An IRL encounter with the darkness of scientific materialism

[Runtz]

Hello forum, I have been a long time lurker but decided to make an account to ask this question. I would really appreciate if @Leo Gura would have some advice on this situation.

My cousin who is the same age as me in our early twenties, has been suffering from depression, self-mutilation and multiple suicide attempts over the last few years. she has taken medication and therapy which didn't work. 

Let me clarify that she has always been into science and rational debating stubbornness. So she is a materialist.

her immediate family told me the clinic where she is currently at is giving her electro shock therapy as a 'last resort'. I inquired as to what would happen if this 'last resort' did not work. They told me that euthanasia was being discussed.

This shocked me to the bone. Apparently in my country it is possible to get euthanasia even if you are as young as in your early twenties. And the cold hard way the clinic just sees it as an option they can take. I know this clinic must be highly materialistic just like all mainstream clinics. meaning they only give medication and physical therapy, and if that doesn't work they offer euthanasia, basically saying; "if our materialistic medical treatments don't work, killing yourself is your only option", Further reinforcing the story of my cousins suffering and hopelessness.

At least in stage blue societies, people who suffer get recommended to turn to God to start their self-transformation. I have no Idea how I would turn my cousin to the likes of spiritual contemplation and introspection. I know for a fact her suffering and cold materialism are tied. She sees the world as a cold clockwork. The best idea is to maybe send her this video from Actualized; Either "What is Spirituality" or "Why reality is not material". Would this be a good idea?

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Side question: Is the fact that my country offers euthanasia to young people, an example of toxic stage green?

Edited June 30, 2021 by Runtz

[Leo Gura]

1 hour ago, Runtz said:

euthanasia was being discussed

That is fucked up. What country does this?

Rather than something so stupid, see my recent blog post about Ketamine IV therapy. That could seriously help her. Or better yet, psychedelics.

[Preety_India]

Electroshock is considered illegal in most countries. How is it allowed in your country?

 

Also with time and therapy, depression can heal.

As far as I know, euthanasia is never administered to young adults.

It's usually the last resort for the elderly with terminal illness where they're going to die anyway so they want to minimise the horror of a slow agonizing death.

Freedom from suffering looks like healthy Green to me. But that's only for terminally sick 

If I correctly remember, it has to be either Sweden or Switzerland.

 

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by Preety_India

[Depersonilized]

@Runtz What medication did she take and for how long in your knowledge? Also, what did the therapy consist of and for how long did she do that? How many clinics has she actually gone to? It about time to find a new one. I second what Leo said, but depending on where you live, her beliefs, etc., that may not be possible, so there needs to be more than one option for how to approach this I think.  

[RMQualtrough]

When you say euthanasia is being considered, is this because she in fact has some incurable disease or cancer etc, the depression and such being secondary to this?

[kinesin]

@Leo Gura  It's probably the Netherlands, as I believe they're the only country in the world which practices psychiatric euthenasia.  In NL children as young as 12 can be euthanized if their parents consent, and children over 16 can be euthanized without their parents having a say.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2491354

If any country today still carries the tradition of spiritually bereft scientific materialism from the nazis, it's the Netherlands.

Edited July 1, 2021 by kinesin

[StarStruck]

22 minutes ago, kinesin said:

@Leo Gura  It's probably the Netherlands, as I believe they're the only country in the world which practices psychiatric euthenasia.  In NL children as young as 12 can be euthanized if their parents consent, and children over 16 can be euthanized without their parents having a say.

https://jamanetwork.com/journals/jamapsychiatry/fullarticle/2491354

If any country today still carries the tradition of spiritually bereft scientific materialism from the nazis, it's the Netherlands.

Euthanasia is allowed because people who want to kill themselves, they will find a way to do it, with euthanasia or not. It is actually a very humane way of dying if you want to die. Not everybody has the brains to figure it all out by taking psychedelics. Government wants to give a humane way of dying because if they don't people are jumping in front of trains and shit.

[kinesin]

Just now, StarStruck said:

Euthanasia is allowed because people who want to kill themselves, they will find a way to do it, with euthanasia or not.

False.  Infact many people go through a suicidal period in their lives which they eventually emerge from, and accounts from survivors of failed suicide attempts almost unanimously report experiencing a moment of intense regret the moment they realize they've actually done it.

If you're Dutch, you won't be able to see this rationally, the way people in other countries see it.  People defend the evils of their own cultures because they have been inculcated to do so.

[StarStruck]

54 minutes ago, kinesin said:

False.  Infact many people go through a suicidal period in their lives which they eventually emerge from, and accounts from survivors of failed suicide attempts almost unanimously report experiencing a moment of intense regret the moment they realize they've actually done it.

If you're Dutch, you won't be able to see this rationally, the way people in other countries see it.  People defend the evils of their own cultures because they have been inculcated to do so.

This also counts for you. Letting people live while they don't want to live and not giving them a respectable way out is just as evil in my opinion. Dying in a respectable way with euthanasia is much better than jumping in front of a train.

This might not be valid for the subject of this thread (in my opinion there are other options to exhaust for the subject of this thread) but some other people are mentally or physically very sick and everyday is a hell for them.

[Windappreciator]

10 hours ago, Runtz said:

 

her immediate family told me the clinic where she is currently at is giving her electro shock therapy as a 'last resort'. I inquired as to what would happen if this 'last resort' did not work. They told me that euthanasia was being discussed.

 

 

Holy shit that is fkn retarded...

Psychiatry just ruins people's mind, man. 

She needs to get out of there, get slowly off all these drugs and take it to an ayahuasca retreat that is treating people for depression.

