The probability the exernal world exists in any way anything perceives it is zero

[RMQualtrough]

I have been thinking about this.

Our model of the external world is built by perceptions. Our perceptions of the external world can alter dramatically and yet it can still function as expected.

An example: If a tape measure from your eyes to the screen measures 30cm, if you were to ingest some psychedelics, it is possible the screen will look twice as far away or twice as close, yet your measuring tool will also stretch or shrink to match the new perception. You can reach out and it is felt where it appears to be.

The sizes and shapes of things can change dramatically in this same sense. And yet still, we can navigate this new landscape and it works as expected. Experiments yield the same results, measuring tools show the same measurements.

If something can look half as near, why not quarter as near, an eighth as near? Why not 10x as far? WHY would there be any limit at all as to the ways in which it can be perceived?

If there are no limits on the way it can be perceived, then it can be perceived in infinite ways. If it can be perceived in infinite ways, then the probability that any single one of those possible perceptions of the external world being correct, becomes zero mathematically.

There is 0% probability that any element of the external world exists objectively in the way that we perceive it. There is 0% probability that ANYTHING that perceives the external world (other animals, plants, whatever) perceives it as it exists objectively and independently from that observer.

If there is 0% chance that an external world exists in any way in which it can possibly be perceived, then how can it be said to exist objectively at all?

[RobertZ]

 

From the perspective of an ameoba or a proton,  the television screen does not 'appear' to be 30 centemeters away. Naturally, I do not have a galaxy or an atom’s perspective on space. Taking on alternate perspectives can help me to understand the relativity of things; but I also have a limited perspective of space (and territory) rooted in my instincts and socialization.

There is also a distinction between an infinity of potential perspectives and infinity of actual perspectives (as if infinity were a number).

For example, take the thought experiment of a cup falling to the ground. Before a cup falls the whole way to the floor, it has to fall half way, right? Then, once it falls half way--it again has to fall another half way of its current distance from the ground before it can fall the whole way. So, on and on--before the cup can hit the ground, it must reach half of the way of the distance, and then half of that distance, and then half of that distance forever--before it ever hits the ground. Therefore, the cup will never hit the ground because it must pass an infinity of locations (never mind the nature of atomic distances). 

This thought experiment conflates the distinction between potential 'halfs' and active movement. Another way of looking at the problem is lthis:  First, the cup potentially touched the floor; then it actually touched the floor.

There are potentially an infinite number of perspectives on my distance to the TV screen. My eyes are potentially 30 cm away from the screen--first my eyes are >30 cm from the screen, then they are <30 cm away from the screen...

It's not "absolutely" true that my eyes were 30 cm from the screen because my eyes, the tv, and space have relative existences. Amid the possible perspectives on the space between my eyes and the TV, maybe it's just extremely lucky (approaching infinitely improbable) that the space is 30 cm--but as luck has it, my eyes were 30 cm from the screen; or maybe it's approaching absolutely necessary that the distance must be 30 cm (e.g., assuming many alternate universes). However, neither the TV, nor my eyes, have an absolute existence. In some sense, 'there is no eyes or TVs.' At least I can say it is false that my eyes are 30 cm from the TV 1000 years ago. People even say that space itself can change in other dimensions, such as actualizing over timebending in relationship to gravity.

Edited June 27, 2021 by RobertZ

[RMQualtrough]

Subjective experience would not be confined by the laws of space and time as the falling teacup is, I think it might be legitimately unlimited. If not within your human self then potentially in some other creature.

If the odds of any perception correctly matching what is actually out there goes to 0% as it would be in such a scenario of infinity, then it must be what cannot be perceived. There is only one thing that cannot be perceived: Literal nothing. What's out there must be literally nothing, which is why it can appear as anything.

There's nothing out there lmao. There is literally nothing out there.

Edited June 27, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[Zeroguy]

4 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

I have been thinking about this.

Thank goodness, saved myself from this. 

Sums it up all. 

Who wants to deal with inquirers and philosophers. 

