Breadtube serves Imperialism - Excerpts about Ian 'Vaush' Kochinski

[DocWatts]

46 minutes ago, Milos Uzelac said:

“Tankie” used to be a term for British communists who supported the Soviet Union, but under the facilitation of narrative managers like Smith it’s enjoying a mainstream resurrection in which it is commonly weaponized against anyone to the left of Sen. Bernie Sanders who opposes U.S.  imperialist agendas.

That's a flagrantly dishonest and reductionist argument.

Someone like Noam Chomsky, who's well to the Left of Bernie Sanders, is a harsh critic of both US Imperialism and authoritarian Socialism (such as Marxist-Leninism). The idea that anyone on the Libertarian-Left would consider him a "tankie" is laughable.

Stop defending authoritarianism.

Just because the US engages in Imperialism doesn't mean that other countries automatically get a free pass for authoritarian practices.

Both should be criticized.

Edited July 11, 2021 by DocWatts

[Milos Uzelac]

11 minutes ago, DocWatts said:

Stop defending authoritarianism.

Just because the US engages in Imperialism doesn't mean that other countries automatically get a free pass for authoritarian practices.

Both should be criticized.

Wouldn't even be compelled to do that if it was an even playing field. 

The main problem as I see it is the Western media monopoly that projects their own unsolved issues onto other nations and cynically manufactures or construes evidence for fitting the legal definition of genocide as in the Uyghur case to drive a media narrative while deliberately downplaying the Palestinian case and situation. 

Here is a video disputing the former:

 

[DocWatts]

45 minutes ago, Milos Uzelac said:

Wouldn't even be compelled to do that if it was an even playing field. 

The main problem as I see it is the Western media monopoly that projects their own unsolved issues onto other nations and cynically manufactures or construes evidence for fitting the legal definition of genocide as in the Uyghur case to drive a media narrative while deliberately downplaying the Palestinian case and situation.

Of course US corporate media monopolies are going to be pushing a self serving narrative. There's nothing unique about this; Russia and China each have thier own version of this, so the United States is not special in this regard. What is an outlet like Russia Today if not Russia's own version of that?

If anything, the social fragmentation that's been occuring over the last decade or so in America is indicative of exactly the opposite problem;  namely that shared national narratives are breaking down due in part to the decentralisation of news media, and that whatever your worldview there exists an information source to reinforce one's existing biases.

 

Edited July 11, 2021 by DocWatts

[Girzo]

Jeez, this Caleb Maupin guy is an idiot. The book reminds me of "works" of Dinesh Souza or some other bullshit writing right-winger, but instead of being ultra-American, it's ultra-Soviet-style communism. Both are bullshit ideologies.

That level of discourse does not demand a serious response. I wouldn't argue with a kid over politics, and I would neither do so with this guy.

4 hours ago, Milos Uzelac said:

it’s enjoying a mainstream resurrection in which it is commonly weaponized against anyone to the left of Sen. Bernie Sanders who opposes U.S.  imperialist agendas.

No, it's not used towards anyone more left than Bernie Sanders. It's used towards anyone on the left who is less developed than the liberals. I mean less developed in terms of a values set one deems important, exactly the thing that Spiral Dynamics describes. People don't know that model but they can intuitively smell someone less developed than them on that axis.

And if you want to oppose that opinion, then is really writing such a slanderous book in an attacking tone a sign of high development? That's not how you do quality reporting.

[Milos Uzelac]

9 hours ago, DocWatts said:

The idea that anyone on the Libertarian-Left would consider him a "tankie" is laughable.

One of my problems with the self-proclaimed liberatarian left crowd is that stuff like this gets uncovered. No matter their psychological development on spiral dynamics this background and history presents a trust problem and a potential conflict of interest of advocating for something. Its seems on the outset like one part of these people use it as a sort of a de-radicalization umbrella for various ideas presented to left-oriented people to lessen their radicalism while on the same note not questioning the actors and their backgrounds who present such ideas. 

Like this guy who runs the channel and goes by the Twitter handle Socialism Done Left:

 

[Milos Uzelac]

8 hours ago, DocWatts said:

Of course US corporate media monopolies are going to be pushing a self serving narrative. There's nothing unique about this; Russia and China each have thier own version of this, so the United States is not special in this regard.

The scope is much larger I would argue due to the tech-monopolies being US based multinationals and the fact that the majority of the planet learns English for  global commercial purposes. 

8 hours ago, DocWatts said:

If anything, the social fragmentation that's been occuring over the last decade or so in America is indicative of exactly the opposite problem;  namely that shared national narratives are breaking down due in part to the decentralisation of news media, and that whatever your worldview there exists an information source to reinforce one's existing biases.

