Some thoughts about reality and my worthlessness, etc.

[Alysssa]

You said true, we are selfish. You are selfish and I'm selfish. You don't care about my problems, are you? I'm a stranger, do my problems really bother you? No. But it's not a big deal. One can be selfish and still care about other people and love them deeply. Empathy and epathy can exist together, it's not black and white.

You labelled selfish as a bad thing but it's actually a relative thing depends on the situation.

Mother have to be selfish in order to rise a child, if she won't take care of herself how can she take care of her helpless child?

People have to be selfish in order to survive, and so any other living organism. It's an surviving mechanism, if you're not selfish enough you won't survive. 

You probably feel lonely because you alienated to yourself, if you are alienated to yourself you'll always feel lonely no matter how many people will be around you.

Many people in today's society feel lonely, I know, it sucks and it shouldn't be that but it's not that bad if you are a friend of yourself rather than enemy.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Blackhawk]

25 minutes ago, Alysssa said:

You said true, we are selfish. You are selfish and I'm selfish. You don't care about my problems, are you? I'm a stranger, do my problems really bother you? No. But it's not a big deal. One can be selfish and still care about other people and love them deeply. Empathy and epathy can exist together, it's not black and white.

I care about your problems, but unfortunately I probably can't help you because I lack the required skills.

25 minutes ago, Alysssa said:

You probably feel lonely because you alienated to yourself, if you are alienated to yourself you'll always feel lonely no matter how many people will be around you.

Many people in today's society feel lonely, I know, it sucks and it shouldn't be that but it's not that bad if you are a friend of yourself rather than enemy.

I don't know about that. We'll never find out whether your hypothesis is true or not since I will be alone as long as I live, and then I might also be alone after death. But I've heard that everyone gets a spirit guide helper when one dies, but it's just a temporary helper who helps during the death process.

 

Yes you're probably right about the thing about selfishness.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Alysssa]

1 hour ago, Blackhawk said:

 

I don't know about that. We'll never find out whether your hypothesis is true or not since I will be alone as long as I live, and then I might also be alone after death. But I've heard that everyone gets a spirit guide helper when one dies, but it's just a temporary helper who helps during the death process.

My dear, You decided that you'll be alone all your life. So you'll be. You sound so confident saying that, I wish you could use this confidence for healthier beliefs.

You say so confidently that you worthless but why aren't you use in the same confident to say you're worth?

Why do you have so much confidence in your negative beliefs? 

If the negativity and the positivity are your children, what you are doing now is to spoil the negativity and neglect the positivity. You should do the opposite. The negativity is the child that will destroy you while the positivity is the child that will empower you. You are spoiling the moster who slowly destroying you.

Maybe deep inside you want to be in this pitty warm place protected from taking risks and protected from taking real responsibility for your life and I'm totally understand you because it's so easy and affordable. Maybe you don't really want to change, maybe you don't want people to comfort you because it may change your world view which can be very intimidating to your comfortable pitty narrow world view now.

But it's only my assumptions, you are the only one who knows the true about yourself.

 

 

[Blackhawk]

@Alysssa Because it's true that I will be alone, because I'm worthless.

I would have to somehow lie to myself that I wont be alone. I don't think I can do that.

2 hours ago, Alysssa said:

you are the only one who knows the true about yourself.

Yes.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Blackhawk

[snowyowl]

@Blackhawk  

Looking for happiness in external things like girlfriends and money is fair enough, but there's also the internal approach, introspection. After all, why does being alone feel lonely and sad? Not everyone does, there are hermits who can live happily in a cave by themselves but most of us aren't like that. 

Where is the sadness coming from? We can all introspect for ourselves, but I'd say this is your heart, inner child (whatever name you prefer) reaching out for emotional intimacy. But it keeps coming up against this hard brick wall of so-called rational beliefs like 'I'm unworthy', 'Nobody likes me', 'I'll always be alone', 'Nothing works, I'll always be unhappy like this'. 

