Is meditation worth it when there's the prospect of taking psychedelics

[Adam101]

Though I do meditate every now and again, I do find it hard to motivate myself to keep a consist routine where I'm meditating for say 15-30mins per day when all I can think is well, in the end, I could just pop a psychedelic and achieve perhaps a year or two's worth of intensive meditation practise in one trip. The only catch is that the UK has exceptionally strict laws on drugs and about the only chance I have of acquiring such substances is waiting until the autumn for the mushroom season.

So in the meantime, does anyone have any thoughts on this or feel the same way? I feel content and relaxed generally in myself so I'm not meditating for the purposes of that but rather to expand my consciousness, but of course, that kind of intention could take ages to achieve with meditation alone - and even then it might not happen. If a conscious shift does happen, it happens by chance as it did to me last year but I wasn't even meditating. I took an evening walk in the summer and I just experienced a profound sense of connection with where I was - I've tried to recreate the experience ever since to no avail.  

I'm sure even Leo said in his episode on psychedelics that you're pretty much wasting your time if you're just meditating. The real gains are with psychedelics. You've also got the problem of the more you try in the meditation, the less likely a conscious shifts will happen which is often the mode of mind I get into when meditating, but psychedelics, just throw you into that consciousness space, it's just up to you to make sense of it.

I'm aware of the benefits of meditation in tandem with psychedelics, but if I had some to use then I would feel more motivated. 

I'm new to the forum so it's not a meaty question as such but more about introducing myself as well and letting you guys know where I'm at after listening to much of Leo's work  

[impulse9]

I would put that on its head and say psychedelics are a waste of time if you're meditating.

"If you get the message, hang up the phone. For psychedelic drugs are simply instruments, like microscopes, telescopes, and telephones. The biologist does not sit with eye permanently glued to the microscope, he goes away and works on what he has seen"
-Alan Watts

And yes - I'm sure Leo would disagree. But we're all entitled to follow our own way. For me personally, psychedelics have been integral in my development of outlook on life, but I see no point to using them regularly. You may feel wise and all-knowing at the peak of your trip, but once you land back on Earth you will have forgotten all of it, and your Ego will be scrambling in a mad panic to collect the pieces. That's why it's worth infinitely more to get there on your own accord. Beware of unearned wisdom and all that.

Edited June 28, 2021 by impulse9

[allislove]

Any tool is just a tool. If you rely solely on psychedelics you are pretty much doomed. Doomed because at some point you have to recognize that the tool is inside you and you are the tool itself. Solely with psychedelics it's way harder to notice, so continue meditating. But psychedelics is a very good tool in tandem with meditation as you said. Psychedelics help to recognize other beliefs about yourself more quickly than a meditation practice alone. This is just one perspective, doesn't apply to everyone, listen to your gut feeling. And welcome to the forum!  

[lmfao]

@Adam101 yeah cool question. Even if psychedelics are amazing and you should do them, perhaps tripping alone shouldn't be the extent of your consciousness work. Whether the other stuff you do is contemplation, meditation, inquiry, deep philosophy, etc. 

 

Only reason I say this is because I know of people who've done psychedelics with zero spiritual intention and got zero spiritual insight. So the intention you go into these things with can make a world of difference perhaps. 

I've only done meditation. I know that for me for example, I've had some spiritual insight and mystical experience from meditation, whilst for other people they saw meditation as just some thing to relax a bit and never had such things. 

So the intention with which you do anything can make leaps of difference, imo

Edited June 28, 2021 by lmfao

[impulse9]

I've done both reality shattering psychedelics (namely Salvia Divinorum - the others I've done don't even remotely compare in terms of scale, grandiosity and the experience of cosmic wisdom) and I've been meditating since early age and I've had more profound experiences with meditation. And the insights last longer and stick much firmer with meditation. With psychedelics it's fleeting, with meditation it's not.

Don't get me wrong, I think psychedelics are marvelous tools for inner exploration, and my own trips have showed me beyond a shadow of doubt how very little we actually know about who and what we are, which is basically nothing. They are important tools, but the fundamental issue with them is that it's borrowed power. And this is why you don't take anything back from your trip, only the increasingly vague memories of something impossible that happened to you. It's a true mindfuck.

