Adeptus makes a good point (reality isn't an illusion)

[RendHeaven]

1 hour ago, snowyowl said:

After all, Real and Imaginary are supposed to be opposites in meaning, and if you deny the use of opposites, distinctions, by saying that opposites are equal, then all language collapses and we can't say anything.

Yup

1 hour ago, snowyowl said:

My way out of this hole (and retain a shred of sanity)

Hah, of course 

[Ry4n]

On 7/4/2021 at 9:52 AM, snowyowl said:

My way out of this hole (and retain a shred of sanity), is to rely on the distinction of absolute and relative truth. In the absolute sense, real vs imaginary doesn't exist, "all is one"; yet relatively speaking, they do exist. That relative sense is of course, what can be spoken of. The absolute can only be described with relative language, that's the problem. 

this is by far the most underrated point in this entire forum, it's literally the source of the forum's obsession with solipsism. All practicality gets thrown out the window into spiritual mental masturbation, and so many people here have been left totally confused and stuck in the contents of their finite mind, believing there's nothing more to it than that. It's kinda sad. 

[Carl-Richard]

9 hours ago, Ry4n said:

this is by far the most underrated point in this entire forum

It's mentioned so often that people forget its power.

[snowyowl]

... and as if by magic, Leo's latest video on relative vs absolute truth was released on sunday, the same day as my last post  

[Inliytened1]

On 7/3/2021 at 10:13 AM, asifarahim said:

 He is the most advanced big picture thinker on selfhelp in this planet.but he has limitations when it comea to technical details. Big picture people sometimes sucks in technical details

The big picture is what we are concerned with here - what is Absolute.  If this is a dream and you have not yet awoken from the dream then it is all you know.  Like Mario inside the video game - that's all he is conscious of so that IS reality for him.  Until one day if he actually managed to break out of the game and see that there was another layer or in this case state of consciousness.  That's all this is.

[SOUL]

Every interaction and perception of anything happens in the imagination of the mind. Everything from all physical senses of our body to the meaning that is gotten from arts or religion to the detailed explanations we get from mathematics and the scientific method. It's all in the imagination.

Also as activity of the imagination is the inner work one does with the awareness, the consciousness expanding mystical experience.  No matter how deep the revelations into 'truth' and 'reality' one thinks they are having through meditation and/or psychedelics it's all just in the imagination.

So when people try to contrast 'real' vs 'imaginary' as if they have some genuine insight let's realize it's imagination. When someone tries to define what is 'truth' for everyone suggesting it's a universal factual reality because of what takes place in their own imagination it actually doesn't reflect the nature of existence.

So as you explore your own conscious experience stay aware that it is only in your imagination.

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by SOUL

[Inliytened1]

43 minutes ago, SOUL said:

Every interaction and perception of anything happens in the imagination of the mind. Everything from all physical senses of our body to the meaning that is gotten from arts or religion to the detailed explanations we get from mathematics and the scientific method. It's all in the imagination.

Also as activity of the imagination is the inner work one does with the awareness, the consciousness expanding mystical experience.  No matter how deep the revelations into 'truth' and 'reality' one thinks they are having through meditation and/or psychedelics it's all just in the imagination.

So when people try to contrast 'real' vs 'imaginary' as if they have some genuine insight let's realize it's imagination. When someone tries to define what is 'truth' for everyone suggesting it's a universal factual reality because of what takes place in their own imagination it actually doesn't reflect the nature of existence.

So as you explore your own conscious experience stay aware that it is only in your imagination.

