2 postulations possible with metaphysics.

[Adamq8]

Hi guys!

Sat yesterday contemplating after listening to a podcast with Bernardo Kastrup and it hit me that there is only 2 metaphysics that can be postulated really.

Sure how it works and so forth is a matter of a different discussion but the 2 metaphysics we can really postulate is about death.

Either it is the materialism mindset of there will be no experience when death occurs, when you are dead experience ceases to exist and everything goes to non existence for eternity.

The other is that experience is fundamental to reality IE conciousness/Mind and that experience will never cease to be, it will be an eternity of Joy but also a immense eternity of your own hell and suffering.

Sure we have deep sleep but experience always reboots since the ground is a transpersonal "field" of "subjective" experiences.

Either we suffer 1 time and then it is lights out or we will suffer for eternity but memory might not follow in between lifes.

If it is true that GOD IS and GOD is eternal it means that conciousness is eternal and all we can do is dream dreams, and when death comes we wake up to realize it was a dream all along.

Which one would you prefer and why? And what does experiences point to in your honest opinion?

 

 

[Tim R]

@Adamq8

4 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

there will be no experience when death occurs, when you are dead experience ceases to exist and everything goes to non existence for eternity.

There are four underlying assumptions:

1. - death is real and "happens" to "you"
2. - there is such a thing as experience and it has an opposite: non-experience
3. - experience "ceases" to be when you are dead
4. - non-existence

Contemplate those.

Let's say your right and when you die, experience completely ceases to be. And it will be as if you had never been alive. But what would it be like to "stop"? Well you can't even call it "stop" because it didn't ever stop. There is no contrast. There never wasn't any "start", so there is no stop. Contemplate that. Maybe experience can never cease because it never began. 

Tell me, is the present moment something that is beginning or ending? Or is it timeless? How can something timeless "end"? 

And what about non-existence? How can non-existence "exist"? 

Is there such a thing as non-experience? And what is experience anyway? Are you experiencing the universe? Or is experience identical with the universe? 

And who are you? Are "you" something that can die? Are you bound by time? Or are you just an illusion and so your death? 

 

So there's a couple of things for you to contemplate. Always be careful with underlying assumptions when making metaphysical claims.

4 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

And what does experiences point to in your honest opinion?

What do you mean?

[tsuki]

5 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

Either it is the materialism mindset of there will be no experience when death occurs, when you are dead experience ceases to exist and everything goes to non existence for eternity.

Materialist metaphysics is empirically false. We were all dead before we were born and now we are alive. Why assume that something else will happen after this body is dead?

[Eternal Unity]

6 hours ago, Adamq8 said:

Which one would you prefer and why? And what does experiences point to in your honest opinion?

Out of those: The Experience of Consciousness/Universal Mind. 

Right, because it is unending and eternity of joy when the suffering is integrated as an illusion. 

I had some mystical experiences into the nature of love, wisdom and time. They helped me, along with inner consciousness work, to have a stable and peaceful life.

The contemplation of death is also important but only raises more questions, in my opinion - which is good, but I like knowing better than not knowing

Greg

[Breakingthewall]

It seems obvious that your conscience and mine, if you completely remove the memory, are exactly the same. the experience we are having, to which we give meaning, centered in the self, makes it seem like two different consciousnesses, but it seems clear that this is a forced illusion, trick to keep the body alive.

If we accept this, it is obvious that when my body dies, my experience of the self will disappear, but the consciousness that is being, will continue to be in you.

The question is what would happen if all the universe turns off and disappears, and there is nothing left. the timeless undifferentiated emptiness. would "something" arise again? It would seem that if "things" have been created out of nothing once, this will continue to happen.

Edited June 28, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[Adamq8]

4 hours ago, Tim R said:

@Adamq8

There are four underlying assumptions:

1. - death is real and "happens" to "you"
2. - there is such a thing as experience and it has an opposite: non-experience
3. - experience "ceases" to be when you are dead
4. - non-existence

Contemplate those.