Your inner child which just wants to play and have fun with others, is being suppressed by this wall of negativity. When you feel sad, how does it show? Can you cry, cry in front of other people? That's one way to release the dam and get sympathy and communication going. 

That's why I suggested trying therapy again, even if you have a disorder surely a small amount of improvement is better than none. There's nothing wrong with your inner heart, your feelings, imo it's the system of interface with the outside world which needs a bit of scaffolding - like the input/output devices on your computer. But like I said earlier, I'm not a psychologist so just my opinion. 

Also you care about your parents' feelings so you're worthy to them. Haven't you had good times of love and fun with them in the past? 

Edited July 26, 2021 by snowyowl
spelling

[Blackhawk]

@snowyowl The thing is that those who say things like "happiness comes from within" and "you don't need anyone if you just love yourself" aren't as lonely as I am. So they are just talking shit, imo. It's extra ridiculous when Leo says it. Because he's a freaking celebrity, with hundreds of thousands of worshippers and a million women who want to marry him etc. etc.

 

Some music can make me cry a bit. And women can make me cry a lot, but that's only during online chatting, and it was a long time ago when it happened last time, because I haven't chatted seriously with anyone in a long time.

I don't meet people so I don't know if I could cry infront of people.

[4201]

6 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

I would have to somehow lie to myself that I wont be alone. I don't think I can do that.

Nobody is asking you to create a belief of positivity on top of your belief of negativity, but to notice that your pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality. If you can fully notice what that pain is (through feeling it) you can let go of it and be free from it.

No other thought will ever work to dispel an assumption you are already assuming. The only way out is to feel and the only thing that holds you back from feeling is the idea that it won't work.

Edited July 26, 2021 by 4201

[Blackhawk]

@4201 Saying "pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality" is a very easy thing to say for someone who at the moment of saying it is comfortable.

But there's ways how you could investigate whether that idea is true or not.

For example someone could pull all your teeth out with pliers, pull your fingernails off, and drill holes on your knee-caps and on your skull (shallow ones so the brain doesn't get damaged which would most likely lead to unconsciousness.)

Would you at that moment still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality?

Or if you just meant psychological pain:

If your biggest love ever (wife and soulmate) has been having foursome gangbangs with 3 of your best friends several times per week for 7 years. Would you still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality?

Or like in my case: total loneliness for life, not a single friend or anything, not even online, not liked by anyone, forget everything about romance and love, no one to communicate with, no hope of it ever getting better. Prayed to God and angels and what not for any kind of company or for a sign or just anything, but nothing. And tried all help and have tried to improve etc. but nothing has worked. Completely abandoned by everyone and everything, even by God. (Not abandoned by parents though, but that doesn't count, the parents are just annoying.)

Note that you cannot understand how it feels unless you have actually been in exactly that situation, which you haven't, none of you have. Would you still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality?

 

Sorry if I sounded rude, vulgar or something but I like to investigate every claim in depth. Does it really hold water?

Edited July 26, 2021 by Blackhawk

[4201]

40 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

@4201 Saying "pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality" is a very easy thing to say for someone who at the moment of saying it is comfortable.

But there's ways how you could investigate whether that idea is true or not.

For example someone could pull all your teeth out with pliers, pull your fingernails off, and drill small holes on your knee-caps and on your skull (shallow ones so the brain doesn't get damaged which would most likely lead to unconsciousness.)

Would you at that moment still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality?

At that moment, pain and suffering would equal attachment to my body. If I was 100% unattached to my body, I wouldn't suffer what happens to it. 99.9% of people like their body and thus don't want their body to be destroyed or damaged and so for most people, destroying their body would make them suffer great pain.

The sensations themselves of skin being cut, burned or whatever are not in themselves pain. When you get a vaccine is it intrinsically painful? Perhaps for people who are not used to vaccines but at least for me, when I take a vaccine I do not interpret the sensation I receive as pain, because I fully understand it and I know the body I'm attached too isn't being destroyed. Peter Ralston did the same experiment by refusing to take an anesthetic while having a root canal treatment.

