How come there is no Difference between Pain and Pleasure?

[SQAAD]

I am watching the video below now. I don't understand why Leo says that there is no difference between pain and pleasure. Eating an ice-cream is a very distinct thing from getting hit in the face with a baseball bat. Very different sensations. Even if i transcend the distinction between life and death, i believe that the difference between having an orgasm or getting tortured by some Mexican drug cartel will still be very very very different at any level of Consciousness.

I don't understand what Leo means. Can someone explain to me?

 

Edited July 2, 2021 by SQAAD

[Gesundheit2]

9 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

i believe that the difference between having an orgasm or getting tortured by some Mexican drug cartel will still be very very very different at any level of Consciousness.

Exactly! You believe, therefore that's your reality. If you believe otherwise, it will be otherwise.

Difference is imaginary, and you are the one imagining it. It's not likely that you will stop imagining it at a normal state of consciousness, because you're biased towards survival/life. But at a radically high (or radically low) state, when you forget yourself, you won't distinguish between anything.

[SQAAD]

@Gesundheit2

1 minute ago, Gesundheit2 said:

Exactly! You believe, therefore that's your reality. If you believe otherwise, it will be otherwise.

Difference is imaginary, and you are the one imagining it. It's not likely that you will stop imagining it at a normal state of consciousness, because you're biased towards survival/life. But at a radically high (or radically low) state, when you forget yourself, you won't distinguish between anything.

The difference of pain and pleasure is not only a belief though. It's my everyday direct experience.

[kinesin]

@SQAAD  The views of this community flow directly from Leo's beliefs, which are themselves typical of a more recent branch of extreme nondualism.

I agree with you personally - I believe that although everything is ultimately one and that on the objective level everything is without separation or form, that the subjective reality we experience is as real as 'real' ever was, and that we shoudn't seek to transcend the dream or be ashamed of ourselves for treating it as if it were real.  That said, the views of this community don't agree with that - from their nondual perspective we simply don't get it.

I bought a frisbee today.  A few hours later, I shaved my own mother's head because she's dying from cancer.  I believe there's a real (as real as real can be) difference in nature between those two events, subjective though it may be, and that anyone who pretends not to be able to see that difference is deeply lost in delusion.

Edited July 2, 2021 by kinesin

[Leo Gura]

50 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

@Gesundheit2

The difference of pain and pleasure is not only a belief though. It's my everyday direct experience.

Reality is nothing but imagined differences. If you become conscious enough all the differences become irrelevant as you realize you are dreaming them up.

Imagination of difference is not the same thing as belief. Imagination happens at a much deeper, physical and even metaphysical level. Which is why changing your beliefs will not remove the difference between pleasure and pain. But there actually is no difference between anything. Period. If you think or feel there is, that is you dreaming and constructing "reality."

The construction I am speaking of is absolute. That means you, as God, make it manifest by dreaming it.

Since you are God, whatever you imagine is literally reality. Right now you are imagining you are human. And an important part of being human is imagining that pain and pleasure are really different.

You actually have to be insane to think that anything is different from anything else. But since humans are all insane together, this creates a false sense that you are sane.

[Gesundheit2]

10 hours ago, SQAAD said:

@Gesundheit2

The difference of pain and pleasure is not only a belief though. It's my everyday direct experience.

Yeah, I know, it's my everyday experience too. But, I've also experienced states where that distinction collapsed.

From what I've gleaned so far, this is how it works:

• You imagine that pain and pleasure are different. (Conditioning/belief).
• You can't imagine that pain and pleasure are the same. (Not enough open-mindedness).
• You want to imagine that they are different. (Survival/Self-bias).
• You don't want to imagine that they are the same. (Comfort zone/resistance to change).

So, not only you can't imagine that possibility, but also deep down, you don't have the desire to accept it in the first place. Because for you to imagine that possibility, you'd have to imagine a different possibility than the one you currently know and identify with, which is the whole problem in a nutshell.