Let's say your right and when you die, experience completely ceases to be. And it will be as if you had never been alive. But what would it be like to "stop"? Well you can't even call it "stop" because it didn't ever stop. There is no contrast. There never wasn't any "start", so there is no stop. Contemplate that. Maybe experience can never cease because it never began. 

Tell me, is the present moment something that is beginning or ending? Or is it timeless? How can something timeless "end"? 

And what about non-existence? How can non-existence "exist"? 

Is there such a thing as non-experience? And what is experience anyway? Are you experiencing the universe? Or is experience identical with the universe? 

And who are you? Are "you" something that can die? Are you bound by time? Or are you just an illusion and so your death? 

 

So there's a couple of things for you to contemplate. Always be careful with underlying assumptions when making metaphysical claims.

What do you mean?

Nice questions and it definetly is something to contemplate.

What I meant with this inquiry is that, according to the vast majority of scientist which is ofcourse materialists claims that conciousness is a brain function and when the brain ceases so does conciousness. 

IE it is a transistion from "alive" existence to "dead " non existence.

Obviously they have no clear consistent evidence in favor of this claim.

If we really investigate it, it is conciousness that has " brains" if that makes sense.

When im refering to the "who" is ofcourse conciousness. 

It is the one enabling this, whatever it is.

Universe = conciousness 

Conciousness = Universe,  there is clearly zero seperation between the two.

So it is not two.

What I mean with experiences, is that we can label this = experience in the limited sense of language. 

There is either eternity of this how ever it might be or it will be eternity of not this.

Hehe if that makes any sense.

This is more of a philosophical inquiry then anything else, but it has real implications nevertheless imho.

Either non existence is true and real or it is not, thats what am getting at.

 

[Adamq8]

5 hours ago, tsuki said:

Materialist metaphysics is empirically false. We were all dead before we were born and now we are alive. Why assume that something else will happen after this body is dead?

Yeah I dont see how the odds of us being here, contemplated it yesterday of wtf why do I even exist it is literally insane, like wtf is this reality, the logical conclusion is that reality is and that it is not two.

But really contemplate, how come "you" exist?

 

[Adamq8]

4 hours ago, Eternal Unity said:

Out of those: The Experience of Consciousness/Universal Mind. 

Right, because it is unending and eternity of joy when the suffering is integrated as an illusion. 

I had some mystical experiences into the nature of love, wisdom and time. They helped me, along with inner consciousness work, to have a stable and peaceful life.

The contemplation of death is also important but only raises more questions, in my opinion - which is good, but I like knowing better than not knowing

Greg

Yes nice Greg ? seeing will happen about the nature of death and life sooner or later, no need to fear anything, glad that you feel peaceful 

[Adamq8]

2 hours ago, Breakingthewall said:

It seems obvious that your conscience and mine, if you completely remove the memory, are exactly the same. the experience we are having, to which we give meaning, centered in the self, makes it seem like two different consciousnesses, but it seems clear that this is a forced illusion, trick to keep the body alive.

If we accept this, it is obvious that when my body dies, my experience of the self will disappear, but the consciousness that is being, will continue to be in you.

The question is what would happen if all the universe turns off and disappears, and there is nothing left. the timeless undifferentiated emptiness. would "something" arise again? It would seem that if "things" have been created out of nothing once, this will continue to happen.

Yes the same iamness in me is the same within you, I just feel that experience continues in very different forms all the time, like a field of transpersonal phenomena, like a psychedelic trip almost 

[Gnosis]

Infinite postulations possible with physics.

No postulations possible with metaphysics.

[Adamq8]

35 minutes ago, Gnosis said:

Infinite postulations possible with physics.

No postulations possible with metaphysics.

Care to elaborate??

[LastThursday]

With these sorts of contemplations there is an underlying need that doesn't get questioned. That is, will "I" continue after death? The answer is, of course not. Awareness may well continue after death, but it's a kind of anticlimax because @Adamq8 won't be around to appreciate it. Then again the "I" continues to die and be reborn constantly even when living.

When I was around 13 I used to sit on the bus home from school and contemplate what I would be like when I was 27 (the year 2000 seemed good and futuristic to contemplate). I had no idea except I thought I would be married with kids. When I hit 27, it was nothing like I thought it was, and sadly I was no longer 13 to appreciate it as that was a distant memory. Now I'm 48 both of those ages seem like a haze on the horizon of my past. Three different ages, three different "I"s, three different deaths and rebirths.