Because psychedelics together with psychiatric drugs is seriously not healthy I heard.

 But I cannot tell you what will be, if she got electro shock therapy she might be a vegetable for the rest of her life now.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Windappreciator

[ItsNick]

Yes Euthanasia is legal here in the Netherlands.

Idea from our "neo-liberal progressive" party D66(6) (whilst massively cutting and "americanizing" our healthcare industry)

 

I guess in some very specific cases euthanasia is an acceptable option, if everything has been tried and the suffering becomes unbearable. But it's absurd they are euthanizing children now.

 

That party is also pushing for "Voltooid Leven", meaning that if you're 75+ you can choose for euthanasia without needing to be sick or suffering. But again, whilst massively cutting elderly care while they're in power.

 

Edited July 1, 2021 by ItsNick

[Cepzeu]

I'll just add my 2 cents as someone in the medical field, that electroconvulsive therapy is a very effective and widespread treatment for drug-resistant depression. It is not shocking and frying the brain, like portrayed in movies. It is a form of passing current through different parts to induce a small seizure. This can 'reset' the brain and lead to the release of neurotransmitters that may be missing in depression. From patients I have talked to, it helps them lead near-normal lives.

[Leo Gura]

I got no problem with euthanasia for terminally ill old people.

But not for a depressive 20 year old. This is absurd.

[Cepzeu]

2 minutes ago, Leo Gura said:

I got no problem with euthenasia for terminally sick old people.

But not for a depressive 20 year old. This is absurd.

Yeah that's fucked up. 

But just to be clear, electroconvulsive therapy and euthanasia and two different things.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Cepzeu

[Windappreciator]

47 minutes ago, Cepzeu said:

Yeah that's fucked up. 

But just to be clear, electroconvulsive therapy and euthanasia and two different things.

Yes, after an ECT I'd rather be euthanized too.

ECT fries your nerv cells. It's not a brain massage, stop talking shit.

Edited July 1, 2021 by Windappreciator

[kinesin]

4 hours ago, Cepzeu said:

I'll just add my 2 cents as someone in the medical field, that electroconvulsive therapy is a very effective and widespread treatment for drug-resistant depression. It is not shocking and frying the brain, like portrayed in movies. It is a form of passing current through different parts to induce a small seizure. This can 'reset' the brain and lead to the release of neurotransmitters that may be missing in depression. From patients I have talked to, it helps them lead near-normal lives.

I don’t know how you can say that it isn’t shocking the brain, when it literally involves directing 70-120 volts through the skull in an imprecise manner.

ECT has been known to cause permanent cognitive impairment and amnesia.  One study showed that upto 50% of people given ECT reported lasting changes to their memory.

I empathise with the fact that as a medical practitioner you have a moral imperative to believe that the treatments condoned by your industry are beneficial to patients, but I don’t believe ECT will be viewed very highly in the future, to say the least.  Remember, back when lobotomies were still practiced the general medical advice was that they were safe and effective.

I understand that ECT is reserved as a last resort in many cases, but the fact that such a last resort is practiced while other treatments such as ketamine and psychedelic therapy go unused strikes me as absurd and indicative of major limitations in the scope of acceptable medical interventions.

[ItsNick]

Very sad story.

Appearantly Euthanasia is legal in Belgium and some other countries too: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Legality_of_euthanasia

 

Psychiatrist from the docu:

Quote

Sometimes for mental suffering there is nothing left to offer

I think this really shows the need for radical changes in mental healthcare. We have no idea what we're doing...

 

 

[diamondpenguin]

8 hours ago, StarStruck said:

Government wants to give a humane way of dying because if they don't people are jumping in front of trains and shit.

Government should give treatment, not death.

Edited July 1, 2021 by diamondpenguin

[kinesin]

@ItsNick 

Doctor 1: “Hmm, the patient doesn’t respond to any of our medications and not even ECT seemed to help”

Doctor 2: “Shall we prescribe guided meditations?  Perhaps a therapeutic session at the psychedelic clinic with MDMA or psilocybin?  What about introducing the patient to spirituality?”

Doctor 1: “No, that won’t be necessary.  Book them in to be killed.”

[Corpus]

5 hours ago, Cepzeu said:

I'll just add my 2 cents as someone in the medical field, that electroconvulsive therapy is a very effective and widespread treatment for drug-resistant depression. It is not shocking and frying the brain, like portrayed in movies. It is a form of passing current through different parts to induce a small seizure. This can 'reset' the brain and lead to the release of neurotransmitters that may be missing in depression. From patients I have talked to, it helps them lead near-normal lives.

 

50 minutes ago, kinesin said:

I don’t know how you can say that it isn’t shocking the brain, when it literally involves directing 70-120 volts through the skull in an imprecise manner.

ECT has been known to cause permanent cognitive impairment and amnesia.  One study showed that upto 50% of people given ECT reported lasting changes to their memory.

I empathise with the fact that as a medical practitioner you have a moral imperative to believe that the treatments condoned by your industry are beneficial to patients, but I don’t believe ECT will be viewed very highly in the future, to say the least.  Remember, back when lobotomies were still practiced the general medical advice was that they were safe and effective.

I understand that ECT is reserved as a last resort in many cases, but the fact that such a last resort is practiced while other treatments such as ketamine and psychedelic therapy go unused strikes me as absurd and indicative of major limitations in the scope of acceptable medical interventions.

ECT is particularly effective in the elderly patient with severe depression with psychomotor retardation and such patients are often diagnosed with other conditions which in themselves or as a consequence of the treatment may preclude the use of psychedelics.