Some people are at this point, but you don't need to be at this level of "no belief" to go about your life.

The analogy may be easier to make with a kid and his favorite toy. If you break his toy, he will suffer but only because he is attached to it. The kid wouldn't suffer if you were to break another toy. But you are the one who decides to attach itself to a body or to any other thing.

If you suffer emotionally, it's because you have attachments and aren't OK with the current situation. You'd like it to be some other way and you believe this way is not OK. Stop believing that and there will be no more pain.

40 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Or if you just meant psychological pain:

If your biggest love ever (wife and soulmate) has been having foursome gangbangs with 3 of your best friends several times per week for 7 years. Would you still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality?

In the case of being cheated on, pain would equal attachment to that person being "mine" and no one's else. If I let go of my need for them to be mine, no more suffering. If you literally don't care about it, it can't affect you. Caring about it is not "reality", you are the one caring about it and making your life painful by continuing to judge it as painful.

Again, 99% of people want stable relationships with other people so most people would suffer this. And it's perfectly OK to feel pain. If you feel it fully you can then move on. Even if this "psychological pain" scenario nothing is lost, you still have yourself and now you have more space in your life to create truer relationships.

 

40 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Or like in my case: total loneliness for life, not a single friend or anything, not even online, not liked by anyone, forget everything about romance and love, no one to communicate with, no hope of it ever getting better. Prayed to God and angels and what not for any kind of company or for a sign or just anything, but nothing. And tried all help and have tried to improve etc. but nothing has worked. Completely abandoned by everyone and everything, even by God. (Not abandoned by parents though, but that doesn't count, the parents are just annoying.)

Note that you cannot understand how it feels unless you have actually been in exactly that situation, which you haven't. Would you still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality?

Sorry if I sounded rude or something but I like to investigate every claim in depth. Does it really hold water?

In your case, you seem deeply attached to the need of having friends. This attachment makes you suffer and because you suffer all the time, it makes it less fun for people IRL to hang out with you, thus creating a cycle of loneliness.

Breaking the cycle means no longer being attached to this idea. It's silly to be attached to something you don't even have and can only lead to constant pain. You may ask what is "being attached" what is "caring about X", how does one let go of those attachments? You aren't actually attached to them, it's just thoughts. All you need to do to be free is focus on something else (likely creating the results you want or even focus on breathing).

Most people on this forum has been in terribly painful situations and got out of them. If I never had experienced pain I wouldn't have much to say about it.

Nothing's rude about your questions, you are trying to see if my claim holds in all situation. The answer is yes, even for physical pain or any type of pain. No attachment = no pain. In his book, Peter Ralston goes in depth in explaining the why and how of pain. Pain is a thought, no matter which type of pain.

At the end of the day you don't need EXTREME 100% detachment to your entire body and everything (we call this enlightenment). But you can get detached from the need of having friends and a social life and I believe this detachment is necessary for you to be effective at meeting people and making friends.

Edited July 26, 2021 by 4201

[Blackhawk]

Or your children getting assraped by 20 dirty homeless people with AIDS for 12 hours non-stop, and after that they torture your children to death.

 

@4201 Do you really think that that burning monk didn't have pain and wasn't suffering. Or Peter Ralston when he did the root canal thing.

Ok so you still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality.

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in you.

I don't want to discuss this specific topic about pain and suffering being a belief anymore. Clearly I am right and you are wrong so there's nothing more to discuss here.

Edited July 26, 2021 by Blackhawk

[4201]

27 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Or your children getting assraped by 20 dirty homeless people with AIDS for 12 hours non-stop, and after that they torture your children to death.

Not suffering does not mean inaction. You can still save people out of terrible situations by love without neediness. I'd save a stranger from a dangerous situation but not because I suffer, just because it feels good to help someone. 

But whether you suffer this situation or not depends entirely on if you care or not. Of course 99.999% human beings would care about protecting their children, that is not the question.