 

Well its interesting...your not wrong in the sense that imagination literally is reality.   Which is precisely what a dream is.  Inside the dream you cannot tell the difference between real and imaginary because there is nothing to contrast it with. However if your state of consciousness changed in which you stepped outside that entire reality, only then would it be seen as imaginary.  And then you might wonder - well can you then step to another level of consciousness and step outside of that?  And the answer there is no because that is Infinity.  You can perhaps reach infinitely higher infinite states but at this point you are God Consciousness or Absolute Consciousness.   This is what all the sages discuss- Absolute Divinity- Absolute Love - Divine Bliss- Nirvana - Death, Oneness,  Truth, etc... That is not imagination - that is the thing (actually nothing) that imagines!.  Now note here I am just pointing to it.  The Tao is not the Tao, or something like that.    Now, Maybe I'm full of shit and imagining ALL Of THAT!! but hey maybe I'm not?

So of course Mario inside the dream can be told by someone that hey this is all a video game, and if he is open enough he can say yeah sure - so if it is but I am imagining its real then what's the difference?  It IS real isn't it?  And of course he would be right

 

[SOUL]

4 hours ago, Inliytened1 said:

Well its interesting...your not wrong in the sense that imagination literally is reality.   Which is precisely what a dream is.  Inside the dream you cannot tell the difference between real and imaginary because there is nothing to contrast it with. However if your state of consciousness changed in which you stepped outside that entire reality, only then would it be seen as imaginary.  And then you might wonder - well can you then step to another level of consciousness and step outside of that?  And the answer there is no because that is Infinity.  You can perhaps reach infinitely higher infinite states but at this point you are God Consciousness or Absolute Consciousness.   This is what all the sages discuss- Absolute Divinity- Absolute Love - Divine Bliss- Nirvana - Death, Oneness,  Truth, etc... That is not imagination - that is the thing (actually nothing) that imagines!.  Now note here I am just pointing to it.  The Tao is not the Tao, or something like that.    Now, Maybe I'm full of shit and imagining ALL Of THAT!! but hey maybe I'm not?

So of course Mario inside the dream can be told by someone that hey this is all a video game, and if he is open enough he can say yeah sure - so if it is but I am imagining its real then what's the difference?  It IS real isn't it?  And of course he would be right

 

That's quite the buzz word salad you replied with.

All those concepts you suggest are not imaginary.....the absolute this, that and other things are in the imagination of the mind.

They are concepts that get psychologically primed into people's paradigm of understanding. Yea yea.... but you saw it in direct experience so it's absolute truth!...uh huh, the reason you interpreted the experience that way was because of the priming that happened.

I wasn't exposed to those concepts when I initially had direct experience so my perspective wasn't of that interpretation and as I have been exposed to the concepts it doesn't mold the perspective in experience I have.

This isn't about which is right or wrong, true or false and real or illusion. It's all in the imagination.

Our experience of being awareness is formless so we will overlay concepts to help understand it. Some people say those conceptual interpretations are 'truth' which is just the way the mind 'trusts' the experience is 'true'. Every new experience is filtered through this conceptual paradigm to confirm it's 'truth'.

Don't get attached to the conceptual paradigm, it's just a map and the map is not the territory yet the territory is formless so really has no map. It doesn't matter if a million sages use the same map as you do, it's not the formless territory, it's just an interpretation of experience.

I know my reply might sound like a buzz word salad too but I had to use something you may understand.

Our experience is all in the imagination.

 

 

 

 

Edited July 6, 2021 by SOUL

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, SOUL said:

That's quite the buzz word salad you replied with.

All those concepts you suggest are not imaginary.....the absolute this, that and other things are in the imagination of the mind.

They are concepts that get psychologically primed into people's paradigm of understanding. Yea yea.... but you saw it in direct experience so it's absolute truth!...uh huh, the reason you interpreted the experience that way was because of the priming that happened.

I wasn't exposed to those concepts when I initially had direct experience so my perspective wasn't of that interpretation and as I have been exposed to the concepts it doesn't mold the perspective in experience I have.

This isn't about which is right or wrong, true or false and real or illusion. It's all in the imagination.

Our experience of being awareness is formless so we will overlay concepts to help understand it. Some people say those conceptual interpretations are 'truth' which is just the way the mind 'trusts' the experience is 'true'. Every new experience is filtered through this conceptual paradigm to confirm it's 'truth'.

