Why do Buddhists say there can be freedom from the cycle of birth and death?

[BipolarGrowth]

After cessation, I’m pretty confused and a bit worried. Is this really my last go? I don’t see how they could have any solid epistemic ground to stand on regarding this. 

I thought becoming free from suffering sounded like a good thing. Now I’m kind of seeing how fun the whole suffering game has been... 

[Anahata]

You have infinite will

[Anahata]

You can imagine & experience anything. You are infinity. You are free. You are the eternal now. Enjoy 

[The0Self]

Ending the cycle of birth and death simply refers to the end of the experiential center. Nothing really changes.

“Me-ing (self-consciousness) & Be-ing (glimpses)” simply collapse into “appearance & appearance,” meaning Me-ing never happens anymore because it never actually did happen — since it was only an appearance, and Me-ing simply refers to the apparent overlooking of the appearance as if it’s actually real (“knowing” it to be real), rather than simply what it is: an appearance; empty-fullness immediately and timelessly already appearing for no one, without inherent purpose or meaning or condition.

That’s all. It’s not your “last go” or anything like that. Don’t worry.

Edited July 1, 2021 by The0Self

[RMQualtrough]

That idea in Buddhism makes zero sense at all. If consciousness ended who mourns your funeral? Consciousness doesn't end: You mourn your own funeral, because everything and everyone is you.

[Loving Radiance]

@BipolarGrowth One interpretation of liberation from samsara is that there's an energetic recognition that one cannot be born and cannot die.

 

21 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

That idea in Buddhism makes zero sense at all. If consciousness ended who mourns your funeral? Consciousness doesn't end: You mourn your own funeral, because everything and everyone is you.

Yes, there's no death and birth anymore.

Does freedom from that mean that consciousness ceases? Where have you got that assumption from?

[RMQualtrough]

2 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

@BipolarGrowth One interpretation of liberation from samsara is that there's an energetic recognition that one cannot be born and cannot die.

 

Yes, there's no death and birth anymore.

Does freedom from that mean that consciousness ceases? Where have you got that assumption from?

It would somehow separate some element of what you are, from existence. If birth takes place, you are being born. If death takes place, you are dying. Wherever there is experience there is you.

To somehow never experience birth again would imply you are no longer simply God, because God experiences those births and always will.

This makes no sense at all. The idea is not right if that is the implication.

[BipolarGrowth]

The0Self

??
Nothing more needs to be expressed to you. Very helpful. 
 

The older texts do read as if this is some end, but an end requires a beginning which cannot be found. 

Edited July 1, 2021 by BipolarGrowth

[erik8lrl]

The freedom from the cycle of birth and death can be interpreted this way. If you become awakened and you become God in your direct experience, you as infinite love/God cannot be dead/alive. Thus you are free from the cycle of birth and death and have the choice to stay in non-existence for eternity, or until you, as God, want to experience existence again.  

[BipolarGrowth]

1 minute ago, erik8lrl said:

The freedom from the cycle of birth and death can be interpreted this way. If you become awakened and you become God in your direct experience, you as infinite love/God cannot be dead/alive. Thus you are free from the cycle of birth and death and have the choice to stay in non-existence for eternity, or until you, as God, want to experience existence again.  

This is basically why an end never makes sense to me. 

[Matt23]

I have a feeling that there's a technical meaning to the phrase "cycles of birth and death" that the Buddha originally meant compared to perhaps a more religious and culturally created version of what it means.  Where the cultural meaning means something like one's full life and subsequent lives after death and being free from being born.  Compared to perhaps a technical meaning used originally by the Buddha to describe some sort of development in perception or consciousness that ends perceiving a separate ego, since perhaps we create this ego moment by moment conceptually, thus we are going through "cycles of birth and death" every moment.  

I've not studied this much at all, so I'm not sure of the technicalities, but my intuition is telling me there's some truth or overarching point that valid here. 

[erik8lrl]

@BipolarGrowth It's all up to you, whatever you want it to be, you will make it that way. 

[BipolarGrowth]

2 minutes ago, Matt23 said:

I have a feeling that there's a technical meaning to the phrase "cycles of birth and death" that the Buddha originally meant compared to perhaps a more religious and culturally created version of what it means.  Where the cultural meaning means something like one's full life and subsequent lives after death and being free from being born.  Compared to perhaps a technical meaning used originally by the Buddha to describe some sort of development in perception or consciousness that ends perceiving a separate ego, since perhaps we create this ego moment by moment conceptually, thus we are going through "cycles of birth and death" every moment.  

I've not studied this much at all, so I'm not sure of the technicalities, but my intuition is telling me there's some truth or overarching point that valid here. 

I like your intuition here. The religious stuff seems off after “non-experiencing” cessation multiple times. 
 

After listening to this 

in my hotel room, every single moment feels full of cessations. In the light white-noise in my ears, it feels as if there are a nearly infinite amount of micro-cessations in between each separate audible sensation. What the fuck. How can I fall asleep after this lol...