I don't. 

Goodbye guys was pleasure. 

[gettoefl]

you are the projector and in addition you are the projection, time and space are nothing but devices you made to help you sift through your projection

Edited June 27, 2021 by gettoefl

[snowyowl]

The thought of 'I perceive that' or internal subjective vs external objective world is already to assume this dual split exists. After all, I over here exist within your external world, so which am I, internal or external? If I drop the assumed model of perceiver and perceived, it's not the end of the world, reality remains as it always was, nothing is lost except the thought of separation. 

[Breakingthewall]

on a materialistic level, everything you perceive is a creation of your brain. everything you see is created by the back of your brain in real time from light impulses entering your retinas. quite a job. so there is nothing strange that this can vary with psychedelics since It's not the real world, it's a good imitation that your brain does

Edited June 27, 2021 by Breakingthewall

[RobertZ]

5 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

There's nothing out there lmao. There is literally nothing out there.

Nice statement

[Leo Gura]

7 hours ago, RMQualtrough said:

There is 0% probability that any element of the external world exists objectively in the way that we perceive it. There is 0% probability that ANYTHING that perceives the external world (other animals, plants, whatever) perceives it as it exists objectively and independently from that observer.

Your thinking is not radical enough to be true.

Experience IS the world. There is nothing external to experience. Experience is Absolute Truth. Probabilities here are irrelevant. Become 100% conscious that your consciousness is all there is. You have 100% direct access to the entire world. You've been looking at it your whole life. Whatever you see IS Absolute.

You are not awake so long as you think there is even a 0.00000000000000000001% chance of an external world outside of consciousness.

Consciousness is Infinity/One. Get that. The end.

[OBEler]

1 hour ago, Leo Gura said:

You have 100% direct access to the entire world. You've been looking at it your whole life. Whatever you see IS Absolute.

You are not awake so long as you think there is even a 0.00000000000000000001% chance of an external world outside of consciousness.

Consciousness is Infinity/One. Get that. The end.

You Do talk about God consciousness are you? 

The human consciousness is limited. I right now as human dont have access to the entire Universen which includes Mars, Jupiter and so on. I could with psychedelica but right now I dont have really. 

But from gods perspective my human body is inside consciousness. So therefore I experience every Planet, human,and so on right now. Everything is in consciousness. Consciousness is inside consciousness is inside consciousness to infinity so at the end just one consciousness(god) with infinity sub consciousness in this one. 

Hope I dont misunderstand you

Edited June 27, 2021 by OBEler

[Leo Gura]

38 minutes ago, OBEler said:

You Do talk about God consciousness are you? 

There is only one consciousness. This is it. No other.

Whatever other consciousness you think exists you are imaging it right now in this consciousness.

Quote

The human consciousness is limited. I right now as human dont have access to the entire Universen which includes Mars, Jupiter and so on. I could with psychedelica but right now I dont have really.

It only appears limited because you keep imagining something beyond the present moment.

Mars, Jupiter, etc. is all stuff you're imagining right now. You have 100% direct access to the Absolute fact that you are imagining Mars.

[Inliytened1]

35 minutes ago, OBEler said:

You Do talk about God consciousness are you? 

The human consciousness is limited. I right now as human dont have access to the entire Universen which includes Mars, Jupiter and so on. I could with psychedelica but right now I dont have really. 

But from gods perspective my human body is inside consciousness. So therefore I experience every Planet, human,and so on right now. Everything is in consciousness. Consciousness is inside consciousness is inside consciousness to infinity so at the end just one consciousness(god) with infinity sub consciousness in this one. 

Hope I dont misunderstand you

It's exactly like a dream you have at night.  Your not conscious that you are dreaming the whole thing until you wake up.  While dreaming you are playing some character within the dream.  But there was always one Mind.

[RMQualtrough]

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

Your thinking is not radical enough to be true.

