys with girlfriends who actually care about women's safety! The norm is asshole/bad-boy/jock/brash guy who doesn't give a damn. Is this an awesome thing for women? No. But, it's the norm! And women do this because of daddy-issues.

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Maybe it's because this biological wiring came from facing a ton of violence and rape ? Have you ever considered that a lot of women have been traumatized and it's difficult for them to trust and they shouldn't be blamed if you aren't able to establish trust ?

The trauma from violence and rape is legit. That is precisely the reason they mis-evaluate and misjudge the safety of a man! And they keep going for the unsafe guy. It's a Stockholm-syndrome thing.

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

You want a woman to simply say yes to every guy and jeopardize her safety without screening if the guy is safe to date ?

You're contradicting yourself. 

I never said I'm against the screening. I'm saying that the screening tends to be inaccurate and unfair to all involved.

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Maybe it's your fear. I'm yet to see another man here saying this. 

It's because they don't know. Also, it's because it's something that's frowned upon to be talking about as a guy. It's 'weak' or something. That is precisely what makes it happen!

Do you know why most guys are so scared of challenging female opinion in general? Because the cancel-culture and judgements can get pretty bad. The misuse of the system can get pretty bad!

14 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Even a lay count is a challenge!

Depends on the self-esteem and self-worth of the women in question. If they have low self-worth, their assessments of 'safety' will be shallow.

Edited July 20, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[LastThursday]

1 hour ago, NoSelfSelf said:

@LastThursday Can you give me an example of a situation how you do that? And that assumes you are already atrractive extroverted guy that can talk to strangers...thats what pick up does...and you wait for them to approach you ?or you get in convos that are usually in groups and thats even harder than solo pick up ?

I can only give you my point of view, I'm not a coach in these things (perhaps I should be, I need a LP!).

It works for any situation. The intention behind any social situation should be: "I'm here to enjoy myself". So whether you're sat in a bar or restaurant by yourself, or with male friends, or a mixed group, the intention should always be the same. I'm largely an introvert myself, being with people for long periods wears me down, and I'm not the first to pipe up in groups. But I like people. If you're afraid of people or have social anxiety, then that needs working on first before even considering getting into the attraction game.

The second intention is to share that enjoyment with others. This is what I mean by "advertising", you're communicating that you want to connect by saying "look at me I'm enjoying myself, do you want to share in that?".  There should be no other agenda, no "hey ladies I'm looking for a fuck". There's a big difference in how you behave and carry yourself between the two intents.

Thirdly you need to be able to talk to strangers. There's no other way around it. If you can't talk to people then again that needs to be worked on first.

You don't need to be extrovert to appear "open" and "approachable". Smiling, eye contact, relaxed open posture, and wanting to initiate conversation is all you need. If you're advertising yourself this way, then any conversation will be fluid and not awkward. If you find that you're having a longer conversation and there is flirting and attraction, then you test the water by escalating the sexual tension. 

That process of escalation definitely takes courage and experience, and it's not something that comes easily to me I admit. But "advertising" yourself certainly helps you get to that point more smoothly.

Whether you initiate conversation or they do or it's one person or a group isn't relevant. I'd say from personal experience talking to groups is easier even if you're by yourself: the chances that someone finds you interesting is much higher, and once that happens the rest of the group follows.

The main take away is that I'm not trying to play a game, I am genuinely enjoying myself in any social situation and showing my enjoyment to others. If I'm not in the mood for socialising, then I don't go.

Edited July 20, 2021 by LastThursday

[LastThursday]

2 hours ago, Etherial Cat said:

Is pick-up "the development line" of masculine dating self-help? Or is it something else overlapping with it?

It's a good point. The lessons and experiences taken from pickup can be a form of development. In that sense pickup is not "bad" and perhaps for some men it gives them strong motivation to develop themselves (the prospect of sex being the motivator). But it is not the only form of development or even a particularly easy form. Understanding sexual dynamics from a less emotionally attached and more balanced viewpoint is also needed, which I think is what @Emerald is pointing towards.

[Karmadhi]

Just let guys do pick up in a responsible way and stop crying about it.

Problem solved.

[LastThursday]

It reminds me of the slogan here in the UK: Drink Responsibly. An oxymoron if ever I heard one.

[Emerald]

3 hours ago, Gesundheit2 said:

That's not women sexuality. It's just human insecurity.

Nice guys have similar needs/issues. The way they go about fulfilling them is by projecting on women the image of a wonderful angelic perfect human being that's loving and understanding, resembling the attention they want from the mommy they're still attached to. Basically, nice guys put women on a pedestal, like a child that hasn't/can't let go of his mommy yet, because he's weak and insecure. And so, they spin their maternal cord and throw it onto other women hoping that it would attach to one of them. But that ends up backfiring because most women are insecure about themselves in the first place, and so they don't feel comfortable with being on a pedestal, because they're not real mature mommies yet. And even if they were, they would rather cater to someone who is more related to them than just a random dude who treats them well. That's why the nice guy approach is a fatal strategy within the context of pickup. It rarely works, if ever.

Likewise, a mature man resembles the daddy that women put on a pedestal. And so this dynamic works, because the man is comfortable with being the leader/on a pedestal, and the woman is needy and insecure in most cases, and she's looking for someone to satisfy her needs and provide stability in her life, exactly like a daddy. But notice, even if the woman was mature, and not needy, nor insecure about herself, she would rather choose the daddy archetype because he'd make a better father for her children than the nice guy. At the point of maturity, her mother instincts start working alongside her sexual instincts. So the only reason a mature woman would settle for a nice guy is the lack of a better option.

Investigate the feelings of intimacy, you'll find that they're just insecurities masked as needs. I was a nice guy once, and I used to experience romantic intimacy with women the same way women experience it with men. All intimacy stems from insecurities/self-image issues/co-dependency/attachement. A mature and healthy human being does not experience any intimacy with humans or animals or any external objects, only with themselves as the divine. But that appearance can be faked to others, which is where pickup advice is useful for. Most PUAs are not spiritual, and don't know anything about their divine nature, but somehow they're still in touch with it, and so they unknowingly try to get there through the "fake it till you make it" approach, which is why they're not the real deal. They're nowhere near the ideal man. They're low consciousness, deceptive, and self-deceived. They're not really confident or leaders, just a facade. But since women are just humans, they get fooled by the appearances. And so here we are.

Intimacy... which means being seen and understood by your another person... is a relationship need for women. It's also a relationship need for a man. Intimacy serves as the foundation for a good relationship.

It's just that men can still experience random sex with a woman without intimacy and still feel relatively satisfied with the experience.

For women, random sex without intimacy is high risk/low reward. The real spice of the relationship for women, is the intimacy. And without that, a sexual relationship with a man is pretty boring as it doesn't even scratch the surface of what's genuinely stimulating for us.

So, don't project men's insecurities onto women's sexuality and relationship needs. 

It would be like you saying, "Most men need sex to feel fulfilled in a relationship" and I would respond by saying... "That's just the insecurity talking." But no... it is genuinely something most men would require in order to feel that a relationship to a woman is fulfilling.

So, from the female perspective, a relationship where the man can't/doesn't see you or understand you is as dull and dry as a relationship with a woman who never expresses sexual desire for you.