Joseph Campbell is awful

[AtheisticNonduality]

8 minutes ago, Loba said:

blue boy.

I actually understand this reference.

[AtheisticNonduality]

7 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

There are no real examples of anything above Turquoise.  Ken's chart should be taken with a grain of salt.  He's only like Low-Mid-Turquoise himself.

The original SD model did not overly spiritualize Turquoise like Leo did, and Leo has even stated his understanding when making the Turquoise video was shallower than his current depth about it and not very adequate of a description. Turquoise just refers to holism, where the entire universe and experience becomes like a flexible and flowing organism of force and energy. This builds on top of the Teal/Yellow formulation of systems and integral parts, but it goes a step further by expanding the holistic essence of and identifying with it all, seeing all the systemic patterns come together into one whole pattern. The higher transpersonal stages, on the other hand, are mapped by Wilber using evidence and reason in SES, with case studies and showing the logic behind how one moves from different stages to others. 

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They were like Green new-agers with bipolar

Any particular reason that'd be on your mind recently? ?‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍?

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Jesus had some serious fucking anger issue, from what I hear.  And Ghandi was a child molestor.

Well, Jesus toppled the tables where the currency swappers had set up in the temple and chased them all out with a scourge, yet he also refused to fight the officers when he was about to get arrested, healing the wound Peter had inflicted on one of them. So he had anger with proper timing, instead of being overwhelmed by it all the time. As for Gandhi, he only slept in the same bed as children to defy temptation, at least that having been his intention. 

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Would you say you're somewhere within Turquoise, in SD?

Probably low Turquoise hinted at, but I have access to the transpersonal states.

[thisintegrated]

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

The original SD model did not overly spiritualize Turquoise like Leo did

All that "clear light" nonsense is way more spiritual.  In SD, Turquoise includes all those higher stages.  So if Psychic and clear light are spiritual, then so is Turquoise.

 

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Leo stated his understanding when making the Turquoise video was shallower than his current depth about it and not very adequate of a description. 

Yeah I've mentioned this too.  Solipsism is likely his new "highest level" video.

imo, there needs to be a new model.  E.g. Yellow can be Yellow.  Teal can be intellectual Turquoise, without any solipsistic/spiritual/deep ideas.  Turquoise could be the integration of Teal, and transcendence of the intellect.  And Coral could be the transcendence of natural human abilities, covering the "indigo"/"light" stuff.

 

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Turquoise just refers to holism, where the entire universe and experience becomes like a flexible and flowing organism of force and energy. 

Holism is inherently spiritual.  Seeing all as one consciousness is as spiritual as it gets.

 

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

 The higher transpersonal stages, on the other hand, are mapped by Wilber using evidence and reason

..what.  You mean he's proven his own psychic powers, and somehow got the clear white stage independently verified?

 

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Any particular reason that'd be on your mind recently? ?‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍??‍?

Probably???

If you know, you know.

 

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

As for Gandhi, he only slept in the same bed as children to defy temptation, at least that having been his intention. 

That's the nicest interpretation of the accounts you could've possibly given him?

I've heard ones less flattering.

 

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Probably low Turquoise hinted at

How do you distinguish between late Yellow and early Turquoise?

What stage would you assign Leo???

And when I say Turquoise, I mean the Turquoise that includes indigo and everything.  The Turquoise that's the final stage, not Ken's "average Joe" Turquoise.

 

33 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Probably low Turquoise hinted at, but I have access to the transpersonal states.

What exactly do you mean by transpersonal states?  Is that just Fe?  Becoming other people?

 

Edited June 7, 2022 by thisintegrated

[Oeaohoo]

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

I have attained "Indigo" transpersonal waves, have a sense of Turquoise as a…

Reflecting on it, I would put you at stage orange.

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

The metaphysicality of it was purely a conscious elaboration; the individuation of their egos had unconscious elements to it. It also did integrate them into societies. These are actions that actually happened, even if the unconsciousness of more primitive peoples would not allow for it. Also, there are no gods.