Experience IS the world. There is nothing external to experience. Experience is Absolute Truth. Probabilities here are irrelevant. Become 100% conscious that your consciousness is all there is. You have 100% direct access to the entire world. You've been looking at it your whole life. Whatever you see IS Absolute.

You are not awake so long as you think there is even a 0.00000000000000000001% chance of an external world outside of consciousness.

Consciousness is Infinity/One. Get that. The end.

Yes you are right. It is mathematically impossible that an external world is really there. If it were a "thing" then it would be possible for something to perceive it as such, but in infinity (there is zero limit on what could be subjectively perceived), the probability any perception is correct is 0. So the probability the external world is anything at all is 0.

The only thing that can "be there" is what is not possibly perceived. The only "thing" that is not possible to perceive is literal nothing.

There is therefore a 100% chance that there is literally nothing external from perception. AKA there is only perception.

If there is nothing external from here then all points of perception are here. If all points of perception are here, all "localized consciousnesses" are here, and hence consciousness is one.

There cannot be an external world it is a mathematical impossibility.

There is literally nothing out there. The only thing that exists is me. And people will say "but what about me!" They are also right when they say "there is nothing but me", because there is only one consciousness, and all of us are that. Whenever any of us say "the only thing that exists is me" every one of us is correct. There is only me. That includes you, because there's no such thing as the concept of a "you" from any "me"'s point of view because there is nothing external and hence no separation. To say "you" implies there is someone separate from the one singular consciousness.

I don't mean to imply classical solipsism, I believe you all have minds and perceptions. I just want everyone to say "there is nothing but me".

Edited June 27, 2021 by RMQualtrough

[OBEler]

@Leo Gura

2 hours ago, Leo Gura said:

There is only one consciousness. This is it. No other.

Whatever other consciousness you think exists you are imaging it right now in this consciousness.

It only appears limited because you keep imagining something beyond the present moment.

Mars, Jupiter, etc. is all stuff you're imagining right now. You have 100% direct access to the Absolute fact that you are imagining Mars.

@Leo Gura

Ok so like Rupert spira said I as god imagine the whole Universe and in this big Imagination I localized myself t through humans, animals, Atoms and so on to perceive this whole thing called me. Exact right now I as God have infinite perceptions

 

 

 

1 hour ago, RMQualtrough said:

 

[actualizing25]

@Leo Gura So there is just my consciousness and other people who I see dont have their own worlds like I have?

[Guest Edvardas]

6 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@Leo Gura So there is just my consciousness and other people who I see dont have their own worlds like I have?

Yeh, also stuck on this one. Is my perspective the only one, exactly like in a night dream, or does this waking dream have multiple me's from different perspectives?

If I simply look at my own experience, then no, there is no way to confirm that others have their own experiences.

Yet, isn't it possible that I just limit my perception to one perspective at a time?

I am making a little jump with this possibility because I haven't experienced multiple perspectives at a single time.

But this little jump changes the whole thing.

I guess I need a DMT breakthrough to infinite consciousness (if I understand that term correctly before experiencing it, which is a big IF) or something of that sort. 

Edited June 27, 2021 by Edvardas

[RMQualtrough]

16 minutes ago, actualizing25 said:

@Leo Gura So there is just my consciousness and other people who I see dont have their own worlds like I have?

Not sure what Leo will say, but they do it's just they're no different from say, your subconscious. But more like we're all subconscious aspects of God's mind including you.

It is mathematically impossible there is an external world. If there's no external world there's no such thing as "here" and "there". When you see someone "there" they must actually be "here" because there's no such thing as out there.

Their perspective is superimposed on yours and every other perspective. The consciousness aware of them all is what both you and I refer to as "me".

[The0Self]

Yeah that’s much of what emptiness teachings refer to.

But where is the physical world apart from the perception of it? The appearance of materiality is dependent on how and where it is perceived, and where it is perceived from. Its actuality is not separate from its appearance. It’s not even an it. The physical world, materiality, is everything, and not the slightest bit different from This / Consciousness / no-thing.

Edited June 27, 2021 by The0Self