Vaccine

[kamill]

Hi people.

 

I just had this big argument with my dad about vaccine. I just so confuses, he is conservative a tries to push his believes on me and sometimes i partially agree. He claims it is pure business for the rich and has really strong arguments. He says is the biggest and best marketing strategy he has ever seen.

 

He says corporations literally have teams who are tought how to mislead people and make the get the vaccine.

 

Idk what to think I really respect him, he is CEO of a company with over 200 people and seen whole world.

 

What are your thoughts guys ?  

[GermanGuy]

Hey, 

I think your dad is dangerous to your brain with his "really strong" arguments. Pls get the vaccine and dont spread conspiracy theories that are against the narrativ of the mainstream. There was never ever a time in history were the mainstream narrativ was wrong or were the big pharma made billions of dollars by damaging people. 

 I would say to your dad as following:

"Dad, i know that the vaccine are not tested and highly experimental and the few clinical trials are more than questionable BUT im a part of an open minded community and they need to be right dad! Im going to get the shot and ask questions about the huge censorship around the negative side effects later" 

[Consept]

On 26/06/2021 at 6:52 PM, kamill said:

Hi people.

 

I just had this big argument with my dad about vaccine. I just so confuses, he is conservative a tries to push his believes on me and sometimes i partially agree. He claims it is pure business for the rich and has really strong arguments. He says is the biggest and best marketing strategy he has ever seen.

 

He says corporations literally have teams who are tought how to mislead people and make the get the vaccine.

 

Idk what to think I really respect him, he is CEO of a company with over 200 people and seen whole world.

 

What are your thoughts guys ?  

Heres the thing your dad is right in some respects, there obviously has to be some kind of marketing campaign to get people to take the vaccine but this would be the same if it was to get people to eat healthy or not commit crimes or whatever else could be classed as something that will help society. It would also be necessary for anything that youre trying to sell or get people to take part in that might not be good for society, basically for mass take up of anything, good or bad there will need to be marketing, theres no way around that. Assume for a second that everything about covid is true and vaccines do work and are the way out, this would have to be communicated to the public in some way otherwise people wouldnt take it seriously and uptake probably wouldnt be that great. 

Doing the whole thing for profit is an argument ive heard but i dont really buy it. The vaccine costs from $2-$15 per dose, lets go on the high end of the average and say its $10 and lets say everyone gets 2 doses. With a world population of 8 billion, that works out at $160 billion total if everyone gets vaccinated which they probably wont. Now you might think thats quite a lot and the profit would be worth out, but when you take into account that over 200 groups were trying to develop a vaccine, successful or not each one would need funding of anywhere from $150 million to a few billion $. Also the size of the whole pharma market is worth around $1.3 trillion per year which is 1,300 billion dollars. So then you have to ask was it worth shutting down the economy just for maybe 12% extra than what they wouldve made in a normal year? Also the vaccines are just 1 or 2 doses in theory forever or lets even say per year, how would it make sense to produce a vaccine at a cost and risk that it might not even be viable over just promoting medicines they already have developed that people would have to take forever?

For context the alternative medicine market is valued at around $82 billion, if you take away the covid vaccines it usually makes more than a normal vaccine year. What you usually find is those at the head of anti-vax movements usually have a lot of money at stake as well. For example Dr Buttar made a lot of money from alternative therapies, claiming to be able to cure things like cancer as well as now covid whilst charging patients $1000s and not having any positive results. This isnt to say everyone in the movement is just out for money but there is a lot of money being made from these views, you could probably say the same about pharma companies as well. Only difference being pharma tends to have a lot more testing and whatnot. 

This isnt to say Big Pharma are perfect, far from it, there are many issues and things i dont agree with but for now, at our level of consciousness anything thats a necessity and makes profit will not be perfect.  

[Tanz]

If you treat your body like shit get the vaccine.  If you are old get the vaccine. If you are scared of dying from covid get the vaccine.  There have been people I know of that took it can still got tested positive with covid with mild symptoms, there are people I know of that had covid and never had symptoms at all and were okie and didn't take the vaccine.  Theoretically, you can still spread covid after getting the vaccine, especially if it's a new variant in which the vaccines were designed for the older one.  

Forget about conspiracy theories, the fact of the matter is humans adapt and within 2 years this virus is going to be less and less lethal. Doctors have a good treatment protocol by now and people are dying less compared when it was new.

You can always do an antibody test to see if you already have natural immunity.  

Edited June 30, 2021 by Tanz

[Village]

On 6/30/2021 at 10:24 AM, GermanGuy said:

Hey, 

I think your dad is dangerous to your brain with his "really strong" arguments. Pls get the vaccine and dont spread conspiracy theories that are against the narrativ of the mainstream. There was never ever a time in history were the mainstream narrativ was wrong or were the big pharma made billions of dollars by damaging people. 

