Struggling with Blackpill

[Leo Gura]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

Have you heard the word compromise ?

That's what the game is.

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, Leo Gura said:

You are like a wolf telling a rabbit, don't camouflage yourself! Just be honest because I am hungry.

If the rabbit is in love, then the rabbit will stop camouflaging for the wolf.

 

[4201]

6 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Survival agendas must be negotiated and reconciled, since they always conflict.

There is no such thing as two humans loving each other without a conflict of survival agendas.

Why would the survival agenda of a couple looking to raise children conflict though? Their survival agenda of both push them toward raising successful children so their genes can spread. 

 

[Leo Gura]

5 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

If the rabbit is in love, then the rabbit will stop camouflaging for the wolf.

Bahahahahahaha....

[RendHeaven]

15 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

You guys have a hard time grasping the relativity of survival agendas.

@Preety_India Leo said nothing about right or wrong, nor did he say anything about caring or not caring.

Learn to look at things from "above!"

You're fucking selfish, like other women, and so are men, as well as I and Leo. Just in different & interesting ways.

When you "get it" you'll be celebrating because it's awesome to behold the human condition holistically.

But it seems like you refusing to "get it" by being stuck in debate-mode. Understanding doesn't come from debate!

Edited July 21, 2021 by RendHeaven

[RendHeaven]

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Why would the survival agenda of a couple looking to raise children conflict though? Their survival agenda of both push them toward raising successful children so their genes can spread. 

Your parents ever fight?

[Preety_India]

1 minute ago, RendHeaven said:

@Preety_India Leo said nothing about right or wrong, nor did he say anything about caring or not caring.

Learn to look at things from "above!"

You're fucking selfish, like other women, and so are men. Just in different & interesting ways.

When you "get it" you'll be celebrating because it's awesome to behold the human condition holistically.

But it seems like you refusing to "get it" by being stuck in debate-mode. Understanding doesn't come from debate!

Why is selfish being wrong as long as it doesn't hurt anyone ?

 

[4201]

2 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Your parents ever fight?

Yes but not in the benefit of their survival. If I were to analyze why they fight, I'd say one of them is seeking love and validation from the other and is under the impression that they depend on this love.

You could say this love dependance is survival but it's broken survival. Their survival would be more effective without the "need to be loved". It doesn't really help them survive nor their children survive better.

I'm not saying survival agendas never clashes but I'm not seeing why they'd always do. When 2 people have children their true survival agenda coincidence and any remaining issues are really just unsolved problems about themselves.

[RendHeaven]

1 minute ago, Preety_India said:

Why is selfish being wrong as long as it doesn't hurt anyone ?

It's not wrong! Whenever we bring up selfishness on this forum, we don't do it to moralize.

If I say "hey, you're selfish." It's an observation akin to "hey, you're a human," or "hey, you have eyeballs."

Being human is neither right nor wrong, having eyeballs is neither right nor wrong, and being selfish is neither right nor wrong.

You might wonder then, why make such a big deal out of observing selfishness?

Well, because it explains almost all of human behavior!

Noticing selfishness will help explain why you think, feel, and act the way you do, and in turn you gain self-understanding;

Noticing selfishness will help explain why others think, feel, and act the way they do, and in turn you gain understanding of others;

And when the two conjoin, you finally have access to genuine compassion, for you see that you are connected to other people through mutual selfishness, and your heart is finally able to burn bright in spite of what the world throws at you.

So observing and understanding selfishness (without moralistic judgements of "right" or "wrong") is very powerful and practical!

[RendHeaven]

38 minutes ago, 4201 said:

You could say this love dependance is survival but it's broken survival. Their survival would be more effective without the "need to be loved". It doesn't really help them survive nor their children survive better.

This is an excellent observation.

"Love-dependence," as you've put it, certainly falls under the category of survival, but it's definitely not in the same kind of survival as biological self-preservation and reproduction.

Rather, "Love-dependence" is more of a higher-order survival, a survival of the self-image/human ego-mind/character.

One would think that the survival of biological self-preservation and reproduction would always triumph, because the self-image/ego-mind/character is sort of a luxury of humans that are not dead

And yet, in the plot twist of eons, we can observe many instances of the latter ego-survival (which craves validation, etc.) supplanting the former biological survival.

Fighting parents are a perfect example of this. Each side wants love and so lashes out selfishly in a bid to survive their current self-image, e.g. "I am a wife to this man, we took on wedding vows to stand by each other, but why the hell does he feel so distant now? This isn't who I am, this isn't who we are, I need to express this discontentment - it's just too much to keep repressed. But he's not listening, maybe I have to scream and yell. Fine, I will."

And to an outsider it might be like "Yo wtf are these ego games? Don't you see you're hurting your biological survival?"

But I'd like to pause us here and really reflect on why we seem to prioritize ego-survival over biological survival... there is of course no one right answer. I imagine there are a cluster of reasons that differ per person, but this inquiry is especially effective if we can find personal reasons from our own experiences.

Do you recall ever prioritizing silly ego-games over what would've been the more "rational" action to maximize biological survival? It can be really subtle, such as being hung up over your ex and hugging your pillow in bed at night instead of falling asleep soundly and on time.

What purpose does "higher order" self-image/ego-mind/character survival serve at the big picture level? What is it's relation to biological survival? Are they really so different? Is there anything about self-image survival that strikes you as especially meaningful or even beautiful? If, hypothetically, the Universe was a self-aware Intelligence, why would it assign so much layered complexity to survival?

Edited July 21, 2021 by RendHeaven
Color-coded! Heck yeah!

[StarStruck]

I'm doing pickup for couple of months right now and I noticed that most girls that give me their number are insecure girls, they just give their number for an ego boost, and afterwards they are very flakey.