27 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

@4201 Do you really think that that burning monk didn't have pain and wasn't suffering.

"Suffering" doesn't show on the outside. The monk certainly was feeling the sensations of his body burning but he was sufficiently in control of his thought to not run around screaming. Whether he felt suffering is a question of whether he was fully enlightened or not, which is sincerely his own discretion. I am not enlightened and I suffer from times to times. But understanding the mechanics of it means I can break free anytime I want by simply sitting in meditation for long enough.

27 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Ok so you still think that pain and suffering is a belief and has nothing to do with reality.

Of course! Suffering is a judgement of reality as being bad. No reality is bad in itself. The examples you bring are extreme realities which are bad for most human beings. The whole point of pain is to survive as a living thing, it's survival. If you don't care about surviving there is no pain. Rocks do not feel pain because they aren't machines trying to replicate themselves.

27 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

I have to say I'm a bit disappointed in you.

I don't want to discuss this specific topic about pain and suffering being a belief anymore. Clearly I am right and you are wrong so there's nothing more to discuss here.

Yet your POV brings you constant suffering. If you don't want to talk about it fine but someday you might be sick enough of suffering to motivate you to see things as they are.

Edited July 26, 2021 by 4201

[Alysssa]

How old are you? 

Don't you idealise too much having a GF and friends?

Do you really believe that having a GF or bunch of friends will make you happy? It's not that simple, managing relationships requires work and patience.

You have parents, you are so fucking lucky to have parents, you have two parents. You are not completely alone. 

Now you don't appreciate it because you are young and healthy, you've got so used to their presence that you don't even consider them as people.

You have gold (yourself, family, body, roof, where to sleep, food) and you bothering yourself about some cheap metal (social shallow life).

Your way of thinking is very typical for depressed people.

There are good videos Leo made that might help you feel better, the first is my favourite "successful people aren't happy"

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Blackhawk]

@Alysssa 32.

[Alysssa]

12 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

@Alysssa 32.

Have you experienced depression episodes before?

Edited July 27, 2021 by Alysssa

[Blackhawk]

42 minutes ago, Alysssa said:

Have you experienced depression episodes before?

I think I have always been depressed. Or maybe I wasn't depressed when I was a kid, but I don't remember much from my childhood.

Easy for you to say that it's not important to have any social life whatsoever, since you have a huge social life. It pisses me off a bit when people who have a big social life say "you don't need a social life".

We are social animals, I think loneliness is the biggest contributing factor to depression, and loneliness is also bad for the physical health. Studies have been made about this.

Anyone who would be in my shoes would be depressed. I can guarantee that. Actually probably most people would've committed suicide.

[Alysssa]

10 hours ago, Blackhawk said:

I think I have always been depressed. Or maybe I wasn't depressed when I was a kid, but I don't remember much from my childhood.

Easy for you to say that it's not important to have any social life whatsoever, since you have a huge social life. It pisses me off a bit when people who have a big social life say "you don't need a social life".

We are social animals, I think loneliness is the biggest contributing factor to depression, and loneliness is also bad for the physical health. Studies have been made about this.

Anyone who would be in my shoes would be depressed. I can guarantee that. Actually probably most people would've committed suicide.

I think you need to begin with curing your depression, work on your negative beliefs because it's your weak spot as I see. If you really want to be happy you need strong and healthy mind.

Also, you probably have some past traumas that still controling you unconsciously. The fact that you don't remember much of your childhood says that you probably repressed it due to traumatic things that hurted you.

It's very important to figure it out and heal your traumas because if you won't they will always control you and distort your reality.

Your negative thoughts and you believing in those negative thoughts is simply bullshiting yourself.

I don't say it's not important to have social life, for some people it's important but it's not have to be the source of your happiness at your age, because people come and go and if your happiness depends on people or other external things you always be bothered by it because you have no control on external things. External things are unexpected.

