There are no creations, only discoveries

[cookiemonster]

Recently, a couple of music producers designed a computer algorithm that generated every conceivable melody within an agreed range of finite variables. (Specifically two octaves, eight bars.) These melodies were generated as MIDI files and stored on numerous hard-drives, the idea being that anytime a future songwriter composed a new melody or song, most likely it would automatically be in violation of copyright laws before it even had a chance to go on sale. (!)

Thankfully the two music producers had good intentions, and the stunt was designed to raise awareness toward the stupidity of copyright.

In a sense, any melody is no different from a prime number. Just as a mathematician does not create a prime number, so too does a composer not create a melody. Like numbers, every conceivable melody already exists. It's merely a question of discovering it. Therefore, melodies, like numbers, cannot be owned by anyone.

When we broaden this out into the arena of ontology, we can liken finite-experiences to that of melodies and numbers. All finite-experiences already exist. It's merely just an exercise in discovery.

When we dream we are not creators, but explorers. There is no such thing as creation. Every finite experience is like a pearl at the bottom of an infinite ocean, perpetually being re-discovered endlessly.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 5, 2021 by cookiemonster

[WelcometoReality]

@cookiemonster What a humbling thing to discover. ???

[cookiemonster]

42 minutes ago, WelcometoReality said:

@cookiemonster What a humbling thing to discover. ???

 

Glad to share such discoveries with you. May all your future discoveries be brilliant and awesome.  ?

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, cookiemonster said:

Therefore, melodies, like numbers, cannot be owned by anyone.

Isn't it obvious that the entire notion of "ownership" is a self-biased farce?

[cookiemonster]

 

21 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

Isn't it obvious that the entire notion of "ownership" is a self-biased farce?

 

Sure, but that wasn't really the main point.

The main point was to use the example of melody permutations in parallel with finite-experience permutations as a way to demonstrate that imagination isn't so much an exercise in creation as it is an exercise in exploration.

Your finite-experience, the "Leo Gura Experience" is a unique finite-experience analogous to a unique finite melody, or a unique finite prime number.

Despite the fact that such an experience is a unique product of imagination, the imagination never actually 'created' such experience, but rather discovered it from a directory of never-ending permutations.

Or in other words: God doesn't create. God explores.

[Leo Gura]

22 minutes ago, cookiemonster said:

God doesn't create.

Oh, God creates.

You have yet to realize that part

[The0Self]

56 minutes ago, cookiemonster said:

Or in other words: God doesn't create. God explores.

Nice. But is there really a difference? God makes apparent sense out of infinity — is that creation or discovery? I see no difference, but no one is doing either of those, they just appear.

Edited July 6, 2021 by The0Self

[cookiemonster]

 

 

@The0Self Well it's interesting, because as a musician I've always associated the act of composing music as an act of creation. But this video above (referencing the aforementioned exercise in melody permutations) inspired a radical think. Technically, if the music already exists, then how can composing it be an act of creation? After all, one doesn't create prime numbers. It's merely just a rediscovered performance!

But yeah, maybe it's just semantics: Creation = Discovery = Creation. Or maybe as @Leo Gura alludes to, God has a special bag of unique creative tricks? IDK. 

[The0Self]

8 minutes ago, cookiemonster said:

 

 

@The0Self Well it's interesting, because as a musician I've always associated the act of composing music as an act of creation. But this video above (referencing the aforementioned exercise in melody permutations) inspired a radical think. Technically, if the music already exists, then how can composing it be an act of creation? After all, one doesn't create prime numbers. It's merely just a rediscovered performance!

But yeah, maybe it's just semantics: Creation = Discovery = Creation. Or maybe as @Leo Gura alludes to, God has a special bag of unique creative tricks? IDK. 

God does create, but the creator, creation, and creating are all the infinite appearing as that, inseparable from one another.

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, cookiemonster said:

 

 

That is like saying: I own every planet in universe outside of Earth, because I said so first.

In practice, ownership means nothing unless you're willing to fight and kill over it.

[gettoefl]

difference is number of musical notes is finite so rearranging them will be a finite set too just like in chess the number of moves is a finite set so chess too is a completely trivial though fascinating game

god can slice up his consciousness pieces an infinite number of ways so he will never run into the same scene twice

could two human beings ever have the same dna?

Edited July 6, 2021 by gettoefl

[Nahm]

 

19 hours ago, cookiemonster said:

When we dream we are not creators, but explorers. There is no such thing as creation.

That there is a we & somewhere / anything explored is somewhat a priori there, no? 

[cookiemonster]

5 hours ago, gettoefl said:

difference is number of musical notes is finite so rearranging them will be a finite set too just like in chess the number of moves is a finite set so chess too is a completely trivial though fascinating game

god can slice up his consciousness pieces an infinite number of ways so he will never run into the same scene twice

could two human beings ever have the same dna?

 

Yes but isn't it true that God is omniscient, and so therefore knows all infinite permutations even within an infinite set?

It seems to me that if God knows what can be created, then the creation already exists in potential, and therefore cannot be considered 'creation' but rather merely retrieval / access.

[cookiemonster]

11 hours ago, Nahm said:

That there is a we & somewhere / anything explored is somewhat a priori there, no? 

 

I'm not quite sure what you mean here. What do you mean by priori in this context? 

[Nahm]

@cookiemonster

‘A priori’ as in presumptive. 

 

[gettoefl]

16 hours ago, cookiemonster said:

 

Yes but isn't it true that God is omniscient, and so therefore knows all infinite permutations even within an infinite set?

It seems to me that if God knows what can be created, then the creation already exists in potential, and therefore cannot be considered 'creation' but rather merely retrieval / access.

the great thing about infinity is that even when you have been doing stuff for as near to infinite time as you want, there is still an infinite amount of time and possibilities still ahead of you, better still there is zero chance of every getting repeats, has there ever been or could there be two humans with identical dna? it could not happen since we all come from a distinct family tree

Brings to mind the words of the last verse of the beautiful Amazing grace:

When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we first begun

Edited July 7, 2021 by gettoefl

[michaelcycle00]

On 7/7/2021 at 6:05 AM, gettoefl said:

the great thing about infinity is that even when you have been doing stuff for as near to infinite time as you want, there is still an infinite amount of time and possibilities still ahead of you, better still there is zero chance of every getting repeats, has there ever been or could there be two humans with identical dna? it could not happen since we all come from a distinct family tree

Brings to mind the words of the last verse of the beautiful Amazing grace:

When we've been there ten thousand years
Bright shining as the sun
We've no less days to sing God's praise
Than when we first begun

Quick question, have you personally experienced this while on Psychs or is this just something you think is likely to be the case? I've read literally hundreds of trip reports and I'm still not sold on this idea since it kind of contradicts others... how I wish it didn't though. Apparently some people have broke through and become God/Infinity/All That Is/Everything and Nothing, whatever you like to call it. Apparently they reach a state of omniscience. They even say they "knew everything that was, is, and ever will be". That's not possible unless experiences are finite. If they were infinite, you could never know everything as it's not a set number of things/events/experiences. So, are time and space the only infinite things in creation? While experiences and things that could exist aren't? I always thought infinity was infinite in every way, meaning, there's an infinite number of inconceivable things to, us humans, for example. Infinite colors, dimensions, unimaginable things, etc. Is there or is there not a limit? Can there be something that hasn't always been? Some argue no, Leo says "God does create". Leo if you're here I'd love your POV on this. Thanks in advance.