But consider for a moment that you could access such power on your own. Imagine for a moment the implications of someone who is able to access this universal wisdom at any given moment, on his own power. This is supposed to be the endgame with meditation. What's the endgame with psychedelics? A life of scratching your head and coming up with ever more ludicrous theories (yes - I love McKenna but come on)? These are very important considerations that one should make in their life before proceeding on the spiritual path in either direction.

Edited June 28, 2021 by impulse9

[VioletFlame]

Yes. In fact, I would encourage you to continue meditating, especially if you are considering taking psychedelics.

Meditation is a brilliant preparation tool for not only virtually every situation or circumstance you encounter in life, but also for experimenting with psychedelics. 

Much Love ❤

[Carl-Richard]

1 hour ago, Adam101 said:

Though I do meditate every now and again, I do find it hard to motivate myself to keep a consist routine where I'm meditating for say 15-30mins per day when all I can think is well, in the end, I could just pop a psychedelic and achieve perhaps a year or two's worth of intensive meditation practise in one trip. 

It's not that simple. A consistent meditation practice is not replaceable.

[Consilience]

29 minutes ago, Adam101 said:

Though I do meditate every now and again, I do find it hard to motivate myself to keep a consist routine where I'm meditating for say 15-30mins per day when all I can think is well, in the end, I could just pop a psychedelic and achieve perhaps a year or two's worth of intensive meditation practise in one trip.

Psychedelics and intensive meditation practice are unfortunately not equivalent. 15-30 minutes per day is nowhere near enough practice to understand what intensive meditation provides. What's interesting is that as you bump up your practice time, there tends to be a non-linear increase with the results you receive. 

32 minutes ago, Adam101 said:

I feel content and relaxed generally in myself so I'm not meditating for the purposes of that but rather to expand my consciousness, but of course, that kind of intention could take ages to achieve with meditation alone - and even then it might not happen.

 What are you basing this conclusion on? I have not met a single person who practices meditation seriously who has found it to be anything less than profound and life changing. 

1 hour ago, Adam101 said:

I'm sure even Leo said in his episode on psychedelics that you're pretty much wasting your time if you're just meditating. The real gains are with psychedelics.

@Leo Gura You've really got to clean up your messaging man. This is wildly inaccurate and goes against not only what the average, serious meditator's experience is, but it goes against what every major sage from every major contemplative tradition has to say about meditation, or equivalent contemplative practice. This type of rhetoric completely misguides noobies into a false sense of understanding how to expand one's consciousness, wisdom and understanding in life. 

@Adam101 psychedelics alone will do very little for profoundly altering your baseline state of consciousness. Meditation will. It's that simple. The idea that meditation can't give you psychedelic like states is false, it most certainly can and it's not a matter of if, it's a matter of how serious about the practice you are. Sure 15-30 minutes, missing a few days here and there isn't going to be very effective. But 2+ hours per day, going on yearly retreats or more, doing background practice in daily life, that's a whole different story. 

You will grow tired of having to constantly use a foreign substance to be in these higher consciousness states. Psychedelics absolutely are a profound, powerful, meaningful tool on the path, but if you could only use 1, meditation or psychedelics, meditation would be better every time. It's impossible to understand why or how until you've done serious practice. Of course Leo has a different opinion, but I would encourage you to commit to rigorously practicing meditation, we're talking 1, 2, maybe even 3 hours per day for multiple years, before coming to any definite conclusion. Leo has not done this type of intensive meditation so really isn't a real authority on the matter. Serious monks and yogis are doing 4+ hours a day with regular retreats multiple times per year. What we do in the west is not "intensive" practice. 

2 hours ago, Adam101 said:

I'm new to the forum so it's not a meaty question as such but more about introducing myself as well and letting you guys know where I'm at after listening to much of Leo's work  

Welcome man. I would actually say it's a pretty meaty question 

[Consilience]

1 hour ago, impulse9 said:

I've done both reality shattering psychedelics (namely Salvia Divinorum - the others I've done don't even remotely compare in terms of scale, grandiosity and the experience of cosmic wisdom) and I've been meditating since early age and I've had more profound experiences with meditation. And the insights last longer and stick much firmer with meditation. With psychedelics it's fleeting, with meditation it's not.

