Spiral dynamics and distrust of government

[spinderella]

Hey all, first off I don't want to turn this into a political debate.  Please.  

Generally speaking I've always been very socially liberal.  I don't mind paying a bit more taxes so that everyone can have a higher standard of living, and I'm in a high tax bracket.  

I discovered Jordan Peterson a few years ago, and realized my Blue Shadow and did contemplative work and took actions to integrate it.  Then I feel I developed a Green Shadow, and did contemplative work and took actions to integrate it.  

However, there are a few things that I've discovered over the past two years that really irk me about government:

• I'm concerned that the data put out there about what we should eat is hugely inaccurate.  I no longer believe that saturated fat is bad for us, and I believe that the food pyramid recommendations are completely based on "big agra" and "big food" objectives and have nothing to do with our health.  This infuriates me, since we now have an entire world with metabolic disease. 
• I'm very concerned about what we call "science".  I've watched Leo's entire series on deconstructing the myth of science, and I was actually mostly already on board before watching it.  I also have a degree in Biochemistry and have worked in healthcare for a decade, so it's not like I'm just a dummy when it comes to science.  I believe that science is an ideology, and that we can make "science" say whatever we want it to say just depending on the way we set up a study.  Science is not fact.   Every good scientist knows this.
• I'm also very concerned around the censorship around coronavirus.  I've seen a lot of deplatforming of physicians and scientists who question the mainstream narrative around how this has been treated, on issues ranging from the actual danger of the virus to vaccinations.  This bothers me, and makes me wonder why this information is being censored.  Also, since I already don't trust the government based on what they've said about food, I don't trust them when it comes to how to treat a virus, either. 

So it's not like I've blindly just said "the government is stupid".  I can understand that it can be a very Blue thing if you've never contemplated any of the higher stages and just landed on that conclusion.  But I have deeply contemplated those other ideas and have come back to the idea that I don't trust the government, and I am feeling conflicted about it.  I now have friends and stuff who think I'm ignorant or a nutcase because I don't trust the mainstream message.  But in actuality I've really deeply thought about these topics and have done hours of research and introspection, and this is the conclusion I've come to.  I don't think my position is ignorant, though I certainly wouldn't claim to have "figured it all out" or "know what's absolutely true".  I actually feel quite conflicted about it.  

On one hand, I do want to be "part of the solution".  But on the other hand, I totally don't buy into the mainstream media / government message.  

Can someone help me deconstruct this?  

[Leo Gura]

54 minutes ago, spinderella said:

However, there are a few things that I've discovered over the past two years that really irk me about government:

• I'm concerned that the data put out there about what we should eat is hugely inaccurate.  I no longer believe that saturated fat is bad for us, and I believe that the food pyramid recommendations are completely based on "big agra" and "big food" objectives and have nothing to do with our health.  This infuriates me, since we now have an entire world with metabolic disease.

Of course this is true, but so what?

The nutrition is a cutting edge field and it takes decades for that information to get integrated into mainstream culture. Your time horizon is too narrow. It will take another 50 years for that knowledge to percolate into the lowest common denominator of the mainstream.

Also, all social organizations have corruption within them, as all individuals do too. So, yeah, there should be no surprise that government institutions are corrupted by corporate lobbying. What would be surprising is if that wasn't the case.

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• I'm very concerned about what we call "science".  I've watched Leo's entire series on deconstructing the myth of science, and I was actually mostly already on board before watching it.  I also have a degree in Biochemistry and have worked in healthcare for a decade, so it's not like I'm just a dummy when it comes to science.  I believe that science is an ideology, and that we can make "science" say whatever we want it to say just depending on the way we set up a study.  Science is not fact.   Every good scientist knows this.

Again, so what?

There is corruption and ignorance within science as there is in all human institutions simply because all humans are corrupt.

Science will improve over time.

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• I'm also very concerned around the censorship around coronavirus.  I've seen a lot of deplatforming of physicians and scientists who question the mainstream narrative around how this has been treated, on issues ranging from the actual danger of the virus to vaccinations.  This bothers me, and makes me wonder why this information is being censored.  Also, since I already don't trust the government based on what they've said about food, I don't trust them when it comes to how to treat a virus, either. 

What you have to understand is that survival will ALWAYS trump every other concern within society.

Free speech is only a fig leaf. There has never been free speech. Your speech is only free to the extent that it does not seriously endanger the survival of the majority of humans. As soon as it starts you, all bets are off, and you should expect that and even appreciate it to some degree because if your survival was truly endanger you would not give a damn about free speech. Free speech is a luxury of people who are comfortable in their survival.

