A very radical nondual question for Leo

[billiesimon]

Hey, @Leo Gura,  I was contemplating my perceptions tonight, alone in bed, and noticing how other people in photos are just my own perceptions, not real entities. But still I can't feel other people as me, because of survival agenda I have. I can on psychedelics. 

But i notice during my contemplations that people in photos are just my perception and not real objects. 

This is my question:

Does the game of separateness collapse ON THEIR end too? 

I mean... You become conscious of being them. And that's ok. 

At that point do they drop the mask? Do they mirror your understanding? Or do they keep acting unconscious? 

It makes sense to me that they should drop the mask once you become totally omniscient. Why should they keep the facade up? 

Sorry for the weird question 

Edited July 9, 2021 by billiesimon

[Mason Riggle]

'They' are the mask. If you full drop your mask, there is no them.. it's all you. 

[billiesimon]

8 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

'They' are the mask. If you full drop your mask, there is no them.. it's all you. 

I get it, I'm not talking about the core Self. I'm talking about the illusion. 

Does the illusion become self conscious? Do the people show recognition of their true self? 

You look at the mirror. Then you recognize that you are the person in the mirror. "oh it's me". 

The image in the mirror should also reflect that recognition. That's what I mean. 

[ivankiss]

No one will ever know.

No you = No Them

How could they anything if you are nothing?

[Mason Riggle]

@billiesimon the illusion is 'separation'. 

It's not that 'you' don't exist.. it's that there's no 'you' separate from that which is not you. 

[Mason Riggle]

@billiesimon consider, if you were dreaming, and suddenly realised you were dreaming, would the characters in your dream realise it too? They will if you dream it so. 

If you fully awaken, where are the dream characters to realise anything??

[Terell Kirby]

@billiesimon you are imagining these beings from multiple perspectives. Not only in your own life experience as the fictional character you are, but you are also imagining their life experiences as the fictional characters they are.

Their unconsciousness is your doing, God :-)

Edited July 9, 2021 by Terell Kirby

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, Mason Riggle said:

'They' are the mask. If you full drop your mask, there is no them.. it's all you. 

There isn't an imaginary self(lower self) and then a real self(higher self).

They are both the same illusion.

❤

 

 

[VeganAwake]

2 hours ago, billiesimon said:

I get it, I'm not talking about the core Self. I'm talking about the illusion.

There isn't a core Self that's the same illusion.

❤

[RMQualtrough]

No. Their behaviour won't change. I have found more understanding in the inaccurate term WE are Brahman. Simply because we know our lives through limited parts of the whole. There is only one "I", but many separate experiences.

Groups of experience we tend to give labels like "human" or "dog" or "cat".

It is all consciousness but we experience life AS the human, dog, or cat. So for sake of understanding and not thinking you can control others etc it is best to know no boundary but think and act from the paradigm of boundary.

[roopepa]

I'm no enlightened master but I have some exprience.

The duality collapses on "both sides", or actually nothing collapses, because "us" is already one.

Everyone is already enlightened and One. What you refer to as "other" is just a mask. The mask itself does not act differently, because that would negate the meaning / function of the mask.

Beyond the masks, there is an infinite telepathical orgy party happening. Masks may fight, disagree and even kill each other, but deep inside we are all orgasming inside each other at all times.

[Anahata]

There is no veil of perception in actuality, notice that there is no subjective experience that you're having right now,this is not happening to a person. It is direct. So you are in direct communication with yourself as God at all times. You didn't notice that Reality is conscious as you because you got immersed in the game of separation which is the perfect (imagined/dreamed up)'starting point' for God to be able to awaken to itself fully. 

What appears in Reality in the process of awakening is You guiding your way into becoming totally conscious of that which cannot be talked about(pointer->recognizing that Consciousness appearing as other beings in the Now is God and it is totally self aware). 'Others' are not something separate from what the present moment appears as.

Their substance/fundamental nature is absoute truth. And absolute truth knows itself. Totally. 

The path of awakening leads to seeing 'others' as they really are which is what you are. Absolute truth. When you awaken to it you will realize that this has always been the case. Everything is in perfect unity with itself. 

You must work towards piercing through all your beliefs about Reality, to really see through the grand play that you're imagining right now.

Your mind creates distinctions between stuff & you and other.

It's a singular direct beingness.

 

 

[billiesimon]

Thanks for the replies, to everyone.

Well, I get what you are saying. The Self is the one who awakens inside the dream, and not the imaginary people (my ego is included of course).

But what I mean is that an awakened "person" is capable of showing that they are realized. I was just wondering if other people, EVEN THOUGH they are conceptual and not actual, can show this sign of realization once you realize the True Self.

I guess it's still a game of duality that my mind is playing. Nonetheless, I found it possible.