Yes, “not JUST to integrate them into society”. Of course myths function at multiple levels, my point is that people like Campbell and Neumann ignored the highest levels of the meaning of myth because they were unable to understand them. I am not saying that psychoanalysis has no value, but Jung openly confessed to be ignorant of metaphysics and he was by far the most profound of the psychoanalysts

It has nothing to do with “primitive peoples”, this is another problem with psychoanalysis. The most materially and technologically advanced civilisations of the ancient world all had an intricate mythology which was woven into everything they did. So-called “primitives” are mainly valuable as a surviving example of the same type of thinking, but we should not rely too heavily on them because they are much more distantly separated from the origins which they themselves claim to be so important (almost every “primitive” mythology includes an original being who established the laws and customs of the tribe).

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

There are beings out there and in here, but none of them are gods.

What is the difference between a god and the beings you describe? Maybe this is just a problem of language.

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Fascism, communism, liberal democracy, their variants, and brute power / finance are all superior to tribal warfare and imperial / dynastic / kingly battles in ancient or medieval times. This is just silly.

Yes, drone strikes and carpet bombings commanded and even executed by people with no skin in the game are far superior to medieval knights inspired by St. Bernard’s mystical prose to use material warfare as the ultimate test of their spiritual virility. How silly of me!

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

You are Stage Green that has unhealthily integrated Blue due to your copious multifariousness of mind, whereas I have different lines developed in multiplicitous fashion.

Also, there are no gods.

It's strange you can't understand this; wait, actually it's not. I apologize. Actually. Not sarcastically. Really.

This is just silly.

This is unhealthy worship of false / less true perspectives.

You are a postmodernist.

Yes, this is what you did last time we spoke. You just say everything I said is silly because you say so. Must be your “stage red” warlord coming out! The only thing to do is fight fire with fire and I can’t be bothered to do that.

9 hours ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

You are a postmodernist.

I don’t know what to say to this, particularly when it is a direct reply to a criticism of postmodernism as the total denial of truth.

Here is a nice passage from the Rig Veda describing how even the gods did not exist in the beginning and thus are in fact unreal (in the deepest sense of that term):

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Nasadiya Sukta (Hymn of non-Eternity, origin of universe):

There was neither non-existence nor existence then;
Neither the realm of space, nor the sky which is beyond;
What stirred? Where? In whose protection?

There was neither death nor immortality then;
No distinguishing sign of night nor of day;
That One breathed, windless, by its own impulse;
Other than that there was nothing beyond.

Darkness there was at first, by darkness hidden;
Without distinctive marks, this all was water;
That which, becoming, by the void was covered;
That One by force of heat came into being;

Who really knows? Who will here proclaim it?
Whence was it produced? Whence is this creation?
Gods came afterwards, with the creation of this universe.
Who then knows whence it has arisen?

Whether God's will created it, or whether He was mute;
Perhaps it formed itself, or perhaps it did not;
The Supreme Brahman of the world, all pervasive and all knowing 
He indeed knows, if not, no one knows.

[AtheisticNonduality]

18 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Oh OH !! I know this one !!

CARL!!

 

17 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

Yeah I've mentioned this too.  Solipsism is likely his new "highest level" video.

Not Infinity of Gods?

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..what.  You mean he's proven his own psychic powers, and somehow got the clear white stage independently verified?

You should just read SES so you actually know it, but it's around 600 pages long and 800 including the notes section.

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How do you distinguish between late Yellow and early Turquoise?

Like Blue and Red, with the lower and higher extremes of each being bluer or redder purple, as I say. But for specificity, Yellow becomes obsolete when the frailty of the system is seen through in addition to going beyond faults of over-reliance on understanding the system itself and ignorance of the realms where focusing on the Nothingness and Everythingness is the soul both above and within the system, so after these transcendences, one has to attain realms totally outside the system. Moving away from even the system itself, at least temporarily to explore the new realms before integrating both into a greater essence, is then a priority.

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What stage would you assign Leo???

(Leo is) Ken's average Turquoise. But bordering on Yellow. Yet still some Indigo with Violet intuitions, as perverted by stability in a regular Turquoise base and with a strong foundation in Yellow systems ideas. Most people's developments are asymmetrical to a good degree, although centers of gravity still exist, his being a solid Turquoise/Yellow.