If I put a gun to your child's head, you will stop caring about free speech. Well, Covid is that for many people.

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and have come back to the idea that I don't trust the government, and I am feeling conflicted about it.  I now have friends and stuff who think I'm ignorant or a nutcase because I don't trust the mainstream message.

On one hand, I do want to be "part of the solution".  But on the other hand, I totally don't buy into the mainstream media / government message.  

Can someone help me deconstruct this?  

Of course the government should not be blindly trusted, as no institution should. But you have to be nuanced in your skepticism and not let it turn into cynicism and apathy because in that case you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

The key that you might be missing is simply that YOU ARE GOVERNMENT! Stop making government something "other". Government will only be as good as we make it. If you sit on your ass and do nothing, then that is what makes government suck the most. You can't create something loving and conscious by sitting on your ass. It takes constructive work.

The biggest reason our government sucks today is because people have gotten so fat and lazy that they just expect government to automatically be great without taking any personal responsibility or making any sacrifice. If our founding fathers held this attitude there would be no country at all! We would be savages raping each other.

When you say you distrust the government what you're really saying is: I distrust myself.

[spinderella]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course this is true, but so what?

The nutrition is a cutting edge field and it takes decades for that information to get integrated into mainstream culture. Your time horizon is too narrow. It will take another 50 years for that knowledge to percolate into the lowest common denominator of the mainstream.

Also, all social organizations have corruption within them, as all individuals do too. So, yeah, there should be no surprise that government institutions are corrupted by corporate lobbying. What would be surprising is if that wasn't the case.

Again, so what?

There is corruption and ignorance within science as there is in all human institutions simply because all humans are corrupt.

Science will improve over time.

What you have to understand is that survival will ALWAYS trump every other concern within society.

Yeah, your "so what?" questions are valid.  Really, so what nothing.  It doesn't really matter, information will get out to the masses when it does, they'll believe it or fight it as they choose, and that's kind of it.  

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Free speech is only a fig leaf. There has never been free speech. Your speech is only free to the extent that it does not seriously endanger the survival of the majority of humans. As soon as it starts you, all bets are off, and you should expect that and even appreciate it to some degree because if your survival was truly endanger you would not give a damn about free speech. Free speech is a luxury of people who are comfortable in their survival.

If I put a gun to your child's head, you will stop caring about free speech. Well, Covid is that for many people.

I guess this is true, and always has been true.  And I can see that some people really do feel like Covid is a death sentence.  If I'm honest I think where I'm getting tripped up is that I'm judging people who actually believe covid is a death sentence to the healthy, young majority because I'm attached to my viewpoint that the data pretty clearly shows that it's not.  And when people (like my friends) try to get me to see their point of view, which I believe is closed-minded and sheep-like, I have some kind of emotional reaction.  I don't show it (I don't think), but it's still there.  I got into a conversation with a friend last night because he thinks that anyone who doesn't have the vaccine is selfish and doesn't care about other people, and that they should be forced to get it.  I respectfully disagreed, but now I'm pretty sure he thinks I'm an anti-science nutcase who doesn't care about the well-being of the population, which isn't true.  Maybe on some level I just want people to agree with me, and I'm uncomfortable if they don't.

27 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Of course the government should not be blindly trusted, as no institution should. But you have to be nuanced in your skepticism and not let it turn into cynicism and apathy because in that case you are not part of the solution, you are part of the problem.

The key that you might be missing is simply that YOU ARE GOVERNMENT! Stop making government something "other". Government will only be as good as we make it. If you sit on your ass and do nothing, then that is what makes government suck the most. You can't create something loving and conscious by sitting on your ass. It takes constructive work.

The biggest reason our government sucks today is because people have gotten so fat and lazy that they just expect government to automatically be great without taking any personal responsibility or making any sacrifice. If our founding fathers held this attitude there would be no country at all! We would be savages raping each other.

Yeah, I think I might be missing some necessary nuance in my skepticism.  What is your perspective on it?

And nope, I definitely don't feel like "I am government" in this moment lol.  Nor do I really feel like "I am" the friend who I spoke with last night, though this is easier for me to see.

I think I'd like to evolve my position so I don't feel so attached to it, or maybe I'm just attached to the fact that people don't agree with me.  Basically, I feel "hooked" or "attached" in some way and I'd like to resolve that.  

Thanks for your feedback   

[Leo Gura]

11 minutes ago, spinderella said:

I'm judging people who actually believe covid is a death sentence to the healthy, young majority

Well, notice that that is your self-bias.

The fact is that Covid has killed millions of people around the world within a single year, and would have killed millions more if not for a vaccine.

Just sit and contemplate that.