I actually have no social life at all and I'm happy. I tend to feel lonely with most of the people, not because I hate people but I prefer deep connection with people rather than shallow connection and it's not that easy to find it in my everyday life. But it's not bothering me because I'm not attached to the idea of having friends and having boyfriend. If it will enter to my life it will be fine but if not I'll stay feel good because I'm a friend of myself, I love life, I passionate about it and I'm curious to see my full potential so I'm constantly learning new things, skills and I'm also creating a lot, I see myself as an artist, I draw, paint and write poetry. My source of happiness is within me. Of course I have bad periods time to time but they are natural. Every person experience bad episodes and no one is 100% happy all time. The trick is to get up when you fall.

Don't get me wrong, my life wasn't always good and easy, I came from broken house with mentally ill poor parents, I got hurt by people many times since childhood, raped, bullied, I had very bad episodes in my life, social anxiety, low self esteem, depression, suicidal thoughts etc. Many years I believed that I'm suck and something really fucked up with me, in my core. But I had the will to improve myself and my life and through process I learned how to do that.

Few words about friendships:

Real friendships are rare, most of the adults don't have real friend.

Same about relationships, in most of the relationships people stuck to eachother in order not to feel lonely, but many of them find that they can have a GF or BF wife or husband and stay feeling lonely as fuck because it's not about the physical presence of someone that makes you feel not lonely but the intimacy and trust you build together and that requires awareness and work. That requires two people with healthy minds.

 

There's something very wrong in having a partner just to escape from yourself. It's not fair towards the partner because no one would like to be your distraction from yourself. It's not anyone's problem that you can't tolerate yourself. You need to be able to love yourself first and being able to be happy by yourself.

 

Don't look at the couples on social media and don't think that if two people show to the world they are happy, that necessarily means they are.

Also,

Not having a romantic partner or friends doesn't mean you are worthless, I don't have it and I still have a worth.

Your worth depends on nothing. The fact that you're exist means that you have a worth. And that's enough.

You are hurting yourself by saying you're worthless, and that's very illogical. Why to do so? What use it has? No use. Prise yourself and be gentle to yourself as much as you gentle with kids or animals.

Also, the fact that you are not successful in society's terms doesn't mean you are a looser or failure. Society's factors are very narrow and people are different. Not everyone fits perfectly to the box.

 

I also want to add that you need to be more compassionate toward yourself but don't talk to yourself like a poor helpless person, just be gentle and compassionate. Don't play the victim even if you are a victim because it won't help you.

Instead, see yourself as a warrior who got hurt in life but he is so strong that he overcomes any obstacle.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 28, 2021 by Alysssa

[Blackhawk]

@Alysssa I think I just have bad memory, that's why I don't remember much from my childhood.

If we would dig a bit I think we would find out that you still have more social life than I do. And you probably at least have hope of getting a friend or partner or something. The importance of hope can't be overestimated. You probably subconsciously even know that you will get a friend, boyfriend or something. And also you're a woman so you know that you are desired by all men, also that should increase your happiness level even when you are alone. Me on the other hand, since I'm a man I'm not desired by anyone. But yes ok, maybe you have a stronger psyche then, I'm happy for you.

I seriously can't imagine how I could be happy alone. There's absolutely nothing to be happy about, nada, even if I would love myself. But I do get more happy when I communicate with someone and feel that the person likes me.

7 hours ago, Alysssa said:

You are hurting yourself by saying you're worthless, and that's very illogical. Why to do so? What use it has? No use.

I never think in terms of whether something has any use or not. I only think whether it's true or not.

I have noticed that people want some kind of use of everything. For example they only care about the ultimate truth of reality if it has some kind of use for them. If it isn't useful then they say: "fuck truth, I don't care about it." Or even worse: they create their own delusional belief about the truth which is useful for them.