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What exactly do you mean by transpersonal states?  Is that just Fe?  Becoming other people?

Transpersonal: beyond personal, Nothingness, Everythingness, divinity, mystical states. Prepersonal: before personal, animals, plants, rocks, etc. Personal: standard human based in an ego and other objective traits of personhood, has evolved out of the prepersonal structurally but has not gone outside of the system into what is beyond the limits of the human mind/body.

So no, not just Fe.

11 hours ago, Oeaohoo said:

Reflecting on it, I would put you at stage orange.

Nope, not Orange with Blue shadow or overly amplified Blue. I was too Green and anti-capitalistic at one point for me to be Orange now. You just happen to be Green and see anything your critiquing without the limits of Green as inherently beneath you, which is logically a failure.

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Yes, “not JUST to integrate them into society”. Of course myths function at multiple levels, my point is that people like Campbell and Neumann ignored the highest levels of the meaning of myth because they were unable to understand them. I am not saying that psychoanalysis has no value, but Jung openly confessed to be ignorant of metaphysics and he was by far the most profound of the psychoanalysts

No, the lower people interpret them literally. The higher people interpret them how they actually exist.

Quote

It has nothing to do with “primitive peoples”, this is another problem with psychoanalysis. The most materially and technologically advanced civilisations of the ancient world all had an intricate mythology which was woven into everything they did. So-called “primitives” are mainly valuable as a surviving example of the same type of thinking, but we should not rely too heavily on them because they are much more distantly separated from the origins which they themselves claim to be so important (almost every “primitive” mythology includes an original being who established the laws and customs of the tribe).

What should we rely on to comprehend the belief systems of primitive peoples, if not those peoples? The "original being" of the tribe? How do we contact this original being? And the materially advanced civilizations suffer from the same belief issues as the primitives, if we abstain from identifying them with primitives entirely.

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What is the difference between a god and the beings you describe? Maybe this is just a problem of language.

The accuracy/completeness of the primitive models is unacceptable.

Quote

Yes, drone strikes and carpet bombings commanded and even executed by people with no skin in the game are far superior to medieval knights inspired by St. Bernard’s mystical prose to use material warfare as the ultimate test of their spiritual virility. How silly of me!

Being inspired by mystical prose to test spiritual virility in medieval combat is still nested in a society developmentally inferior to ours, however romantically profound and stimulating it might suggest itself as.

Quote

Yes, this is what you did last time we spoke. You just say everything I said is silly because you say so. Must be your “stage red” warlord coming out! The only thing to do is fight fire with fire and I can’t be bothered to do that.

Is that so?

Quote

I don’t know what to say to this, particularly when it is a direct reply to a criticism of postmodernism as the total denial of truth.

You hate modernity, and that's why you uphold pre-modernity, simultaneously despite and because of your postmodernity.

Quote

Here is a nice passage from the Rig Veda describing how even the gods did not exist in the beginning and thus are in fact unreal (in the deepest sense of that term):

Of course.

 

Also, Keyholde/Loba called me "blue boy" and revealed her whole criticism of my character was centered around teenage girl sociology. ?‍??‍??‍??‍?

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Not Infinity of Gods?

It might've been his highest level realization, but the concept itself of an infinity of Gods was kind of obvious.  It's like a stage Green/Yellow concept, tbh.

 

7 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

You should just read SES so you actually know it, but it's around 600 pages long and 800 including the notes section.

I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere, but if you can't summarize it simply then I doubt its value.  No book can really prove something as vague and abstract as "clear light".  The possibility for transcendence of the ego may be self-evident, and the same for psychic powers, potentially, but I don't see how with enough contemplation "Clear Light" becomes an apparently natural/inevitable progression of consciousness.  Some guy's thoughts are just that, a guy's thoughts.  There's no way the author of SES is at Clear Light anyway.  If Leo, at Yellow, is able to literally achieve telepathy with Gods, then someone at "Overmind" should be able to able to literally bend space and time to their will, and "Clear Light" would be like a thousand times more powerful than even that! lol.  Even aliens thousands of years more developed than us aren't anywhere near where that author's supposedly at??