Why do you dismiss the value of 1 million+ lives just because you feel young and healthy and invincible?

You don't consider their survival important. Yet if the shoe was on the other foot, you would. Why should your ability to spread toxic skepticism be worth more than 1 million lives?

The truth is that it's not worth more. Which is why you lost the argument to reality. See, life has a higher intelligence than your ego-mind because it's not only looking out for young healthy people like you.

The secret to understanding reality is learning to see that it's intelligence is much greater than that of your human mind.

[spinderella]

19 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Well, notice that that is your self-bias.

The fact is that Covid has killed millions of people around the world within a single year, and would have killed millions more if not for a vaccine.

Just sit and contemplate that.

Why do you dismiss the value of 1 million+ lives just because you feel young and healthy and invincible?

You don't consider their survival important. Yet if the shoe was on the other foot, you would. Why should your ability to spread toxic skepticism be worth more than 1 million lives?

Because I don't believe that Covid actually killed 1 milion+ people, because I know that the way disease was coded in hospitals in the US claimed covid as the cause of death even if the patient died of cancer.  I know that sounds conspiratorial, but since I work in the hospital I feel I've seen that happen firsthand, and there was definitely a reimbursement incentive to include covid on a death certificate.  That part isn't conspiracy, it's well-known that reimbursement drives care and diagnosis in the US.  I don't like that I believe that, I'd rather not.  But how do I just refute what I literally have seen?

Or if you look at the year over year mortality data in Canada, for example.  You can't even see a blip in 2020, it looks right on-trend.  

And I don't trust the "scientists" who used "algorithms" to determine excess-deaths from covid.  I want raw data, 2019 total global or US deaths, and 2020 total global or US deaths.  This data seems difficult to find.  All you can find are the algorithms used to determine how many people "should have" died in 2020.   

This is the loop I'm stuck in....

I guess that any number of people dying from any cause should be a concern, I just don't know why we're so focused on stopping Covid at all costs when we could spend all that government money and all this media awareness on stopping eating garbage food, when heart disease has been the #1 cause of death for a long time now.

Edited July 19, 2021 by spinderella

[spinderella]

45 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Why do you dismiss the value of 1 million+ lives just because you feel young and healthy and invincible?

You don't consider their survival important. Yet if the shoe was on the other foot, you would. Why should your ability to spread toxic skepticism be worth more than 1 million lives?

I actually do value the lives of people who aren't healthy and young, however I am annoyed that we've spent all this money and time on a vaccine instead of helping people stop eating processed garbage and get off the pharmaceuticals that make them susceptible to the virus in the first place.  I think that's where I'm coming from.  

Edit, after browsing the forum on this topic, I don't understand why threads about the vaccine get locked.  So I'll drop it, cause it seems like it's heading into that realm, but I would really just like to know how to move through my current mindset into a more peaceful place.  

Edited July 19, 2021 by spinderella

[Mannyb]

@spinderella When people are Confortable with the way things are because they have access to a relative sense of security, drugs, shelter, “organic” food, they won’t really care to question things that much. In a sense, you can call that the stage orange shadow, comfort. Many had to see a relative get screwed by an adverse reaction to question things for instance (and I know a few where even that wasn’t enough), it’s simply survival at its finest if you will. They’ll eat sugar, not move, sleep poorly and yet require a test from healthy people.

Had they lost their business, or gotten fucked by a multi national, had first hand insight like you, gotten content deplatformed, research funds removed, etc… they would at least start considering alternative povs.

Edited July 19, 2021 by Mannyb

[Leo Gura]

@spinderella  I've heard this story about not trusting the statistics from my own doctors.

But it's bullshit. Have you seen the corpses? There were so many corpses last year the morgues were overflowing.

Have you seen how many corpses are piling up in India?

 

This shit cannot be denied.

Without a vaccine, 10s of millions would be dead and the entire world economy would come to halt. So watch out what silly ideological games you're playing. To your mind it's just a game, but for millions of people this is a matter of life and death.

[Mannyb]

What about civilian reporting such as this link below?

https://odysee.com/@SixthSense-Truth-Search-Labs:0/india3:f

In a truly scientific effort I’d say it’s only fair to look into other sources.

Also, we know the bias from msm, now what could be the bias from these independent sources? Conspiracy thinking just for the sake of it, why not look into their footage? Why can they not be found on YouTube? Why not trust them? 
It could be deemed dangerous but again letting people speak leads to conversations and the possibility of debunking whatever is not true faster and make sure we can all agree and move forward as one love ❤️ 
 

Let’s have an open conversation about this. 
 

