Spiral dynamics and distrust of government

[Mannyb]

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

I observe that vaccine skeptics are not actually truth-oriented. You're being very kind here with the benefit of the doubt

In fact, they may even be more survival-oriented than the masses while hiding behind the guise of truth-seeking.

The only reason they kick and scream so loudly to prolong the vaccine shot is because they imagine some terrible fate will personally befall them if they accept the responsibility of vaccination.

This reeks of fear and dense ego-protection energy.

That’s your observation, nothing more. The truth here might also impact survival, although you guys can’t see it from your paradigm. 

Not imagining any terrible fate in my case (tho the vax could cause some bad things, yet if it’s meant to be, it’s good in the eyes of God), although I cannot speak for others. 

Why go straight to judging instead of opening up the conversation? 

[Mannyb]

52 minutes ago, spinderella said:

@Mannyb For the record, I do agree with your comments about msm, and I think what Leo's saying makes sense.  Doesn't matter what we think, really, since people believe their survival is at stake.  At least I think that's what he's saying

And it's kind of interesting just to notice that forums and media platforms that censor information are usually run by people who believe that survival is at stake from the virus.  So it makes sense that they "shoot you at the door", as Leo says.  Those who are more open to the discussion don't believe that survival is at stake, so they allow the conversation to continue.  It actually makes perfect sense. 

Yet here it ain’t about survival but fear. If it were purely about survival we’d be working on many other issues first and you know it as I do.

[Mannyb]

42 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

I'm from India. There are too many people around me who died. They were people with families, kids and in their mid 40s. I had the impression that only elderly people died. But that's not true. 

Many many people are dying in my country and it's not like they have to be too poor. Some of these people are well known celebrities. Yet their immunity levels aren't Strong enough to deal with this virus.

I'm in my mid 20s and yet my immunity is not too strong because of malnutrition in childhood and a lung infection that was never medicated/treated  when I was a kid. 

Covid is my greatest fear. I can give you a 100% guarantee that If I get Covid I won't survive at all.

That's why I haven't stepped out of my house in more than a year except for groceries and pharmacy.

The vaccination in my area hasn't started yet.

You possibly don't know a lot of things that are quite brutal and are happening around the world

 

You're born in a first world country so I can't blame you.

 

 

Great argument for vaccinating and isolating / protecting the most vulnerable people. 

[RendHeaven]

8 minutes ago, Mannyb said:

That’s your observation, nothing more. The truth here might also impact survival, although you guys can’t see it from your paradigm. 

You're scared.

8 minutes ago, Mannyb said:

Why go straight to judging instead of opening up the conversation? 

Yes, why not entertain idiocy while people drop dead lol. I see no harm~

[Mannyb]

4 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

You're scared.

Yes, why not entertain idiocy while people drop dead lol. I see no harm~

Maybe you are scared  ? Why is a conversation idiocy? With that attitude, certainly. I can’t really see much love from the way you speak… If you’re interested in discussing things calmly and lovingly I am here for you, otherwise farewell. Namaste ?? 

[Mannyb]

@Leo Gura People’s lives have been at stake for a long time, and nowadays mostly from preventable self inflicted reasons. I’m not suggesting we wait for perfection. Tens of millions of people are already dying from doubt, inaction, and other things. All I’m proposing is open, loving dialogue, that’s it.

[ZzzleepingBear]

Imagine the car industriy for a moment. Back in the 50's there was no seatbelt or airbags installed in the cars. But there was also alot less traffic or fast cars back then as well. And now, there is no question asked if airbags and seatbelts should or shouldn't be installed. There is probably more revenue in sales from safty stuff alone in the car industry per year, than that of the selling of the covid vaccine. So should anyone start question the legitimacy of the car industry because of the selling of safty precautions that has been forced on the consumer? I think not.

With that in mind, would you even want to buy a car for a bit cheaper if there was no airbags or seatbelts installed? Would a slightly reduced price be of higher value than that of your or maybe even your kids life if an accident where to happen?

The same questions applies to the vaccine. It's a precaution to what otherwise would have a much higher potential price collectively without having a vaccine. You don't actively have to fear the virus or the vaccine. So why not just take the vaccine if there is nothing to fear? You get your two shots and be done with it.

If you want greater controll in your life, then skipping the vaccine is not exactly a strong spot to hold on to and begin with. You can make alot of more impactful changes in your day to day living. But if all the worlds doctor and scientist advice you to taking a vaccine that is needed in a fullblown pandemic, chances are that they know a thing or two after all. You will be playing dice either way, if you completely ignore a virus that are spreading like wild fire. So a vaccine may not be such a bad idea, despite your own lack of expertice about it.