[Breakingthewall]

2 hours ago, Anahata said:

You didn't notice that Reality is conscious as you because you got immersed in the game of separation which is the perfect (imagined/dreamed up)'starting point' for God to be able to awaken to itself fully.

looking at my life it seems to me that this is a deliberate plan. circumstances that make you sleep and then wake up. I wonder the reason for all this. Apart from the answer "infinite love", I have the feeling that it is something necessary, but for what? do not know. what do you think?

[Mason Riggle]

@Breakingthewall

The Dream of LIfe-  Alan Watts

"If you awaken from this illusion and you understand that black implies white, self implies other, life implies death, (or shall I say death implies life?), you can feel yourself - not as a stranger in the world - not as something here on probation, not as something that has arrived by fluke - but you can begin to feel you own existence as absolutely fundamental.

I am not trying to sell you on this idea, in the sense of converting you to it. I want you to play with it. I want you to think of it's possibilities, I am not trying to prove it. I am just putting it forward as a possibility of life to think about.

So then, let’s suppose that you were able every night to dream any dream you wanted to dream, and that you could, for example, have the power within one night to dream for 75 years of time, or any length of time you wanted to have.

And you would naturally, as you begin on this adventure of dreams, you would fulfill all your wishes. You would have every kind of pleasure you can concieve. And after several nights of seventy five years of total pleasure each, you would say "Well that was pretty great”. But now let’s have a surprise, let’s have a dream that’s not under control, where something is going to happen to me that I don’t know what it’s going to be. And you would do that and would come out of that and you would say "Wow that was a close shave, wasn’t it"? Then you would get more and more adventurous and you would make further-in and further-out gambles to what you would dream. And finally, you would dream where you are now. You would dream the dream of living a life that you are actually living today.

That would be within the infinite multiplicity of choices you would have. Of playing that you weren’t God, because the whole nature of the godhead, according to this idea, is to play that he is not. So in this idea then, everybody is fundamentally
the ultimate reality, not God in a political kingly sense, but God in the sense of being the self, the deep-down basic, whatever there is. And you are all that, only you are pretending that you are not."

[allislove]

11 hours ago, billiesimon said:

Hey, @Leo Gura,  I was contemplating my perceptions tonight, alone in bed, and noticing how other people in photos are just my own perceptions, not real entities. But still I can't feel other people as me, because of survival agenda I have. I can on psychedelics. 

Contemplate the "my" in "my perceptions" phrase, the answer that you are longing for is there.

But i notice during my contemplations that people in photos are just my perception and not real objects. 

Before labeling something real or unreal figure out what "real" is, for that you have to investigate your own nature. 

This is my question:

Does the game of separateness collapse ON THEIR end too? 

There is no their end, it's infinity, without the begging and end, without "they"/"I" separation.

I mean... You become conscious of being them. And that's ok. 

It's noticed that everything is you, that's all.

At that point do they drop the mask? Do they mirror your understanding? Or do they keep acting unconscious? 

Focus on the direct experience - that's where the answer lies, not in the thinking about "them". Drop your own masks, see that there is nothing but understanding. "acting unconscious" is one of the masks that should be dropped to see your true nature. 

It makes sense to me that they should drop the mask once you become totally omniscient. Why should they keep the facade up? 

Totally omniscient is a thought. "It makes sense to me"... look who is that "me" that claims to have some opinion, is it other than thinking? Is there a difference between thinking and the sound the bird's song? Who are you after all? That's the good questions to direct attention.

Sorry for the weird question 

Good questions. Perhaps, the daily meditation practice may be beneficial to see the reply sooner. 

 

[mandyjw]

@Anahata

So happy you came to the forum. 

[allislove]

3 hours ago, billiesimon said:

But what I mean is that an awakened "person" is capable of showing that they are realized.

Not the awakened "person" but only one awareness leads the show so to speak.  

I was just wondering if other people, EVEN THOUGH they are conceptual and not actual, can show this sign of realization once you realize the True Self.

Not you, as apparent separated person, realizes True Self - True Self realizes True Self. Once it's self realized - there is no other people, "world"/"me" separation vanishes.

I guess it's still a game of duality that my mind is playing. Nonetheless, I found it possible.

Find "my mind" in the direct experience. ??

 

[Breakingthewall]

@Mason Riggle interesting point of view of Alan watts but I don't share it. that that reality dreams for fun and is bored with perfect dreams is to humanize reality. It seems to me that design tends towards something, very deliberate, passionate, enormously ambitious and powerful, and deliberation. But it's humanize too. who knows towards what. Probably it is something that creates itself from itself in an improvised way. 

Edited July 9, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[Mason Riggle]

@Breakingthewall it's all metaphor, of course.   'fun' and 'bored' are just human concepts like 'deliberate' and 'passionate'.  

Alan is giving us a map.. the map is not the territory.