[AtheisticNonduality]

2 hours ago, thisintegrated said:

It might've been his highest level realization, but the concept itself of an infinity of Gods was kind of obvious.  It's like a stage Green/Yellow concept, tbh.

It wasn't to him.

Quote

I'm sure you have a point in there somewhere, but if you can't summarize it simply then I doubt its value.

And Leo has a whole video of "not all things can be explained simply."

Quote

No book can really prove something as vague and abstract as "clear light".

It just means nondual unification of Brahman as formless, in its "causal" infinity, with the world. All things are Brahman = psychic and subtle stages. Brahman is beyond the world = causal stage, and Brahman is both beyond and is the world itself = Clear Light / nondual mysticism. But keep in mind Wilber almost certainly hadn't even discovered Spiral Dynamics at that point since there is no mention of it, so "Ultraviolet" and "Clear Light" and such are all add-ons that came afterward descriptively, poetically, metaphorically, and were not part of the original logical bedrock for why the progression happens in that way. But the simplest explanation is that psychic is the beginning of transcendence and unity through a common spiritual factor, which is realized as the over-soul, the Emptiness that is all; subtle mysticism is when the psyche might "anthropomorphize" (this isn't that pertinent of a word, since the process, we might say, could actually be reversed so that when we recognize divinity, we see that everything, as well as humans, is divinified---where interaction of God is similar or homologous to interaction with ordinary humans) God into a being one interacts with; causal mysticism is when even the personal nature of God becomes formless as a singularity of infinity; and nondual mysticism is the Clear Light hyper-unification of that formless with the material world.

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If Leo, at Yellow, is able to literally achieve telepathy with Gods

He wasn't at Yellow really when that was happening.

Edited June 7, 2022 by AtheisticNonduality

[thisintegrated]

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

And Leo has a whole video of "not all things can be explained simply."

That's a lazy excuse tbh.  I could explain the meaning of existence, the origin of the universe, etc. all in just a few sentences each.  Leo's work isn't that complicated, and most of it can be summed up easily in the same way.  This SES guy ain't gonna be multiple orders of magnitude more advanced than Leo and Leo's concepts.

 

I think we may need input from @Loba and @Oeaohoo to settle this, without bias.

 

1 hour ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

He wasn't at Yellow really when that was happening.

Green?

Edited June 7, 2022 by thisintegrated

[AtheisticNonduality]

6 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

This SES guy ain't gonna be multiple orders of magnitude more advanced than Leo and Leo's concepts.

???????

[thisintegrated]

7 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

???????

A bold statement.  You've never in your life made a statement this bold??

I hope you're prepared for what comes next.

[AtheisticNonduality]

19 minutes ago, thisintegrated said:

I think we may need input from @Loba and @Oeaohoo to settle this, without bias.

Loba thinks I'm a blue boy, and Oeaohoo was making alchemical arguments in another thread against male homosexuality; but he says female homosexuality is fine. 

[thisintegrated]

32 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Loba thinks I'm a blue boy, and Oeaohoo was making alchemical arguments in another thread against male homosexuality; but he says female homosexuality is fine. 

Like I said.. without bias?

[Oeaohoo]

This is petty nonsense and has nothing to do with the original subject of this thread.

Edited June 8, 2022 by Oeaohoo

[AtheisticNonduality]

.

 

Edited June 8, 2022 by AtheisticNonduality

[AtheisticNonduality]

.

Edited June 8, 2022 by AtheisticNonduality

[thisintegrated]

Guys.. what are you even arguing about at this point..????

[AtheisticNonduality]

@thisintegrated What are you talking about? I don't see anything.

[thisintegrated]

3 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

@thisintegrated What are you talking about? I don't see anything.

Doesn't look like anything to me.

[AtheisticNonduality]

1 minute ago, thisintegrated said:

Doesn't look like anything to me.

Why is there Nothing rather than Something? ??????????

Edited June 8, 2022 by AtheisticNonduality

[thisintegrated]

5 minutes ago, AtheisticNonduality said:

Why is there Nothing rather than Something. ??????

Leo will be blown away when he sees this?