Some food for thought.

[Mannyb]

@ZzzleepingBear Not all doctors and scientists

[ZzzleepingBear]

Just now, Mannyb said:

@ZzzleepingBear Not all doctors and scientists

Fair enough. The majority then.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, RendHeaven said:

I observe that vaccine skeptics are not actually truth-oriented. You're being very kind here with the benefit of the doubt

In fact, they may even be more survival-oriented than the masses while hiding behind the guise of truth-seeking.

The only reason they kick and scream so loudly to prolong the vaccine shot is because they imagine some terrible fate will personally befall them if they accept the responsibility of vaccination.

This reeks of fear and dense ego-protection energy.

Of course, it's ignorance and selfishness and survival done poorly.

Conspiracy theories are an ignorant mind's idea of intelligence. 

[OneHandClap]

2 hours ago, Mannyb said:

Maybe you are scared  ? Why is a conversation idiocy? With that attitude, certainly. I can’t really see much love from the way you speak… If you’re interested in discussing things calmly and lovingly I am here for you, otherwise farewell. Namaste ?? 

You keep on with this attitude of "Hey, let's all be one love and talk about this rationally!"

The problem is that "one love" isn't what you think it is. Sometimes fierce love is called for. Sometimes love that you will even find harsh to your sense of love. 

Being staunchly anti-conspiracy theory is love. It is preserving innocent people from the lies and misinformation of a few fear-driven individuals who don't want to understand the science behind the vaccine itself. 

There is no sense in being kumbaya and cordial when people's lives are at stake, and plainly dying as you have seen in recent statistics about Republican states that refuse to take the vaccine. 

[Mannyb]

27 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

You keep on with this attitude of "Hey, let's all be one love and talk about this rationally!"

The problem is that "one love" isn't what you think it is. Sometimes fierce love is called for. Sometimes love that you will even find harsh to your sense of love. 

Being staunchly anti-conspiracy theory is love. It is preserving innocent people from the lies and misinformation of a few fear-driven individuals who don't want to understand the science behind the vaccine itself. 

There is no sense in being kumbaya and cordial when people's lives are at stake, and plainly dying as you have seen in recent statistics about Republican states that refuse to take the vaccine. 

We are one love my dear, and we can converse rationally if you would be so inclined.

Love can manifest itself in a more "fierce" way of course, I never said it can't be done.

Being "staunchly anti-conspiracy theory" is not necessarily love, on a relative level. It is not always preserving innocent people from lies/misinformation. You might have that opinion and I respect that, yet you're disrespecting conspiracy theorists in doing so. You're blindly assuming they are all wrong and claiming to know what the right science is.

I'm not suggesting we be kumbaya, yet I am begging you to consider the necessity of cordiality among us. 

Again, you base your statements on your assumptions, ideas, concepts, and beliefs. People's lives are at stake from many other causes and none of us knows for certain to have the 100% correct information on this matter, that's a fact. 

You think people are plainly dying and others think otherwise, you have your sources and others have theirs.

What I'm talking about is addressing each other in a loving, kind manner with deep respect and humility.

If you can do that then I invite you to have a meaningful, and respectful discussion. If not then I bid you adieu.

[OneHandClap]

14 minutes ago, Mannyb said:

We are one love my dear, and we can converse rationally if you would be so inclined.

Love can manifest itself in a more "fierce" way of course, I never said it can't be done.

Being "staunchly anti-conspiracy theory" is not necessarily love, on a relative level. It is not always preserving innocent people from lies/misinformation. You might have that opinion and I respect that, yet you're disrespecting conspiracy theorists in doing so. You're blindly assuming they are all wrong and claiming to know what the right science is.

I'm not suggesting we be kumbaya, yet I am begging you to consider the necessity of cordiality among us. 

Again, you base your statements on your assumptions, ideas, concepts, and beliefs. People's lives are at stake from many other causes and none of us knows for certain to have the 100% correct information on this matter, that's a fact. 

You think people are plainly dying and others think otherwise, you have your sources and others have theirs.

What I'm talking about is addressing each other in a loving, kind manner with deep respect and humility.

If you can do that then I invite you to have a meaningful, and respectful discussion. If not then I bid you adieu.

We are all one love, and yet Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and the KKK still existed.

Should we have held hands and been cordial with any of them? 

Now you understand why there is a fervent anti-conspiracy theorist attitude among rational people. 

[Mannyb]

52 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

We are all one love, and yet Hitler, Stalin, Mao, and the KKK still existed.

Should we have held hands and been cordial with any of them? 

Now you understand why there is a fervent anti-conspiracy theorist attitude among rational people. 