I'm not denying that I have some worth on some areas. For example for my employer (but my employer could easily replace me) and for my parents. But I'm worthless in pretty much everything else, especially worthless as a friend and bf.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Alysssa]

I accept the true that not everyone find their love of their life. In movies everyone has it's ideal partner. In reality it's much more complicated. I think that it's  about 70% luck. As I said I just don't care about it. I don't live my days thinking about how alone I am or dreaming about someone to fill my emptiness. I just live my life and do the things I like. The same things I would do if I had a partner. If I had a partner nothing would change in my life and I would feel the same happiness but with less time for myself. I don't think how poor I am and what a disaster it's to be a single. I just happy the way it is. It's sounds for you impossible because you are not in mentally healthy place as I am. 

Yes I'm desired by men mainly for what? for sex. and most of the men have no standards about who they are sleeping with so I'm not desired in a special way. I desired simply because I have a vagina and I desired for one activity-sex. I am not desired by most of the men as a GF or wife, this is not the 1st thought of a man when they see me. Maybe I desired in that way and I don't know, I have no clue. I don't have admirers or suitors that I know about. 

I'm sure you are desired at least by one women without realizing it. Maybe those women who desires you are not that beautiful or attractive enough for your to pay attention on them, or maybe they are do but they just feel from you negative vibe or some cold vibe that makes them scary to get to know you. 

check your body language, how you stand, how you hold yourself etc. If you are carry your sadness every place you go, it's something that people can see clearly on you thanx to your body gestures.

Quote

 

I never think in terms of whether something has any use or not. I only think whether it's true or not.

I have noticed that people want some kind of use of everything. For example they only care about the ultimate truth of reality if it has some kind of use for them. If it isn't useful then they say: "fuck truth, I don't care about it." Or even worse: they create their own delusional belief about the truth which is useful for them.

 

You do think in terms whether something has any use or not without realizing it. Everyone does, and it's not a bad thing as you see it because we are selfish and we naturally need reasons that serves us in order to take an action. That makes sense. You want GF and friends because you feel lonely and they useful for you. If you wouldn't feel lonely they had no use for you.

same with work (You work because you need money, money has use for your because it helps you to survive) and any aspect of your life, even your negative thoughts, you hold them so hard because they are useful for you for some reason.

As we concluded that everyone is selfish, I prefer those people who are selfish because they seek the ultimate truth rather than those people who are selfish because they making billions by manipulating people and ruin the environment.

[Blackhawk]

@Alysssa I see.

I have never had a gf.. It's not really normal that someone at my age have never had a partner.

I get sad every time I see a attractive woman. If I could choose between 100 million dollar or a partner, I would choose a partner. There's nothing else in the entire existence than I desire more than women. So maybe you can imagine how nervous women make me. I don't see them as humans, I see them as something much better than humans. And I don't understand how it's possible that something can be so beautiful, such beauty shouldn't be possible, it makes no sense.

Edited July 30, 2021 by Blackhawk

[Alysssa]

We women are humans as you are and we have flaws and imperfections both in our body and personality, we also full of shit not better than you no matter how we look. I promise it to you and the next time your see a beautiful girl imagine her shiting on the toilet or fart and you won't feel that nervous. I get your point that you really want to have a GF but I think that rather than give up on yourself you really should give yourself another chance and work on yourself, gain knowledge and build a full life and then you will attract the right woman without realizing. You have noting to lose and better to take care of yourself, change your mindset and develop yourself and your life rather than spend the time being hostile toward yourself and life.

Give yourself chance to heal. Don't bury yourself alive.

How is your confidence? Do you love yourself? Do you eat healthy? Do you have bad habits? Do you take care of your body? of your mental health?  Do you aware to human psychology? This thing alone can be very helpful to understand yourself and people, What are your dreams? do you have more dreams except for having friend and GF? Work on your dreams. What about your job? Is it really fills you? Who are you? Have you figured it out yet? But really, have you tried to get out of your comfort zone in life?  have you tried to explore new hobbies. tried new things? Have your ever tried to be the best version of yourself? Have you ever considered personal development? 

You are young person, you have so many years to live, your despair is normal but there are so many things you can do. it won't be easy and it will be very scary but it so worth it. 

 

 

 

Edited July 31, 2021 by Alysssa