Edited June 28, 2021 by LastThursday

[Someone here]

I think the only way to know is after you're actually dead. Anything else will be mere speculation. 

Edited June 29, 2021 by Someone here

[Eternal Unity]

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

I think the only way to know is after you're actually dead. Anything else will be mere speculation. 

I believe that is not the only way. You can know while in the body. The full realization of truth. All knowledge is open to you then, including after death experiences.

[Someone here]

17 hours ago, Eternal Unity said:

I believe that is not the only way. You can know while in the body. The full realization of truth. All knowledge is open to you then, including after death experiences.

What do you think of after death? 

 

[Eternal Unity]

On 28.6.2021 at 8:11 PM, Adamq8 said:

Yes nice Greg ? seeing will happen about the nature of death and life sooner or later, no need to fear anything, glad that you feel peaceful 

4 hours ago, Someone here said:

What do you think of after death? 

It is experienced in stages and it varies for each individual. Personally, I had a Near Death Experience when i was 22. Many things were revealed to me and some of which I still integrate, almost 11 years later.

Basically, that there is, indeed, nothing to be afraid of. Life goes on. It is my choice whether to continue or to go back. When a person chooses to move on he is cradled by love, spirit guides, angels, relatives who's gone before and other beings who have a close connection to the deceased. All is done with the utmost compassion and a feeling of utter peace surrounds the early afterlife environment.

[Scholar]

On 28.6.2021 at 8:05 AM, Adamq8 said:

Hi guys!

Sat yesterday contemplating after listening to a podcast with Bernardo Kastrup and it hit me that there is only 2 metaphysics that can be postulated really.

Sure how it works and so forth is a matter of a different discussion but the 2 metaphysics we can really postulate is about death.

Either it is the materialism mindset of there will be no experience when death occurs, when you are dead experience ceases to exist and everything goes to non existence for eternity.

The other is that experience is fundamental to reality IE conciousness/Mind and that experience will never cease to be, it will be an eternity of Joy but also a immense eternity of your own hell and suffering.

Sure we have deep sleep but experience always reboots since the ground is a transpersonal "field" of "subjective" experiences.

Either we suffer 1 time and then it is lights out or we will suffer for eternity but memory might not follow in between lifes.

If it is true that GOD IS and GOD is eternal it means that conciousness is eternal and all we can do is dream dreams, and when death comes we wake up to realize it was a dream all along.

Which one would you prefer and why? And what does experiences point to in your honest opinion?

 

 

The true question here is, can non-existence exist? If you claim after death there is non-existence, well, that's no problem. Because non-existence doesn't exist, therefore what will happen can only be existence.

 

To postulate that non-existence exists is absurd. How can the cessation of existence exist? What would it mean for non-existence to be eternal? Is it not the case that from the perspective of non-existence, eternity would pass in no time at all? If this is true, an eternity of non-existence would pass instantly.

 

What would this mean? It would mean that upon your death, all existing things would instantly cease to exist from your perspective. This means, that upon your death, all of reality dies with you. All form comes to an end, and then there is only formlessness.

And now ask yourself, what was before your birth? If death is non-existence, is prior birth not non-existence too? And if the non-existence of prior birth let to birth, why do you assume that the non-existence after death would lead to anything else but birth?

[Breakingthewall]

1 hour ago, Scholar said:

And if the non-existence of prior birth let to birth, why do you assume that the non-existence after death would lead to anything else but birth?

Yeah , if once out of non-existence existence arose, it will do so again. non-existence does not exist, so it has no duration, it is instantaneous, so you will instantly continue to exist, since non-existence does not exist.

for me the impossible question is: how can existence exist?

Edited June 30, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[RendHeaven]

All nonsense.

Get in touch with Direct Experience Here-Now.

There is no death.

[Gnosis]

On 6/28/2021 at 2:09 PM, Adamq8 said:

Care to elaborate??

Outside of searching and finding, where is the genuine person?