Reality is made of differences. You survive as a self by emphasizing the differences that survive you the most, and by ignoring the differences that don't really affect you, at least at face value.

Take a look at the image below:

If you're a computer, you will know that no two pixels inside that image are the same. Every pixel has its own coordinates and properties. But to you as a human, and since it doesn't make much of a difference to your survival, you will say it's just a black image.

At the same time, to a computer, all of what I'm writing here is just zeros and ones (transistor pulses). I could type anything, and it won't make a difference to a computer. When to you, there's a meaning to every letter to the point where I can possibly hurt your emotions with these innocent characters if I decide to arrange them in a certain way.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Gesundheit2

[Breakingthewall]

it all depends on the software. Ours takes a development of millions of years and is in our genes, but if it is transcended for a moment it is seen that everything is the same, there are no differences, but for the survival of the body (which is not really different from what surrounds it) , it is necessary to capture them. at another level there is no difference between pain and pleasure, nor between your body and the bed where you sleep or the street. it's a kind of magic trick that creates differentiation. that's why calling it an illusion, because reality is a undifferentiated soup ,perfectly fragmented by some kind of software, the mind of god imagining

Edited July 3, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[SQAAD]

@Leo Gura

22 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Reality is nothing but imagined differences. If you become conscious enough all the differences become irrelevant as you realize you are dreaming them up.

But there actually is no difference between anything. Period. If you think or feel there is, that is you dreaming and constructing "reality."

 

I don't understand what you mean by saying that there is no difference between anything. Maybe you mean from some absolute perspective. From my direct experience there is a big difference between pain and pleasure and other things. All these differences are very relevant. Even if i don't care about survival, pain and torture is still not fun. Nobody likes it. Not become of selfishness though. But because its unpleasant by default.

All these differences are there baked into Reality. So what difference does it make if they are imaginary or not? It makes no difference because they can't be unimagined anyway.

Since i have never removed the difference between pain and pleasure i think it does exist.

Edited July 3, 2021 by SQAAD

[Moksha]

20 minutes ago, SQAAD said:

It makes no difference because they can't be unimagined anyway.

Have you ever experienced a lucid dream? Once, as a kid, I not only dreamed that I was dreaming. I dreamed that I dreamed that I was dreaming.  You abide by the parameters of the dreamscape, but paradoxically, you are aware that it is only a dream. That awareness frees you, even within the dream. Deeply within, there is serenity, despite where the dream takes you.

You can't entirely unimagine relative reality, because you would dissolve yourself in the process, but you can see it clearly for what it is. When you open your eyes, within the dream, you realize the freedom of your ultimate nature. You can still enjoy the dream, for what it is, without being bound by it.

[The0Self]

On 7/2/2021 at 4:01 PM, SQAAD said:

The difference of pain and pleasure is not only a belief though. It's my everyday direct experience.

You’re right, it’s a personal experience. What is beyond personal experience is being... and beyond being is infinity. It’s timeless everything, with no real perspective, and is everything / is not separate from everything, so it can’t see a difference between anything.

If 1. everyone’s awareness is the same awareness (which it obviously is unless by awareness you mean something else), and 2. there’s no distance between awareness and what appears, then... There is no separation between what appears. This even includes the apparent end of the universe and its beginning (timelessly!). But of course an individual can’t see this.

Edited July 3, 2021 by The0Self

[Leo Gura]

3 hours ago, SQAAD said:

All these differences are there baked into Reality

No they aren't. They are projections of your mind.

[Thought Art]

On 7/2/2021 at 5:47 PM, Leo Gura said:

Reality is nothing but imagined differences. If you become conscious enough all the differences become irrelevant as you realize you are dreaming them up.

10 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

No they aren't. They are projections of your mind.

Not our nervous system?

Projections of God's mind.. But, here we are.

I don't get it if I am dreaming them up... Then why I am stuck in this limited god damn dream I have no power over... I mean, I have some power but like, 5% of what I would like to have.