Don't get me wrong, I think psychedelics are marvelous tools for inner exploration, and my own trips have showed me beyond a shadow of doubt how very little we actually know about who and what we are, which is basically nothing. They are important tools, but the fundamental issue with them is that it's borrowed power. And this is why you don't take anything back from your trip, only the increasingly vague memories of something impossible that happened to you. It's a true mindfuck.

But consider for a moment that you could access such power on your own. Imagine for a moment the implications of someone who is able to access this universal wisdom at any given moment, on his own power. This is supposed to be the endgame with meditation. What's the endgame with psychedelics? A life of scratching your head and coming up with ever more ludicrous theories (yes - I love McKenna but come on)? These are very important considerations that one should make in their life before proceeding on the spiritual path in either direction.

? 

[Nahm]

@Adam101

Meditation is letting everything go, namely, thinking. One can’t ‘stop the thoughts’, but when one focuses on feeling breathing from the stomach, thought activity settles, quiets, ceases. While meditating if you notice you’re giving attention to thoughts / thinking, simply return attention to feeling breathing from / in the stomach. That’s it. 

3 hours ago, Adam101 said:

If a conscious shift does happen, it happens by chance

That is not true. That is an example of thought activity, which is let go in meditation, simply by focusing on breathing from the stomach. 

3 hours ago, Adam101 said:

achieve

That is another example of thinking / a thought, which is let go in meditation. 

3 hours ago, Adam101 said:

you're pretty much wasting your time if you're just meditating.

That is another great, really great example of thinking / thoughts, which are let go in meditation. 

3 hours ago, Adam101 said:

try in the meditation

Another great example of thinking which isn’t in meditation, which has literally absolutely nothing to do with meditation because it was let go, in meditation. 

3 hours ago, Adam101 said:

The real gains are with psychedelics

That thought, that one… that is an outstanding, just an outstanding example of a thought which is not in meditation because it was let go in meditation. 

[knakoo]

3 hours ago, impulse9 said:

I would put that on its head and say psychedelics are a waste of time if you're meditating.

2 hours ago, Consilience said:

Psychedelics absolutely are a profound, powerful, meaningful tool on the path, but if you could only use 1, meditation or psychedelics, meditation would be better every time.

I think it depends a lot on if the person in question has serious trauma or not. If he has serious trauma, then starting a serious meditation practice would be very challenging, whereas psychedelics done properly would be incredibly beneficial. Once you have released most of your trauma, your baseline state become much more pleasant and meditative. I am talking here about trips spent "vomiting trauma" for hours. Trust me your baseline state of consciousness change quite a bit after a few of those.

For me it's being in a "non ego" state for 2 weeks after a life changing trip that made me serious about spirituality. After you have had some profound experiences on psychedelics, it is pretty natural to start spiritual practices. So it doesn't make much sense to say "if you have to choose one". No one is going to do regular and serious trips (done with reverence) for years without starting spiritual practices at some point.

Plus there are many activities that are consciousness work besides sitting meditation, like going on a walk, yoga, ice baths, shaktipat transmissions... or you know simply being, whatever you are doing. Like if you go on a walk in nature, simply being aware of your surroundings and enjoying the moment, is that meditation ?

So IMO, for most people, if they have to choose between never doing psychedelics or never doing "official" sitting meditation, he/she is better off skipping the second.

[Consilience]

13 minutes ago, knakoo said:

I think it depends a lot on if the person in question has serious trauma or not. If he has serious trauma, then starting a serious meditation practice would be very challenging, whereas psychedelics done properly would be incredibly beneficial. Once you have released most of your trauma, your baseline state become much more pleasant and meditative. I am talking here about trips spent "vomiting trauma" for hours. Trust me your baseline state of consciousness change quite a bit after a few of those.

That's true. I've had similar experiences healing traumas with psychedelics. They seem much more powerful at facilitating healing than meditation. 

 

14 minutes ago, knakoo said:

Like if you go on a walk in nature, simply being aware of your surroundings and enjoying the moment, is that meditation ?

I consider this a form of meditation yes. You're applying mindfulness so in that sense... It is reinforcing those pathways in the mind. There is something particularly potent about a formal, seated practice. The stillness, silence, and being with whatever arises with equanimity, but certainly other activities are opportunities to "meditate" in the sense that you're mindfully engaging with life and therefore developing "mindfulness muscles." 