 I would say to your dad as following:

"Dad, i know that the vaccine are not tested and highly experimental and the few clinical trials are more than questionable BUT im a part of an open minded community and they need to be right dad! Im going to get the shot and ask questions about the huge censorship around the negative side effects later" 

Are you by chance one of the people who get paid for pushing the vaccine, like the type OP's dad mentioned? LOL.

[Harlen Kelly]

@Village One of the first guidelines of the forum is to not spread misinformation or conspiracy theories about the vaccine. 

• No conspiracy theories: Covid hoax, 9/11 inside job, David Icke stuff, reptilians, Pizzagate, QAnnon, pedophilia accusations, the Jewish question, holocaust denial, etc.

 

[Village]

@Harlen Kelly It was a joke.

[Blackhawk]

Food, toilets, beds, antibiotics, defibrillators, pacemakers, chemotherapy, heart medications, etc. etc. generate money too.

So because companies earn money from everything which is good for us, we should stop using and buying the products?

The entire healthcare system in USA is run by companies, so you have to deny all healthcare too.

You probably pay or have paid some company for your house/apartment/whatever, so you need to become homeless too.

You need to be consistent and not only reject vaccines, but also reject everything else in life.

Edited July 3, 2021 by Blackhawk

[cookiemonster]

If you're familiar with video-games, the best way to think of the COVID vaccine is analogous to Cyberpunk 2077.

It's a money-driven, rushed production, full of bugs with a risk of crashing your machine.

This is why choosing not to take the COVID vaccine is not the same as being anti-vax. It would be like saying that being critical of Cyberpunk 2077 is equivalent to being anti-videogame.

No-one has an issue with vaccinations in general. The problem is that these particular COVID vaccinations are really crappily produced.

 

[Blackhawk]

59 minutes ago, cookiemonster said:

If you're familiar with video-games, the best way to think of the COVID vaccine is analogous to Cyberpunk 2077.

It's a money-driven, rushed production, full of bugs with a risk of crashing your machine.

This is why choosing not to take the COVID vaccine is not the same as being anti-vax. It would be like saying that being critical of Cyberpunk 2077 is equivalent to being anti-videogame.

No-one has an issue with vaccinations in general. The problem is that these particular COVID vaccinations are really crappily produced.

No they aren't crappily produced.

Reasons why the vaccines could come faster than before:

1. It's a new and better technology (mRNA).

2. Much more money and resources put into the development. 

3. Increased cooperation between companies, institutions and authorities in the development.

4. They already had done a lot of research about other coronaviruses. The genetic code for SARS and MERS is 80% identical to COVID-19. So the genetical code for COVID-19 got mapped out fast. So a lot of the work was already done before COVID-19 came.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Blackhawk

[cookiemonster]

32 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

Reasons why the vaccines could come faster than before

It's not a question of being faster. It's about being rushed, poorly tested, and at best ineffective, inefficient and unsafe.

 

32 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

1. It's a new and better technology (mRNA).

It's true that Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA vaccines. The others are adenoviral vectors.

But this is all irrelevant, because the issues concerning vaccine malfunction in all cases don't pertain to delivery method but rather the emerging problems that relate to the spike protein. In all cases, the end-product of the COVID vaccines are the spike proteins. With that in mind, we now know that:-

1) The spike proteins are not behaving as expected. (e.g They are moving around the body randomly).

2) They are more cytotoxic than first thought.

Malone, Kirsch, Weinstein et al have discussed the implications of this, with particular reference to accumulation in bone marrow, the testes and the ovaries being a significant alert signal. Yet the primary takeaway (as of now) is that no-one knows how this is all going to play out.

Therefore the vaccines cannot possibly be described as 'better tech' until we know what the long-term data is. Anyone taking the vaccines right now should understand that it is experimental technology, and you have to take full responsibility for any problems that might arise in the future.

Or in other words, if you develop blood cancer or are rendered permanently infertile in the future, you're just going to have to suck it up. It was your choice and you understood the risks.

 

32 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

2. Much more money and resources put into the development. 

 

Same with Cyberpunk 2077. Means nothing.

 

32 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

The genetic code for SARS and MERS is 80% identical to COVID-19. So the genetical code for COVID-19 got mapped out fast.

 

That's true. But it doesn't change the issue of the spike protein.

According to Malone (based on data emerging from Israel) for every 3 lives that the vaccine saves, it takes 2.

So as of now on net the vaccines are just about winning, but it rests on a knife-edge of gross inefficiency. For one thing that data has not been age-adjusted, so where the majority of deaths from COVID are occurring in the elderly and immuno-compromised, the burden of risk from the vaccines is shared across all age groups and all health conditions.

If you factor in that the vaccine deaths/injuries are only the short-term indications and speak nothing of the longer-term indications, then the risk/reward ratio becomes more murky.

 

Edited July 4, 2021 by cookiemonster

[Blackhawk]

1 hour ago, cookiemonster said:

It's not a question of being faster. It's about being rushed, poorly tested, and at best ineffective, inefficient and unsafe.