@Leo Gura Are you suggesting we just blindly trust the msm? I don’t want to jump to conclusions, but how do we make our minds when know that the media has been lying to us on / omitting so many issues? And know that these Pharma participate in acts of devilry. How have you come to your conclusion, for instance? How can we work on discernment? 
 

So far the answers myself and other questioners have gotten on this forum is basically fuck off, don’t spread conspiracy theories. Which is counter productive from the majority’s perspective, as it only creates division. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Mannyb

[Jonas Krieger]

7 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Without a vaccine, 10s of millions would be dead and the entire world economy would come to halt. So watch out what silly ideological games you're playing. To your mind it's just a game, but for millions of people this is a matter of life and death.

Yes COVID is a real threat.

But it is also true, that restrictions/mediacoverage/public opinion is used by lobbying agents to benefit from it and strenghten status quo in the existing power structures. The vaccines most likely wont have any (severe, long-term) negative effects, but:

1.) Pfizer alone is expected to make 100s of billions (there were no research and developing costs for them)

2.) it is not accessible for developing countries, even though, according to their mantras there should as many vaccinations as possible

3.) They are used to divide people, further isolate and pressure the people which are not completely agreeing with everything the authorities say (some of the Anti-Vaxxers are even more delusional than people watching TV 24/7). See what happens in France for example..

 

I am just annoyed worried by the indifference people and the public show towards any measures oficials take and how they are reasoning it. I am vaccinated btw

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Mannyb said:

So far the answers myself and other questioners have gotten on this forum is basically fuck off, don’t spread conspiracy theories

That's how survival works.

At some point you gotta stop philosophizing when people's lives are at stake and action is required.

Survival forces us to take action with imperfect information. If you are gonna wait for perfect information before you act, you're as good as dead.

What you're not factoring in is that inaction and doubt can kill tens of millions of people. Even if your doubt is epistemically valid. Life doesn't give a fuck about your epistemic questions, it will kill you while you're navel gazing. Which is why most people eschew philosophy.

Now, yoy might say, "But I care more about philosophy and truth than survival!" Okay, but your fellow humans don't. So be prepared for them to overpower you. And maybe even kill you. Just because you are foolish enough to take survival for granted does not mean others will go along with you.

You are not appreciating how fucking serious survival is. It's a game of life and death. Nothing else matters if you're not alive.

You see... if you come knocking on my door with philosophy questions while there is a zombie apocolypse, I will shoot you first, then philosophize about it later over dinner.

So don't be a dodo bird.

[Leo Gura]

7 minutes ago, nuwu said:

@Leo Gura But how do you tell the difference between art and survival? How would you know if God preserves X or Y art branch because it's pretty or whatever reason?

The unfoldment of reality itself is the answer.

Whatever unfolds is always the highest Good from God's POV. This is tautological.

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If the purpose of existence is self-annihilation, why shouldn't I just kill myself right now?

The purpose of existence is self-realization.

You can't kill yourself since you are Eternal and you cannot not exist. Self-annihilation is literally impossible. All you can do is morph the dream.

But, still, don't expect your fellow humans to know this. They will still act as if death is the realist thing ever.

[RendHeaven]

29 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Now, you might say, "But I care more about philosophy and truth than survival!"

I observe that vaccine skeptics are not actually truth-oriented. You're being very kind here with the benefit of the doubt

In fact, they may even be more survival-oriented than the masses while hiding behind the guise of truth-seeking.

The only reason they kick and scream so loudly to prolong the vaccine shot is because they imagine some terrible fate will personally befall them if they accept the responsibility of vaccination.

This reeks of fear and dense ego-protection energy.

[Preety_India]

2 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

The only reason they kick and scream so loudly to prolong the vaccine shot is because they imagine some terrible fate will personally befall them if they accept the responsibility of vaccination.

Or maybe they're too scaredy of the needle but don't wanna admit that!

 

Even if that's the case, it's too out of ego protection from fear.

 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Preety_India

[spinderella]

3 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

@spinderella  I've heard this story about not trusting the statistics from my own doctors.

But it's bullshit. Have you seen the corpses? There were so many corpses last year the morgues were overflowing.

Have you seen how many corpses are piling up in India?

This shit cannot be denied.

Without a vaccine, 10s of millions would be dead and the entire world economy would come to halt. So watch out what silly ideological games you're playing. To your mind it's just a game, but for millions of people this is a matter of life and death.

Fair, I will check those videos out.  But I feel like I'll believe it when I see it, or when my friends with families in India tell me their firsthand experience of what they have seen.  For example, one of the doctors I work with (albeit he is a doctor and probably comes from a privileged family) told me his entire family, who live in India, and are mostly elderly, already had Covid and are fine, going about life as usual. 