Well you are right about that and therein lies the danger of being stuck in your own psychological bubble and crowd echo chamber that is also partially enforced by the biases and survival interests of one's own position on the social ladder, economic development and wealth of the region, class, race, ethnicity, religion etc. 

Though I admit this view is also prone to simplification and generalisation for the purposes of one's own survival and prosperity bias and position in the globe and danger of being enslaved to one news sources that feeds your opinions, biases and proclivities back to you. 

[Milos Uzelac]

8 hours ago, DocWatts said:

and that whatever your worldview there exists an information source to reinforce one's existing biases.

Yes this is dangerous trap and obstacle against developing open-mindedness and the ability to view and think about the world, your position, place in it and state in it from multiple perspectives. Though this only comes from a disengaged, calmed and healthy mind not hooked on survival and crowd mentality pressure. Quite the challenge and feat to consistently develop and have consistent personal integrity with at the cost of short-term repercussions and consequences. 

[Milos Uzelac]

6 hours ago, Girzo said:

The book reminds me of "works" of Dinesh Souza or some other bullshit writing right-winger, but instead of being ultra-American, it's ultra-Soviet-style communism.

Wouldnt equate them on the same position on the spiral based on some flimsy perceived similarties or biased projections. I don't personally see to equate them both as the since Caleb to be on a much higher level of rigour and intellectual seriousness then D'Souza who is tasked to invent ways for narrative validation of some disengaged from reality claims of the Republican Party. Maupin as some say may have ulterior motives or ideological biases but he puts much more serious intellectual seriousness and rigour to push his claims, that I don't feel as much being agenda driven for a larger entity, as much as being his staunch beliefs about the world and actual held positions. I am not sure D'Souza actually truly believes the stuff he puts forth. 

 

6 hours ago, Girzo said:

That level of discourse does not demand a serious response. I wouldn't argue with a kid over politics, and I would neither do so with this guy.

Dismissing some arguments on the basis of being or labelling them as infantile and one being beyond them

is not either seriously engaging with their content or putting in the effort to actually adress them point by point and disprove them on the basis of contra-arguments based on evidence. It's more of a triggered response to seeing something one does not like or isn't alligned with one's own proclivities or tastes. 

6 hours ago, Girzo said:

It's used towards anyone on the left who is less developed than the liberals. I mean less developed in terms of a values set one deems important, exactly the thing that Spiral Dynamics describes. People don't know that model but they can intuitively smell someone less developed than them on that axis.

Yeah I would agree with everything you said here about the psychological traps one might fall into deluding oneself he is more developed or more advanced then some simply on the basis of holding dogmatically an ideological position one feels is more correct and truthful simply through seeing the world through the lense of his own survival biases, lived conditions, group belonging, history and perceived past. 

6 hours ago, Girzo said:

And if you want to oppose that opinion, then is really writing such a slanderous book in an attacking tone a sign of high development? That's not how you do quality reporting.

He does not oppose that opinion since he is not critiquing the model of Spiral Dynamics, since I don't know if he even knows about it. He is critiquing BreadTube as phenomenona which he sees as presenting to him a misconstrued version of socialism divorced from the international context, apart from the conditions in the Western hemisphere, and the history of others peoples and countries trials and tribulations of implementing a functioning and prosperous model of it which corresponds to the actual stated goal and aim of that worldview which is a world where humans are truly free and not slaves to their own conditions they find themselves in, or at least that's my interpretation of it, and the various ways of achieving this. 

Edited July 12, 2021 by Milos Uzelac

[Leo Gura]

What is this gossipy crap?

Sounds about as petty as my RationalWiki page.

[Girzo]

5 hours ago, Milos Uzelac said:

He does not oppose that opinion since he is not critiquing the model of Spiral Dynamics, since I don't know if he even knows about it.

I meant Maupin being less developed than even the youtubers he criticizes and you opposing this opinion, not him criticising SD.

5 hours ago, Milos Uzelac said:

Dismissing some arguments on the basis of being or labelling them as infantile and one being beyond them

is not either seriously engaging with their content or putting in the effort to actually adress them point by point and disprove them on the basis of contra-arguments based on evidence.

1. Most of the stuff you have cited is not arguments, just smearing people.

If one wants to be liked, if one wants to mean something in the political game, the worst thing to do is to start throwing shit at others.

2. The stuff that could be taken as arguments is so off, to correct it you would have to start from the basics they teach at college. He doesn't construe quality arguments. Not book-quality for sure. 