What’s rational in treating each other as if facing totalitarian dictators? These guys came in power precisely as a result of a lack of love and open, respectful communication. An increase in cordiality and civility won’t result in dictators coming into power, don’t you see how the opposite can be more conducive to that precise result?

I’m a simple man, I know that if we treat each other knowing we share our being the result is peace, and love.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Mannyb

[OneHandClap]

5 minutes ago, Mannyb said:

What’s rational in treating each other as if facing totalitarian dictators? These guys came in power precisely as a result of a lack of love. 

Yes, you're right. Similarly, the anti-vax movement did come into result by the same mechanisms. 

The answer, once that thing has manifested, is not to tolerate it... it is to call out how precisely backward and harmful it is.

Saying, "Oh, but Hitler being bad is just a belief... others have their sources that people aren't really dying in labor camps..." is exactly what many people did during the 30s and 40s. Extreme example? Sure. But it perfectly describes why trying to be "loving and rational" is a losing game with fringe ideologies. 

[AtheisticNonduality]

@spinderella You seem smart, but you need to remember certain things about the mechanics of how the virus would spread without the vaccine. If that makes sense.

[Mannyb]

20 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

Yes, you're right. Similarly, the anti-vax movement did come into result by the same mechanisms. 

How so? 

You can tolerate something, and criticize it at the same time. I am tolerating your position, for instance.
You think that position is backwards, others respectfully disagree. How can intolerance be more loving?

You believe your version of history, others believe something different, to make our minds the best we’ll do is open, loving conversations. What can possibly be wrong with that? That’s why debates are great, and channels such as Bret Weinstein’s Dark Horse Podcast, where both sides converse and people can make their minds. In such a case if you can present a decent argument and defend it well, the truth can get much closer to winning.

Whereas when dialogue is forbidden and labeled as conspiratorial, the truth is harder to discern and falsehood can grow in influence, which is precisely what we want to avoid on a civilizational level.

Others might have had different positions then, yet intolerance and creating division is never the answer. 
 

Being loving is never a losing game and always the answer, you’ll be able to understand that in due time. 

 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mannyb

[OneHandClap]

1 minute ago, Mannyb said:

How so? 

You can tolerate something, and criticize it at the same time. I am tolerating your position, for instance.
You think that position is backwards, others respectfully disagree. How can intolerance be more loving?

You believe your version of history, others believe something different, to make our minds the best we’ll do is open, loving conversations. What can possibly be wrong with that?

Others might have had different positions then, yet intolerance and creating division is never the answer. 
 

Being loving is never a losing game and always the answer, you’ll be able to understand that in due time. 

 

Your fundamental, recurring issue is that you still think holding hands and talking nicely is the answer to everything.

Love includes everything else within it. Love is not always the green-grass image you're promoting here.

Next time a stranger's about to get stabbed or mugged in front of you, you can try out your strategy of being "loving," by your definition of the word. Let us know how it goes. 

[Mannyb]

13 minutes ago, OneHandClap said:

Your fundamental, recurring issue is that you still think holding hands and talking nicely is the answer to everything.

Love includes everything else within it. Love is not always the green-grass image you're promoting here.

Next time a stranger's about to get stabbed or mugged in front of you, you can try out your strategy of being "loving," by your definition of the word. Let us know how it goes. 

Why do you insist on holding hands when I’ve never used that term in our conversation? I’m talking about loving, respectful dialogue.

 I said love and the realization of our shared being is the answer to everything and I stand by it, never said it was talking nicely and holding hands.

The recognition of love is discernible through respect, compassion, tolerance, and so forth… Although on an absolute level it includes everything, yet we can accurately say that Mao wasn’t acting out of love.

I’m not promoting love as a green grass image but as what it is, the recognition of our shared being.

When a stranger is getting stabbed, the loving reaction is to protect them, as we share our being.

Maybe where I’m trying to get this conversation is to advanced for you (and I mean it respectfully, no offense). 

As stated by myself earlier, if you’re not willing to have such open conversations then be it, you’re free to do so. 

Edited July 20, 2021 by Mannyb

[OneHandClap]

No offense taken. 

You said yourself that the compassionate response is to stop the stabbing. 

Likewise, the compassionate response to anti-vax movements is to stop giving them a platform.

Do we ask how the stabber is feeling? No. Do we ask why they want to stab? No. That comes after we've dismantled the problem.

You can think all you want about my level of understanding, but it doesn't change the root fact that giving conspiracy theories airtime and entertaining the delusion is absolutely detrimental to the welfare of those who are dying as we speak. The rest is just insanity apologism dressed up as "love."