[charlie cho]

just as much there is no difference between a sight of a dead body and a beautiful art of Leonardo Da Vinci, there is no difference between you going in the hot bath water and feeling good and being shot by a gun in your leg. Sure you would rather not see a dead carcass in front of you, but still, sight is sight. Forensic scientists do this everyday and this is what makes them serves society in an honorable way. But to forensic scientists, for example, their sight of bugs swarming inside a human body and the stench the human body makes is actually a good. First of all, without the stench bugs and insects do not come. Insects and worms serves two benefits to our Earth. Because they are hungry for rotten food, they eat all of them and procreate inside the body. As much insects are living in the body, it keeps eating until the body is completely destroyed and disappear. Second benefit is that the types of insects and their growth stage demonstrates the time and period of the carcass dead, so the detectives can estimate the time to see in what area the criminal may be at. In other words, to the detective or the forensic scientist, sure the stench is displeasing, but they see the dead body as their friend. A friend that will teach them where the criminal bastard is. I'm serious that's how they see it. So to them, it's a pleasure that they can serve society in that way, even so it would be displeasurable to the masses. 

Another example would be stretching your legs in yoga. Yes, it is painful. It is good that you do not go overboard with this. But a certain tension to loosen up your body is extremely beneficial for your health. But you must understand the pain will be there when you decide to become healthier. The pain is necessary and should be embraced. Many yoga practitioners rather love that pain because they know their muscles are loosening. They know this pain will serve to not only make them better at yoga, but also be healthy in daily life. 

Same with Kobe Bryant playing basketball. It's painful when he wakes up and goes on a bike ride in London before the Olympic basketball game, but he knows that frustrating bike ride will eventually translate to him becoming a better basketball player. Therefore, he feels the bike ride to be rather pleasurable than painful. Most people will find it painful.  

Pain and Pleasure is subjective. Yes, the body may feel pain. But the body will feel pain when it gets massaged. But I personally love that pain and feel pleasure from it. Same with women who likes feeling pain when having sex

Edited July 3, 2021 by charlie cho

[Leo Gura]

35 minutes ago, Thought Art said:

I don't get it if I am dreaming them up... Then why I am stuck in this limited god damn dream I have no power over... I mean, I have some power but like, 5% of what I would like to have.

It's very easy to understand. Power = consciousness. All states of consciousness which are less than infinite will have finite power. And infinite power isn't really free either because it must all be given selflessly to Love. So the idea of manipulating reality for your personal finite gain cannot hold at high states of consciousness. So your ego's power fantasies will never get fulfilled.

But you can surrender to selflessness and Love.

The cost of infinite power is all finite definitions and attachments. Such that once you reach infinite power you have absolutely no personal need to have it.

It's just like with attracting women: the guy who needs sex the least will get it the most. And the guy who needs it the most will get none.

[charlie cho]

12 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's very easy to understand. Power = consciousness. All states of consciousness which are less than infinite will have finite power. And infinite power isn't really free either because it must all be given selflessly to Love. So the idea of manipulating reality for your personal finite gain cannot hold at high states of consciousness. So your ego's power fantasies will never get fulfilled.

Have you read the 48 laws of power from Robert Greene? 

I read it because not that I want to manipulate others, but I just want to be super aware that these politickings exist, and be wary of it, and if possible, use it for my advantage in my purpose.

How do you think the power of consciousness relates to people playing with politics? 

I mean, how do you suppose a man like Lao Tzu going to war with Niccolo Machiavelli? Both were not generals, but at most advisors of the state.

Or suppose, OSHO and Bill Gates fighting politically in a conflict? 

Edited July 4, 2021 by charlie cho

[StarStruck]

26 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's very easy to understand. Power = consciousness. All states of consciousness which are less than infinite will have finite power. And infinite power isn't really free either because it must all be given selflessly to Love. So the idea of manipulating reality for your personal finite gain cannot hold at high states of consciousness. So your ego's power fantasies will never get fulfilled.