Don't get attached to the conceptual paradigm, it's just a map and the map is not the territory yet the territory is formless so really has no map. It doesn't matter if a million sages use the same map as you do, it's not the formless territory, it's just an interpretation of experience.

I know my reply might sound like a buzz word salad too but I had to use something you may understand.

Our experience is all in the imagination.

Of course the map is not the territory...put that aside and let's talk about the territory...Notice your use of the word "i" and "your" and "our" experience...and yes, as long as there was still a subject and an object involved then I agree.  But what if there was something Absolute? Meaning it was Absolute by definition?  Are you dismissing this possibility? Well it sounds like you are, which counterintuitively has turned into what is absolutely true and not subjective.  In other words by you saying that all is subjective, that in itself is objective and has become your Absolute Truth.

[SOUL]

@Inliytened1  Did you notice your use of those words, too?

Words are just part of the map. It appears you are trying to fit what I'm saying into your map which is why you imagine I have an 'Absolute Truth'.

You may eventually cease to be distracted by the map, the map keys, the location, the destination and the directions on the map.

[VeganAwake]

The map the territory the apparent disagreements all the words and all the emotional experiences are all THIS.

It's not somewhere else it's already THIS. ❤

[Inliytened1]

55 minutes ago, VeganAwake said:

The map the territory the apparent disagreements all the words and all the emotional experiences are all THIS.

It's not somewhere else it's already THIS. ❤

Of course ?

It's all in good fun

[Mafortu]

Debating whether reality is real or illusory is a waste of time. Both words mean the same thing at the end of the day.

 

[RendHeaven]

42 minutes ago, Mafortu said:

Both words mean the same thing at the end of the day.

Maybe. Maybe not.

[Inliytened1]

1 hour ago, Mafortu said:

Debating whether reality is real or illusory is a waste of time. Both words mean the same thing at the end of the day.

 

Everything is context.

[Zigzag Idiot]

28 minutes ago, Inliytened1 said:

Everything is context.

Yep and all of us are right.

,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,

Being as the Actual Presence of True Nature

We are in not using the term "being" in its everyday sense. Usually, "being" means mere existence, and that "existence" is, like everything else, experienced conceptually. The spiritual traditions, on the other hand, use this term to refer to the actual presence of true nature, which can be directly experienced. We are using the term in this latter sense. As human beings we are Presence, we are Being, we are actuality; we are not simply mental constructs. 

Pearl Beyond Price, pg. 27

 

The Experience of True Nature as Nonbeing Does Not Mean that there is No Reality, No Soul or Manifestation 

True nature is absolute being, but also absolute nonbeing. It is both presence and absence of presence. It is both but not exactly, because these are conceptual elaborations of which true nature is innocent. We say it is both being and nonbeing, or neither, only because these are fundamental concerns for the soul. Being is the last thing the soul needs to surrender as she opens up to her true nature. As she does this she learns about nonbeing. She experiences the emptiness and ontological absence of her existence, and everything else in manifestation. So she may believe that true nature is total emptiness, absolute nothingness, complete absence of existence. The experience of true nature as nonbeing or emptiness does not mean that there is no reality, no soul or manifestation. This is a nihilistic perspective that experience and understanding do not support. The wisdom of emptiness or nonbeing is an attempt to understand the final ontological mode of things. We normally believe that things exist when we perceive them. This belief is accompanied by a subtle underlying feeling or sense of what existence is. Things feel real in a substantial way. We consciously or unconsciously feel that the existence of things is a substantial solid quality. Existence becomes the existence of substance and solidity, which becomes opaqueness if we continue in this direction. In other words, we not only perceive that things appear to our perception, and not only believe that this appearance is objective and independent of our imagination and mental construction, but feel at the same time a sense of substance to this appearance, a sense of solidity. Existence for us then is not only the true appearance of things in perception but the imbuing of what appears with a quality we call Being.