Also, why would I put an effort? He is not gonna read it. You are probably the only person on this forum reading him and you are not gonna change your mind. Just a big waste of time to put that effort.

Replying to this thread already borders on too much effort.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Girzo

[Dryas]

OP, this is Caleb fucking Maupin. If you were a little more aware of the online political sphere, you’d know this guy is the last person on the planet you want to be listening to. 

[NOTintoxicated]

@Milos Uzelac Holy shit. 

My dude, who hurt you? Do you always feel emasculated by confident, intelligent men to the point where you'll sheepishly buy in to the most flimsily conjured hit piece towards such a person? This book came out this year, and lists 27 year old Vaush as 25, as per the images you've posted. I see accusations of Vaush being a pedophile because he made the argument that there are forms of exploitation akin to the production of child pornography that aren't being discussed. (You'd have to be really desperate to actually believe he is defending child porn). And the narratives you posted show this book making the case that a communist should not support the democrat party over the republican party, as if there were any other viable alternatives. Just embarrassing stuff here. 

I imagine someone like yourself would be thoroughly devastated by the pending epiphany of how vastly inept you're demonstrating yourself to be if it ever somehow occurred to you.  Vaush has been living in Caleb Maupin's head rent free for over a year since he got outright embarrassed in a debate so brutally that he's resorted to publishing obvious revenge pieces via this factually flawed pathetic excuse for a book, that will only be read by insecure woke-scolds, or posturing tankies who were bullied all throughout middle & high school and perceive confident, witty men as a mortal enemy. 

I'm actually struggling to comprehend how someone who cares about "self-actualization" or whatever could be so utterly devoid of any semblance of introspection to the point where they would post this thread. Any inbred, slack-jawed, knuckle-dragging, preadolescent, head injured, lobotomy recovering, mental patient should know better.

 

[Milos Uzelac]

5 hours ago, Girzo said:

1. Most of the stuff you have cited is not arguments, just smearing people.

I can't see how there isn't a semblance of an argument on the basis of exposing someone's beliefs as actually faux in regards to what someone actually perpetrates to standing for and believing. In other words, pointing to contradictions in one's stated beliefs and principles and actual conduct in the world and wider beliefs about the world.

6 hours ago, Girzo said:

if one wants to mean something in the political game, the worst thing to do is to start throwing shit at others.

Pointing out to the readers how someone, maybe out of ignorance, unconsciously or perhaps out of self-serving interests, pushes systems of power and empire serving narratives to his audience while purportedly claiming to be doing something else amounts to shit tossing?

7 hours ago, Girzo said:

2. The stuff that could be taken as arguments is so off, to correct it you would have to start from the basics they teach at college. He doesn't construe quality arguments. Not book-quality for sure. 

His book, as I've seen the excerpts from it, is actually more like cataloguing of breadtubers, their biographies and their most heinous arguments and espoused positions on certain issues. So Leo is right in the sense that it kinda ammounts to gossipy shit but I would argue with a quality backdrop of giving some people who are interested about these online personalities and their social influence a background where they come from with thier positions and propagation of certain narratives. So the title of how BreadTube serves Imperialism can't be fully understood alone from these excerpts.

 

7 hours ago, Girzo said:

You are probably the only person on this forum reading him and you are not gonna change your mind.

I am not reading him I just saw these excerpts posted online and it caught my attention. I will see if I consider buying his book, I am currently in financial problems in regards to paying off my faculty debt and passing some exams which I failed and have to pass in August so I don't know if it would be worth my time and money and not a distraction from reading some actual relevant work or books that are relevant to understanding the history and origins of the living conditions of the country I currenlty live in. Like Michael Parrenti's work  - How to Kill a Nation. The War on Yugoslavia.

7 hours ago, Girzo said:

Replying to this thread already borders on too much effort.

Agreed. I feel the same. I will ask some of the moderators to lock this thread it has already gone off the rails on level of reactivity on my side that I reacted to unconsciously when met by intially only dismissals or accusations that I am promoting reading a hateful ideologies promoting author that goes against the guidelines of the forum and on some people who chimed in recently triggered by the title of the thread, it's ammount of views or I don't know criticisms layed out of their viewing and online consumption habits of online personalities presented in these excerpts of the book. 

[Milos Uzelac]

7 hours ago, Dryas said:

If you were a little more aware of the online political sphere, you’d know this guy is the last person on the planet you want to be listening to. 

Fine. Thanks for the advice. I will look more into it before posting some book or excerpts from a book next time. Thanks for non-accusatory and calm heads-up.

Edited July 12, 2021 by Milos Uzelac

[Leo Gura]

Locked for being a low quality topic of conservation.