I feel like I don't know what to believe, but I think what you're basically saying about survival is that it doesn't really MATTER what I believe - since the masses are afraid to the point where (they believe) it impacts their survival, I can either get on board with the grand scheme or be overtaken.  That actually makes sense to me.  It gives me a place to hold onto my personal beliefs and skepticism while accepting that what society wants is what they will get, and ultimately whatever happens is what God "wants", because, that's the only thing that's possible anyway.    

[spinderella]

@Mannyb For the record, I do agree with your comments about msm, and I think what Leo's saying makes sense.  Doesn't matter what we think, really, since people believe their survival is at stake.  At least I think that's what he's saying

And it's kind of interesting just to notice that forums and media platforms that censor information are usually run by people who believe that survival is at stake from the virus.  So it makes sense that they "shoot you at the door", as Leo says.  Those who are more open to the discussion don't believe that survival is at stake, so they allow the conversation to continue.  It actually makes perfect sense. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by spinderella

[spinderella]

57 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Or maybe they're too scaredy of the needle but don't wanna admit that!

 

Even if that's the case, it's too out of ego protection from fear.

 

And we can't forget the mass fear of Covid itself, too.  

Fear is everywhere.  

I prefer to think that viruses are natural occurrences, humanity will be fine, we'll adapt, our immune systems are strong, the virus will mutate and we'll continue to adapt.  I don't think there's too much fear in my thinking, personally, but I'm getting the impression that people think I'm an asshole because I'm not afraid.  It's not that I don't care about people - I just believe that we're stronger than we think. 

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, spinderella said:

And we can't forget the mass fear of Covid itself, too.  

Fear is everywhere.  

I prefer to think that viruses are natural occurrences, humanity will be fine, we'll adapt, our immune systems are strong, the virus will mutate and we'll continue to adapt.  

 

I'm from India. There are too many people around me who died. They were people with families, kids and in their mid 40s. I had the impression that only elderly people died. But that's not true. 

Many many people are dying in my country and it's not like they have to be too poor. Some of these people are well known celebrities. Yet their immunity levels aren't Strong enough to deal with this virus.

I'm in my mid 20s and yet my immunity is not too strong because of malnutrition in childhood and a lung infection that was never medicated/treated  when I was a kid. 

Covid is my greatest fear. I can give you a 100% guarantee that If I get Covid I won't survive at all.

That's why I haven't stepped out of my house in more than a year except for groceries and pharmacy.

The vaccination in my area hasn't started yet.

You possibly don't know a lot of things that are quite brutal and are happening around the world

 

You're born in a first world country so I can't blame you.

 

 

[spinderella]

12 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

 

I'm from India. There are too many people around me who died. They were people with families, kids and in their mid 40s. I had the impression that only elderly people died. But that's not true. 

Many many people are dying in my country and it's not like they have to be too poor. Some of these people are well known celebrities. Yet their immunity levels aren't Strong enough to deal with this virus.

I'm in my mid 20s and yet my immunity is not too strong because of malnutrition in childhood and a lung infection that was never medicated/treated  when I was a kid. 

Covid is my greatest fear. I can give you a 100% guarantee that If I get Covid I won't survive at all.

That's why I haven't stepped out of my house in more than a year except for groceries and pharmacy.

The vaccination in my area hasn't started yet.

You possibly don't know a lot of things that are quite brutal and are happening around the world

 

You're born in a first world country so I can't blame you.

 

 

Fair, I am born in a first world country so I don't know what it's like. 

Anyway, I hope you stay safe.  Thanks for your perspective.

Edited July 19, 2021 by spinderella

[Milos Uzelac]

My father has resistance, fear and skepticism about the vaccination and virus out of this very reason because he feels its government imposed and propagated in order for it to pay-off for the vaccines that it bought and help transnationals like Pfizer and other bio-tech companies who them made the deal with them to make record profits. He does not see the deaths here where I live to be enough to justify this government imposition of power and prolonged lock downs that shut down the events he used to attend and habits that he used to do. He sees it as a overblown conspiracy and opportunity by the government and the party that controls it here to solidfy its power here through fear of overblowing Covid and to advertise vaccines and vaccination in order justify for why they bought them in such a quantity. 

I realise this is a conspiracist reasoning born out of fear and irritation of endangering one's habits and survival through seeing it as a planned government stripping on one's usual rights and privileges here in order for a group holding to fortify its claim on power.  And focusing exclusively on one's self irritation and not focusing and caring about the state of others in the country. Should probably watch the how conspiracy theories work to understand my father's psychology better in the last sixteen months. 

Edited July 19, 2021 by Milos Uzelac