But you can surrender to selflessness and Love.

The cost of infinite power is all finite definitions and attachments. Such that once you reach infinite power you have absolutely no personal need to have it.

It's just like with attracting women: the guy who needs sex the least will get it the most. And the guy who needs it the most will get none.

So why do pickup artists get their dick wet all the time and a nice guy with their heart at the right place don't get anything?

It is true that the pickup artists don't desire women as much as a desperate nice guy because he is already getting enough but I wouldn't say the pickup artist is more selfless than a nice guy. 

[Thought Art]

37 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

It's very easy to understand. Power = consciousness. All states of consciousness which are less than infinite will have finite power. And infinite power isn't really free either because it must all be given selflessly to Love. So the idea of manipulating reality for your personal finite gain cannot hold at high states of consciousness. So your ego's power fantasies will never get fulfilled.

But you can surrender to selflessness and Love.

The cost of infinite power is all finite definitions and attachments. Such that once you reach infinite power you have absolutely no personal need to have it.

It's just like with attracting women: the guy who needs sex the least will get it the most. And the guy who needs it the most will get none.

I get this... But, if I am imagining others and the entire universe this seems like a useless arbitrary limitation. I can't reconcile this idea of me imagining a physical reality and other beings simply to ground myself in reality and then being told some of these things. I have to mature and experience more insights as I do the work. The entire thing seems like an ego. 

I don't necessarily want infinite power. But, I do want to sing to massive crowds and experience the unity of love with others. That just seems to far away.

I know my ego is going nuts tonight.

Surrender, liberation and selflessness are likely the only reasonable path. That seems true to me. I know this from 5meodmt experience my state right now is based in ego, limitation and falsehood.

But, I also must escape wage slavery because that is worse than death.

I also don't agree that power= consciousness. Many leaders like trump have lots of relative power, but low awareness.

Perhaps my current interpretation of power is very limited and selfish.

I theoretically could have finite power but still be in a reality where I am 'Arcadefire'. I guess, it is really up to me to create it. They are limited just like me, but have a different life. But that is wishful thinking and not reality or actual. I have to mature and face the fucking brutal reality that I am here and no one is going to save my sorry ass. God isn't gonna come from the clouds and make everything okay. It's my own interpretations anyway that make reality what it is.

I just... I want infinite love and bliss and heaven. I don't want it to stop. I want to shake the world and DO something. But, I am so limited, selfish, biased, scared, short sighted, distractible etc..

How do I reconcile ambition and surrender?

How do I reconcile getting old, going bald etc...

But, I also sense as I let go of needing to be successful my drive lowers and I relax more. I don't drive and practice as hard... 

I have much maturing to do. I still think a lot of your teachings are far too conceptual and I need more reference experiences. 

 

TLDR: Overall, my current state is one of egoic attachment and immaturity.

I know from my 5meodmt experiences what you are saying is true.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Thought Art

[charlie cho]

@StarStruck I would say nice guys and pick up artists are similar in the respect that they are both extremes. They are both hypocrites in some sense.

Nice guys are hypocritical that they are "Nice" but at the same time try to take advantage of women for sex. They are usually the ones who justify themselves as being "Nice" being angry they did not get sex.

Pick up artists are hypocritical in that they were those "Nice Guys" in the past, or at least they have some deep trauma that hurt their ego like those "Nice" folks, so they went to the opposite end to be destructive and hurt other "Nice" people.

All in all, they are both piece of shits.

I would say the normal people are in the middle of these two extremes. They don't do pick up artists too hard like the gurus, nor do they call themselves "Nice" people.