 

15 minutes ago, knakoo said:

So IMO, for most people, if they have to choose between never doing psychedelics or never doing "official" sitting meditation, he/she is better off skipping the second.

Not sure how you're making that conclusion here. In this dichotomy, it's psychedelics or meditation right? Perhaps for you you'd prefer psychedelics. Okay that's fine. But I can only speak from experience, from talking to many experienced meditators (many of whom who have used psychedelics), and working with multiple enlightened masters, I'd choose meditation over psychedelics any day if I was forced to choose. However, I thankfully do not have to choose. And I currently practice both with reverence, as you said. And I agree, using psychedelics with reverence plus intentionality is an absurdly powerful tool.

Doing both practices is a rare opportunity on this planet, to have the neurological genetics to be open to these practices, plus the life circumstances to lead both tools into your life is truly a precious opportunity. 

[knakoo]

6 minutes ago, Consilience said:

That's true. I've had similar experiences healing traumas with psychedelics. They seem much more powerful at facilitating healing than meditation. 

 

I consider this a form of meditation yes. You're applying mindfulness so in that sense... It is reinforcing those pathways in the mind. There is something particularly potent about a formal, seated practice. The stillness, silence, and being with whatever arises with equanimity, but certainly other activities are opportunities to "meditate" in the sense that you're mindfully engaging with life and therefore developing "mindfulness muscles." 

 

Not sure how you're making that conclusion here. In this dichotomy, it's psychedelics or meditation right? Perhaps for you you'd prefer psychedelics. Okay that's fine. But I can only speak from experience, from talking to many experienced meditators (many of whom who have used psychedelics), and working with multiple enlightened masters, I'd choose meditation over psychedelics any day if I was forced to choose. However, I thankfully do not have to choose. And I currently practice both with reverence, as you said. And I agree, using psychedelics with reverence plus intentionality is an absurdly powerful tool.

Let's say you have 2 random, average guys (in terms of trauma, baseline consciousness...), who just discovered spirituality and want to make some "progress" in that direction. One chooses to do regular trips with intention and reverence, but to never do formal meditation (he prefers, yoga, walks, Wim hof method...). The other one does formal meditation but never uses psychedelics. Let's say they spend a similar amount of time doing "spiritual practices" (including trips). Most likely, after a few years, the first one will be much better off.

Then if the choice is between psychedelics vs all spiritual practices, then obviously yes better do the practices.

23 minutes ago, Consilience said:

Doing both practices is a rare opportunity on this planet, to have the neurological genetics to be open to these practices, plus the life circumstances to lead both tools into your life is truly a precious opportunity. 

Add shaktipat transmissions / energy work and you are golden  (ice baths are also very powerful!)

 

[WaveInTheOcean]

Meditation is simply a practice of resetting focus from daydreaming in thoughs to 'the now' (and you can use any object; breath/bodily sensations are popular, but in principle even thought itself can become an object acknowledged in 'the now'.

If you aren't good at letting go & focusing (identical meanings basically, just different words) then psychedelics done properly will smack your ass, which is probably what ya need.

You always get what ya need (in the end). It may be a long dance with the devil, but eventually even God will appear to you in the eyes of The Devil

Suffering is healing (if you accept it).

[Adrian325]

The Ouija board helped me connect with my true self. Eventually i didn't need the board,ide just put my finger on any surface or even in the air and with awareness practice like body scanning you'll really connect with the field. Then psychedelics and focus your awareness on awareness. For me,I focused my attention on the spot where my finger would disappear in front of me,then slightly up like your looking at the empty space between your eyes and any object. You might feel your eyes twitching but just stay with it and eventually you'll see "it"

[Consilience]

29 minutes ago, knakoo said:

Let's say you have 2 random, average guys (in terms of trauma, baseline consciousness...), who just discovered spirituality and want to make some "progress" in that direction. One chooses to do regular trips with intention and reverence, but to never do formal meditation (he prefers, yoga, walks, Wim hof method...). The other one does formal meditation but never uses psychedelics. Let's say they spend a similar amount of time doing "spiritual practices" (including trips). Most likely, after a few years, the first one will be much better off.

