Beginner asking about Thoughts and Negativity

[Shaul]

If the brain is geared towards survival, then why would it think negative thoughts? How exactly does it serve the mind? I mean in nature for example, if you'd be pessimistic about your chances of finding food then you'd die. Or, is the correct way of looking at it, is that for example a loser's mind would keep the negative thinking to make the loser's identity survive?

Also, in meditation you are asked to observe your thoughts from a distance and not to identify with them. If you are not identified with your thoughts then how come inside of you there is "someone" who is producing the thoughts and "another" who is watching them. Are those just two different parts of the brain working simultaneously?

[ZzzleepingBear]

Negative thoughts, is merely an opposite to positive thoughts. Both serves to find a middleground, or balance point. Drinking water is healthy for you, but if you drink too much of it at once, you end up poisoning yourself. And you are simultaneously dependant on drinking to survive. It all sounds like a contradiction until you take balance into perspective.

In meditation, this "someone" is a thought in itself, that may seemingly appear as if this "someone" is producing thoughts. The point of watching, is to gain a increasing awareness of thoughts that you might identify with as yourself, as they arise in your mind with or without your own apparent doing.

[gettoefl]

1. mind's job is to be never satisfied, to keep you chasing craving clinging for ever and a day, mind pretends happiness is very close, it is always lying, it wants you to dominate and be god of the world but in a fearful mean and selfish way

2. you divide yourself into two, falsely ... into a thinker and one who is the seer of the thinker ... there is no thinker though, thoughts arise and the mind claims them as mine as says i think ... this is a lie ... you are the awareness, the witness, the watcher of all that arises ... to watch and not attach is meditation

[Shaul]

@ZzzleepingBear @gettoefl Thank you guys for your answers.

On 7/17/2021 at 1:27 PM, ZzzleepingBear said:

In meditation, this "someone" is a thought in itself

Wow, this is actually shocking to only even ponder about this possibility.

On 7/17/2021 at 1:27 PM, ZzzleepingBear said:

but if you drink too much of it at once, you end up poisoning yourself

Well, I wouldn't define that as something negative. It's a mechanism (the feeling that you are bloated and shouldn't drink anymore) that actually allows you to survive. I was talking more about negative thinking patterns, pessimism and depression. These things, to put it mildly, don't really increase your chances of survival.

[Thought Art]

@ZzzleepingBear Negative thoughts is a far more robust happening than purely being pessimistic like "OH... Why bother not gonna find food anyway..."... 

It's more like... Well this is a deep subject... But, negative thoughts can keep you from stepping outside of your comfort zone because that has kept you alive. Whatever thoughts, positive or negative that have kept you alive in the past persist. 

Fear is a powerful survival mechanism. It can be a negative trait of course. 

Really, positive and negative thinking is such a paper thin concern. The level you can take your thoughts and interpretation of reality goes so much deeper than this. 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Thought Art

[ZzzleepingBear]

@Shaul  You're welcome Shaul. And that possibility is good to contemplate on, if there is alot of inner dialog getting in the way of itself.

Ok my water example was maybe a bit confusing.

So yes, the brain/mind is geared to survival. And when the bodily needs are meet. We are getting into the identity/purpose that are directly linked with our bodily survival. It is my believe that our modern lifestyle and upbeat rythm of living, is as a consequence making it increasingly harder to maintain a identity for alot of people. It's like a cultural death process that are in a accelerating speed from the historical momentum behind it. So it's another kind of survival to attain to for us living in the first world countrys. That in itself may contain both the good and the bad for survival, but it's a on going process into the unknown imo.

@Thought Art My point adressing the positive/negative thoughts is that they relate to eachother through a balance point. They can be A dual aspect of thinking when related to emotionaly. But the postive/negative emotional thinking doesn't represent thinking as a whole. 

[Leo Gura]

On 7/17/2021 at 2:27 AM, Shaul said:

If the brain is geared towards survival, then why would it think negative thoughts? How exactly does it serve the mind? I mean in nature for example, if you'd be pessimistic about your chances of finding food then you'd die.

Fear generates results by sending you scrambling into action.

When you are walking through the woods and think, "There might be a bear around the corner" you are more careful than if you walk around thinking happy thoughts.

Also, the highly conceptual and ideological way modern humans live is far removed from simple examples like finding foods in nature. If your only job was to find food in nature like a rabbit, you would have very few negative thoughts. Most of your negative thoughts come from highly conceptual, ideological mental activity far removed from simple physical survival.