The Inner Journey Home, pg. 258

 

None of Us is to be Blamed for Our Shortcomings

Each of the boundless dimensions in our work reveals to us and teaches us something about reality and about experience. We learn that reality has true nature. We’ve been using the concept of true nature in our teaching for a long time, and now I’m introducing Total Being, which is an overlapping, though not completely identical, concept. I am leaving it ambiguous on purpose. True nature is total purity and freedom all the time. If we only say, “Everything is always true nature,” that doesn’t account for the fact that most people don’t experience things that way. We could explain this by saying, “Well, that is because they are not aware of it.” But when we understand reality or true nature, we realize that people don’t really exist the way we think they do. So when we say, “They don’t understand true nature,” we believe that they are responsible for not understanding it. But when we blame somebody for not understanding it that way, we ascribe to them an independent existence apart from Total Being. They don’t have that; nobody does. So actually, it is Total Being that is ignorant—not the individual. An individual does nothing on his own because he is a manifestation of Total Being. So none of us is to be blamed for our shortcomings.

Runaway Realization, pg. 170

 

 

 

 

[Breakingthewall]

reality is real, it is what it is, the whole thing. what is illusion is the separate individual, and this illusion creates a perspective of reality that is unreal, or false, in the sense that it defines what is undefined

[Mason Riggle]

@Breakingthewall just to expand on what you said,

'reality is real'.. yes, and circles are circular... but notice that 'circles' are, by definition, 'circular'.   'Reality' is, by definition, 'real', even if 'what reality is' is 'imaginary', it would still 'really' be imaginary.   One can't escape 'the 'realness' of 'reality' by showing it to be 'illusion' or 'imaginary'.  This is why I often ask, 'Is this forum real, or does it just seem real?'  This honest answer to this question is, "it doesn't matter" or "there is no difference if I can't tell the difference"... or simply, "'real' and 'seeming to be real'(imaginary) are the same thing."   This is a problem for logic and language, and we end up with people saying contradictory sounding things like 'reality is imaginary', to which some people will say, "of course! Real and imaginary are the same thing!" and others will say, "that makes no sense, because 'real' can not mean 'not real'." and here we go round and round.. 



 

[SOUL]

Pardon me for parsing the map I hope this doesn't distract anyone from being present.

'only in the imagination'

Imaginary are things that exist 'only in the imagination'.

Our perception of everything happens 'only in the imagination'.

Both of 'imaginary' and 'illusion' are something that happens in the imagination.

Except that imaginary is something that only exists in the imagination but has no existence apart from the imagination though may be imagined about something that exists outside the imagination.

Where as illusion is something that isn't as it appears as perception in imagination yet may have existence apart from the imagination even if our perceptions of it are only in the imagination.

The conflation of 'imaginary', 'illusion' and 'imagination' into essentially the same meaning of 'does not exist' obscures the 'map' of understanding our perception and experience.

The rock exists apart from our imagination but we only perceive it's existence in our imagination and it is when the rock hits our head that the rock and our imagination realize the 'oneness' of it all.

It's a challenge to bring clarity to the nuanced explanations of the difference between these concepts behind the words that get thrown around so often in this discourse. Many from both the advocates and critics of this with even some of the most educated and involved in the discussion fall prey to the clouding up the understanding.

Fortunately a clear understanding of this confusing buzz word salad isn't a requirement or precursor to being present, we can simply be it...no map is needed.

We can experience liberation without any of this, liberation isn't a result from having the 'right' or 'true' map... more like from burning all the maps.

Liberation is the fruit of consciousness in just being.

 

[VeganAwake]

38 minutes ago, SOUL said:

We can experience liberation without any of this, liberation isn't a result from having the 'right' or 'true' map... more like from burning all the maps.

?

Like throwing out the baby with the bathwater, smashing the bathtub, burning the house down and then realizing the house was never real ?