Well this could be true. It would all depend on how hard the second guy hits meditation. If the second guy was going on 2-3 meditation retreats per year with a good teacher, practicing 1-2 hours per day as his own, making a focus out of "life practice" (being mindful while walking in nature, cooking, cleaning, while talking with people, etc.) then I would argue the second guy would be much better off. If, though, the second guy is only doing < 1 hour per day of practice, never going on retreats, not bothering to learn about different techniques and finding what works for him, then yes I agree. It literally all depends on how hard you go. 

This is where I think people get hung up on meditation. Results can very ENORMOUSLY. Why? Because to see results with meditation usually takes an enormous front end investment, learning of different techniques and systems, and finding what resonates. Most don't have the vision or discipline to do all of this. What most people don't understand about meditation is how quickly results start to take off once they start to take off. It's really a shame. 

But yeah I mean if you aren't willing to invest the time and energy into serious meditation practice, a couple years of serious psychedelic useage plus other practices will serve you better. But in terms of permanently elevating one's consciousness, ie experiencing God while bopping around through life, meditation all the way. 

29 minutes ago, knakoo said:

Add shaktipat transmissions / energy work and you are golden  (ice baths are also very powerful!)

Very true. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Consilience

[Kalki Avatar]

Psychedelics, knowledge and thinking will ultimately get you nowhere. These are good to begin with in order to introduce yourself to the path and get some preparation/orientation.

Also, if you are too busy in other life areas, these can keep up a minimal growth for future true growth when meditation and recognition (concentration) are put to use. These are the only true way. Dont expect real growth and enligthenment with the above. You might end even more lost. Leo would be realized by now if that were the case. Lot of ppl would. 

 

[knakoo]

1 hour ago, Consilience said:

Well this could be true. It would all depend on how hard the second guy hits meditation. If the second guy was going on 2-3 meditation retreats per year with a good teacher, practicing 1-2 hours per day as his own, making a focus out of "life practice" (being mindful while walking in nature, cooking, cleaning, while talking with people, etc.) then I would argue the second guy would be much better off. If, though, the second guy is only doing < 1 hour per day of practice, never going on retreats, not bothering to learn about different techniques and finding what works for him, then yes I agree. It literally all depends on how hard you go. 

This is where I think people get hung up on meditation. Results can very ENORMOUSLY. Why? Because to see results with meditation usually takes an enormous front end investment, learning of different techniques and systems, and finding what resonates. Most don't have the vision or discipline to do all of this. What most people don't understand about meditation is how quickly results start to take off once they start to take off. It's really a shame. 

But yeah I mean if you aren't willing to invest the time and energy into serious meditation practice, a couple years of serious psychedelic useage plus other practices will serve you better. But in terms of permanently elevating one's consciousness, ie experiencing God while bopping around through life, meditation all the way. 

Yes if the second guy is that commited, you are probably right, but then he is a pretty exceptional average guy 

[RobertZ]

It's 100% okay to take psychedelics without meditating (Unless you are in certain organized religions or follow the discipline and path of particular teachers).  Not everybody does every spiritual practice--and certainly not all at once.

If you want to add some spiritual practice, you could up the meditation; but you have many options. 

There is the yoga of charitable service. Volunteering in hospitals, becoming a pen pal with someone in prison, soup kitchens, food drives, handing out water on hot summer days. And what about fasting? Some spiritual masters have concentrated their lives on music, dancing, or iconography. Of course, millions of people literally swear by inspired texts! Then, there are many ways to pray, if you lioe to pray:like, intercession, gratitude, praise, repentance, requests, and adoration. For example, check out a Taize prayer group. 

Taking psychedelics tends to be among the most personally meaningful experiences in a person's life. A lot of people get interested in meditation after they take psychedelics.

You are not doomed to an interior level of consciousness just because you do not follow the same paths of others.

Please be careful of those damn drug laws, my friend. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by RobertZ

[Bodhitree]

10 hours ago, impulse9 said:Consider for a moment that you could access such power on your own. Imagine for a moment the implications of someone who is able to access this universal wisdom at any given moment, on his own power. This is supposed to be the endgame with meditation. What's the endgame with psychedelics? A life of scratching your head and coming up with ever more ludicrous theories (yes - I love McKenna but come on)? These are very important considerations that one should make in their life before proceeding on the spiritual path in either direction.

I think this is a very important question worthy of discussion in its own rights.