Anybody who has a remote sense of intelligence know that unless you are some Buddha Jesus type of person, you don't immediately categorize yourself as "nice." There is no nothing more non sensical than that. Even the Buddha avoided saying that he was a "Nice" guy. Jesus would never be so arrogant to call himself "I'm a nice guy." It's an arrogant statement to call yourself "Nice." It's a contradiction in terms when a "Nice guys" calls himself a "Nice guy," you understand what I mean 

[StarStruck]

6 minutes ago, charlie cho said:

@StarStruck I would say nice guys and pick up artists are similar in the respect that they are both extremes. They are both hypocrites in some sense.

Nice guys are hypocritical that they are "Nice" but at the same time try to take advantage of women for sex. They are usually the ones who justify themselves as being "Nice" being angry they did not get sex.

Pick up artists are hypocritical in that they were those "Nice Guys" in the past, or at least they have some deep trauma that hurt their ego like those "Nice" folks, so they went to the opposite end to be destructive and hurt other "Nice" people.

All in all, they are both piece of shits.

I would say the normal people are in the middle of these two extremes. They don't do pick up artists too hard like the gurus, nor do they call themselves "Nice" people.

Anybody who has a remote sense of intelligence know that unless you are some Buddha Jesus type of person, you don't immediately categorize yourself as "nice." There is no nothing more non sensical than that. Even the Buddha avoided saying that he was a "Nice" guy. Jesus would never be so arrogant to call himself "I'm a nice guy." It's an arrogant statement to call yourself "Nice." It's a contradiction in terms when a "Nice guys" calls himself a "Nice guy," you understand what I mean 

Nice guy uses niceness as a strategy for personal gain. I agree on that but calling them assholes is kind of weird. Everybody has their own strategy for survival. 

Nice guy needs to stop lying to himself that niceness is a valid and working strategy. Niceness is really pseudo selflessness and girls don't buy it. And the worst part of it is that nice guys are not aware of it so in that sense they have very low consciousness. 

Pickup artists on the other hand don't have to be nice and they know it doesn't work. They know how to play with the girl's buttons to open her up. In that sense pickup artists have higher awareness about dating while they are less consciousness (more immoral than a nice guy who would never do that).

[Leo Gura]

4 hours ago, charlie cho said:

Have you read the 48 laws of power from Robert Greene? 

It's too low consciousness for me to want to read.

Quote

I read it because not that I want to manipulate others, but I just want to be super aware that these politickings exist, and be wary of it, and if possible, use it for my advantage in my purpose.

How do you think the power of consciousness relates to people playing with politics? 

I mean, how do you suppose a man like Lao Tzu going to war with Niccolo Machiavelli? Both were not generals, but at most advisors of the state.

Or suppose, OSHO and Bill Gates fighting politically in a conflict? 

The most conscious people are the most selfless and therefore least interested in fighting or manipulating.

In a sense, consciousness makes you disinterested in struggling for survival. So the most conscious people are often the first to die. The most egotistical people are often the last to die because their entire existence revolves around avoiding death. Which is the whole function of the ego.

The power of high consciousness is not in that it gives you extra powers to avoid death, but rather the ultimate power: not being worried about death because you know it's an illusion.

If you are going to evaluate higher consciousness from the standpoint of survival, you are missing the point. Higher consciousness is an escape hatch from the game of survival.

In the domain of politics the most ruthless and power-hungry end up winning, because they are willing to crack any number of skulls to get what their ego desires. But in the end, all these people end up down-falling. Just look at Trump as a prime example. His massive ego allowed him to win, and also caused him to lose. That's precisely the trade-off with selfishness and deception. It works, but it only works in the short-term.

3 hours ago, StarStruck said:

So why do pickup artists get their dick wet all the time and a nice guy with their heart at the right place don't get anything?

Precisely because women sleep with men who need sex the least.

Pickup guys, since they get so much sex, end up needing it the least. At least they need no girl in particular. And this ironically makes them the most attractive to girls.

Pickup guys are often addicted to sex, but the key difference is that they are not attached to sex with any one particular girl. Which makes them appear highly attractive from any one girl's POV. It works this way in sales too. The more options you have the more sales you will make and higher the price you can charge for your product.