 

It's true that Pfizer and Moderna are mRNA vaccines. The others are adenoviral vectors.

But this is all irrelevant, because the issues concerning vaccine malfunction in all cases don't pertain to delivery method but rather the emerging problems that relate to the spike protein. In all cases, the end-product of the COVID vaccines are the spike proteins. With that in mind, we now know that:-

1) The spike proteins are not behaving as expected. (e.g They are moving around the body randomly).

2) They are more cytotoxic than first thought.

Malone, Kirsch, Weinstein et al have discussed the implications of this, with particular reference to accumulation in bone marrow, the testes and the ovaries being a significant alert signal. Yet the primary takeaway (as of now) is that no-one knows how this is all going to play out.

Therefore the vaccines cannot possibly be described as 'better tech' until we know what the long-term data is. Anyone taking the vaccines right now should understand that it is experimental technology, and you have to take full responsibility for any problems that might arise in the future.

Or in other words, if you develop blood cancer or are rendered permanently infertile in the future, you're just going to have to suck it up. It was your choice and you understood the risks.

 

 

Same with Cyberpunk 2077. Means nothing.

 

 

That's true. But it doesn't change the issue of the spike protein.

According to Malone (based on data emerging from Israel) for every 3 lives that the vaccine saves, it takes 2.

So as of now on net the vaccines are just about winning, but it rests on a knife-edge of gross inefficiency. For one thing that data has not been age-adjusted, so where the majority of deaths from COVID are occurring in the elderly and immuno-compromised, the burden of risk from the vaccines is shared across all age groups and all health conditions.

If you factor in that the vaccine deaths/injuries are only the short-term indications and speak nothing of the longer-term indications, then the risk/reward ratio becomes more murky.

The risks are simply much bigger if you don't take the vaccine.

You are dismissing science because you are afraid.

If you kill your parents, grandparents or someone else because you didn't take the vaccine you are morally guilty of causing another's death. And also if you cause suffering to others because you didn't take the vaccine. You're super selfish.

Edited July 4, 2021 by Blackhawk

[cookiemonster]

29 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

The risks are simply much bigger if you don't take the vaccine.

 

There is simply no long-term data to support that statement and you're not in a position to do so. You use the words "simply" as if to say the objectivity can be expressed easily, and yet you haven't done so. Your personal belief that the risks are 'simply much bigger' does not equate to science through your own faith/assumption alone.

 

29 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

You are dismissing science because you are afraid.

 

A curious supposition with hues of irony. What evidence do you have of this unfounded assumption? What would I be afraid of, and how does that invalidate my words previously written.

I'm not going to accuse you of projection but you need to support such statements. Otherwise it's just a weird thing to write.

 

29 minutes ago, Blackhawk said:

If you kill your parents, grandparents or someone else because you didn't take the vaccine you are morally guilty of causing another's death. And also if you cause suffering to others because you didn't take the vaccine.

 

That's your own subjective judgement, but I'm starting to see where your mindset is now, particularly in regard to the curious injection of this 'being afraid' thing. You cannot boil down morality into a simple algorithm of "take my solution or else".

It's clear you don't really know what you're talking about and seemingly lack the necessary faculties to talk about such things.

Edited July 4, 2021 by cookiemonster

[Mannyb]

@Blackhawk answer pending

[OneHandClap]

I got the vaccine months ago. It's up to you to use Occam's razor here. What seems more probable... that this vaccine is one of hundreds of vaccines to be produced, and that vaccines have historically preserved human life (and quality of life) better than anything else we've tried during pandemics... or, that the vaccine is some sort of global Illuminati plot to inject you with a tracker and enslave the human race for some unknown, terrifying purpose?

I've made my bet. Make yours. 

[Mannyb]

@OneHandClap Why the need to straw-man to make an argument? This is a serious conversation.

[Opo]

Lol still mad. 

[OneHandClap]

2 hours ago, Mannyb said:

@OneHandClap Why the need to straw-man to make an argument? This is a serious conversation.

Oh, it's serious alright. Look how many people in Republican-dominated areas have died as a result of being more afraid of a vaccine than the very virus that is killing them and their elderly relatives. 

Again, Occam's razor. The proof is in the pudding. 

[Mannyb]

@OneHandClap What are you trying to achieve with this attitude? 
Not trying to confront you in case that’s what you’re looking for. 
Just question the one who is looking for such a confrontation. 
We all want to live in love and harmony, that’s the purpose of our community here.
What you’re doing is what actually resembles hate speech that others are being accused of for trying to have these conversations in a serene and respectful manner out of love and respect. I understand that you’re trying to make a point, be more gentle and open to what your fellow actualizers might say themselves. Aho Great Spirit Namaste ?? 

Edited July 18, 2021 by Mannyb

[Leo Gura]

Stop spreading conspiracy theories.