My sexual tension towards them is very mild and I treat them as a friend so the advice women are giving is definitely not working. I will try to up the implicit sexual tension and see how that works.

[Preety_India]

8 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Do you recall ever prioritizing silly ego-games over what would've been the more "rational" action to maximize biological survival? It can be really subtle, such as being hung up over your ex and hugging your pillow in bed at night instead of falling asleep soundly and on time.

Why are you separating both ? Ego survival is deeply attached to biological survival?

In fact ego is generated for survival itself. Ego is all about survival.

So when ego is hurt everything gets hurt.

Now how you manage your ego depends on you .

But ego can't be separated from survival. Because it's created from it literally 

Separating ego from survival is like separating leather from lungs from the body. The body will die 

 

[Preety_India]

3 minutes ago, StarStruck said:

I'm doing pickup for couple of months right now and I noticed that most girls that give me their number are insecure girls, they just give their number for an ego boost, and afterwards they are very flakey.

If you approach girls for superficial reasons, superficial girls will come to you 

 

[4201]

@RendHeaven You open a very interesting can of worms, but my initial point is simply that there exist a way to align your survival agenda with someone else, not that ego games are not survival. We can create categories of survival and whatnot but ego games are not required for true or biological survival.

Even if it requires both party to be enlightened, there exists a way. I just disagree with the idea that survival agendas always conflict.

7 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

What purpose does "higher order" self-image/ego-mind/character survival serve at the big picture level? What is it's relation to biological survival, really. Are they really so different?

You "survive" whatever you think you are. If you identify with an idea you protect this idea, hence the birth of an ego. This is Ralston's explanation which I like a bit but it's easy to use this to judge ego as a mistake.

Basically you are asking if there's a point to not being awake? "Ah yes it's been designed it so that I stay stuck in ego games so that I keep wanting to survive". I think that's bullshit, you are already awake, the premise is false.

7 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

Is there anything about self-image survival that strikes you as meaningful or even beautiful? If, hypothetically, the Universe was a self-aware Intelligence, why would it assign so much complexity to survival?

Anyone who isn't stuck in survival might see it as beautiful. Not sure what your point about complexity is. You are the one assigning the concept of complexity to survival. What is complex about it?

[RendHeaven]

9 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Why are you separating both ?

They aren't separate. I was playing along with the distinction made by Mr. 4201.

10 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

But ego can't be separated from survival. Because it's created from it literally 

Good! Now realize that "ego" is YOU and your whole life story

[Preety_India]

Just now, RendHeaven said:

They aren't separate. I was playing along with the distinction made by Mr. 4201.

Good! Now realize that "ego" is YOU and your whole life story

But this realisation doesn't help. Because it will literally exist. You can't simply make it go poof !!

So I'm not getting your point. Are you saying that people should forget their ego/survival in relationships? Why would they do that ?

 

 

[4201]

8 minutes ago, RendHeaven said:

They aren't separate. I was playing along with the distinction made by Mr. 4201.

A distinction can indeed be made between healthy and unhealthy survival. You could analyze that what lead you to jump off the building was identifications with ideas that you absolutely wanted to keep believing and thus you jumped off the building out of survival. 

But it's not an effective way to preserve the body. My only point is that there exist a way for a group of individual to align their survival agenda together such that the preservation of their body (and their offspring is maximized). The constant state of conflict Leo brought is not a must, just a possibility.

Edited July 21, 2021 by 4201

[RendHeaven]

4 minutes ago, 4201 said:

but ego games are not required for true or biological survival.

How would you know that?

Sincerely...

5 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Even if it requires both party to be enlightened, there exists a way.

Being enlightened doesn't stop you from playing ego-games  I agree that, relatively speaking, 2 lovers can suspend ego momentarily. But then they will continue to do human things as though they are humans, don't you agree? 

And insofar as they maintain that humanness, I expect that there will be survival conflicts.

10 minutes ago, 4201 said:

but it's easy to use this to judge ego as a mistake.

Yes, ego is no mistake.

10 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Basically you are asking if there's a point to not being awake? "Ah yes it's been designed it so that I stay stuck in ego games so that I keep wanting to survive". I think that's bullshit, you are already awake, the premise is false.

I don't know what I'm asking. I just felt provocative lol. The way you interpret my question is interesting... we think alike, but also not!

12 minutes ago, 4201 said:

Anyone who isn't stuck in survival might see it as beautiful. Not sure what your point about complexity is. You are the one assigning the concept of complexity to survival. What is complex about it?

Yes, well "I" am also the one "assigning the concept" of "survival" onto "__."

This shit appears HIGHLY layered. I call this observation "complexity." What would you like to call it?

I think it's easy to think we've understood the entire structure of survival after hearing or talking about it for some time, as though we were pointing at a fruit and triumphantly declaring, "apple!"

but it's dawning on me that you could spend a lifetime going deeper and deeper and deeper...

[RendHeaven]

 

20 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

So I'm not getting your point.

Refer back to my comment earlier:

1 hour ago, RendHeaven said:

Noticing selfishness will help explain why you think, feel, and act the way you do, and in turn you gain self-understanding;

Noticing selfishness will help explain why others think, feel, and act the way they do, and in turn you gain understanding of others;

And when the two conjoin, you finally have access to genuine compassion, for you see that you are connected to other people through mutual selfishness, and your heart is finally able to burn bright in spite of what the world throws at you.

---

22 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

Are you saying that people should forget their ego/survival in relationships? Why would they do that ?

What I AM saying is that there is great practicality in studying selfishness/survival, for it will make you more compassionate.

I have not said anything about how you ought to conduct yourself, nor have I said anything about relationships specifically.

[StarStruck]

48 minutes ago, Preety_India said:

If you approach girls for superficial reasons, superficial girls will come to you 

 

What is superficial about trying to get a gf?