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Also, in meditation you are asked to observe your thoughts from a distance and not to identify with them. If you are not identified with your thoughts then how come inside of you there is "someone" who is producing the thoughts and "another" who is watching them. Are those just two different parts of the brain working simultaneously?

When all thoughts cease, there is no longer a "someone" within experience at all.

Obviously there is no one inside you producing nor watching thoughts. Thoughts simply arise within a field of consciousness. Thoughts ARE the field itself. It is not even correct to say that there are thoughts vs a field, or thoughts vs a watcher. You ARE thoughts. Everything is one. There is no watcher as some object. Watcher and watched are identical.

[hyruga]

Your mind's job is to protect you from danger so it will come up with all kinds of dangers that might happen. For example, if you want to go bungee jumping, it will tell you the danger of heights and falling to death. If you want to drive fast car, it will stop you from going so fast.

 

[WelcometoReality]

On 2021-07-17 at 11:27 AM, Shaul said:

If the brain is geared towards survival, then why would it think negative thoughts? How exactly does it serve the mind? I mean in nature for example, if you'd be pessimistic about your chances of finding food then you'd die. Or, is the correct way of looking at it, is that for example a loser's mind would keep the negative thinking to make the loser's identity survive?

Also, in meditation you are asked to observe your thoughts from a distance and not to identify with them. If you are not identified with your thoughts then how come inside of you there is "someone" who is producing the thoughts and "another" who is watching them. Are those just two different parts of the brain working simultaneously?

Like @Leo Gura said the body is conditioned toward survival. What you call a losers mind might have been a winners mind a million years ago. Winning then was about not taking unnecessary risks. Keep yourself in a well known area and keep out of the unknown.

That is quite contrary to what winning is now. There is very little that is a risk to your life and meeting the fear of the unknown is a big part of winning.

Thoughts come up with little to no control of them, negative thoughts especially. They are based on the negative feelings that arise in the body. You are the watcher of both. 

[Shaul]

So to sum it up, negative thoughts arise from negative feelings that originate mostly nowadays from conceptual mental activity.

Now, regarding meditation. Not gonna lie, at this stage of my development your answers sound no more than beautiful words to my ears. How can I actually experience and understand it?

On 7/19/2021 at 2:34 AM, Leo Gura said:

When all thoughts cease, there is no longer a "someone" within experience at all.

Obviously there is no one inside you producing nor watching thoughts. Thoughts simply arise within a field of consciousness. Thoughts ARE the field itself. It is not even correct to say that there are thoughts vs a field, or thoughts vs a watcher. You ARE thoughts. Everything is one. There is no watcher as some object. Watcher and watched are identical.

 

[nistake]

25 minutes ago, Shaul said:

So to sum it up, negative thoughts arise from negative feelings that originate mostly nowadays from conceptual mental activity.

Now, regarding meditation. Not gonna lie, at this stage of my development your answers sound no more than beautiful words to my ears. How can I actually experience and understand it?

You're honest with yourself, so that's a great starting point. The only way to experience a shift in consciousness is to keep meditating every single day. Read the necessary books, find retreats if you feel like it, but most importantly, be patient and disciplined.

Psychedelics can help you a lot, but if you have lots of unconscious shadow material in your psyche, it'd be wise to actaully uncover them in a sober way beforehand. Then, you can proceed to experimenting with psychedelics. However, if you feel like you're in a good place and you've got a clear, focused mind, go for it, but only with a small dose first with the right set/settings.

[Shaul]

@nistake Thank you.

On 7/24/2021 at 0:42 PM, nistake said:

but if you have lots of unconscious shadow material in your psyche, it'd be wise to actaully uncover them in a sober way beforehand.

What do you mean by "shadow material"? Are you referring to emotional blockages or unhealed trauma? Isn't one of their qualities to purify you from such things?

[nistake]

@Shaul Pretty much every single part of yourself that you've repressed unconsciously so far in your life. This can include emotions and traumas, just like you said, but also various desires that are not acceptable by society/your family/your social circle. 

Psychedelics can show you your shadow self and after that you can work on healing and integrating. So it is definitely helpful, but the work must be done be you. Popping psychedelics alone won't get you far. And there's one more thing that is important to keep in mind: the denser your shadow, the more it can traumatize you.