[Loving Radiance]

33 minutes ago, RMQualtrough said:

It would somehow separate some element of what you are, from existence. If birth takes place, you are being born. If death takes place, you are dying. Wherever there is experience there is you.

To somehow never experience birth again would imply you are no longer simply God, because God experiences those births and always will.

This makes no sense at all. The idea is not right if that is the implication.

Now I see. You think you are the body & person? Then of course you are being born and you die.

Edit: Wait, yes. God experiences in a sense death and births and they cease to be real.

 

26 minutes ago, BipolarGrowth said:

28 minutes ago, erik8lrl said:

The freedom from the cycle of birth and death can be interpreted this way. If you become awakened and you become God in your direct experience, you as infinite love/God cannot be dead/alive. Thus you are free from the cycle of birth and death and have the choice to stay in non-existence for eternity, or until you, as God, want to experience existence again.  

This is basically why an end never makes sense to me.

Yes, it is making no sense. You are doing good.

Deconstruct on an experiential level what beginning and end is.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Loving Radiance

[BipolarGrowth]

1 minute ago, Loving Radiance said:

Now I see. You think you are the body & person. Then of course you are being born and you die.

 

Yes, it is making no sense. You are doing good.

Deconstruct on an experiential level what beginning and end is.

Even calling this the “present moment” doesn’t make sense. There’s no present and no moment. 

[Loving Radiance]

@BipolarGrowth Goddamnit. Right on point. Totally useless for the human. And so freeing.

On another note, deconstruction means that you see through constructs and you can use the constructs. To be functional is to transcend and include the tools in your toolbox.

[The Buddha]

To escape the cycle of birth and death is actually not literal, in the sense that everythings happens exactly the same as before, it is you who have realized your inner true nature. For example, if a wave realizes it's the ocean and it's nature is water, that means the rythm of the ocean stops? That there will be no more storms? Or beautiful days? No, it's the same, however you will be in no delusion of thinking that u are that limited spontanious wave. Is not that the game ends, it's that for one time you understand the game you are playing at and by this, the ilusion is dispelled and u are free, yet the wave remains wave, the ocean remains ocean and water is water.

Quote

Before enlightenment chop wood carry water. After enlightenment chop wood carry water.

If enlightenment is anything is not a changing or something u become, it is a seeing of what is ever-present. By seeing what is ever-present nothing actually changes, because it is truly ever-present, it was even when u didn't notice. How can the seeing of what always is, can change anything? In the sense that, you are that which is ever-present in fact. So the game still goes on, u can play or not, u can react in whatever way u want, yet the game is the game, u just realized oh shit I'm playing this game and this are the rules: wow. Does that change the game? Definetly not. That does make u free from the game, definetly yes. Can u still play the game when u know how it works? Well, yes I mean that's how it's supposed to be. Can u decide to stop playing the game? Well, yes it makes no difference, it's one game. You are just aware, awake, conscious of that cycle of birth and death, of this reality of this Truth of this Love. You are conscious, being concious that u are conciousness does not change conciousness, does not change you or anything in any way, u are just aware of what is, what is a reality right here and now, what is truth. You just get to know yourself and your natural ever-present-presence.

[BipolarGrowth]

5 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

@BipolarGrowth Goddamnit. Right on point. Totally useless for the human. And so freeing.

On another note, deconstruction means that you see through constructs and you can use the constructs. To be functional is to transcend and include the tools in your toolbox.

I can still use the tools when needed. I just don’t have as much desire to at this point.  
 

I think it might be better to reword part of what you’re talking about as Reconstruction. It’s time to strengthen my ego in a healthy way to allow myself to persist. 

[RMQualtrough]

17 minutes ago, Loving Radiance said:

Now I see. You think you are the body & person? Then of course you are being born and you die.

Edit: Wait, yes. God experiences in a sense death and births and they cease to be real.

I'm not sure whether the Buddhists use it metaphorically. But for example even while living you are being born, almost constantly, since there is new life birthed every second across the animal kingdom. There then is another finite self. The terminology, that you escape the cycle, seems to imply that you can choose to end this process.

I think someone said, like, as God you can choose to not incarnate. Here is where it makes no sense. Every single birth is a birth of you. To prevent your birth would be to prevent ALL births of life forever.

[The Buddha]

1 minute ago, BipolarGrowth said:

It’s time to strengthen my ego in a healthy way to allow myself to persist. 

This sentence shows that u are truly going all the way, you are starting to go full circle. It is a very interesting process enjoy it, it's beautiful. In lots of tradition is one of the common last steps. I loved the way Osho explained it, when the master returns from the Himalayas to the marketplace, absolutely drunk with the divine fragrance. The marketplace is a great dance he enjoys and plays while being still. There is very deep wisdom in these words and in fact talks about what u are starting to experience now.