The value of marriage & kids

[Terell Kirby]

I’m a male in my early 30s. It seems like many of us that are my age are starting move further away from the wanting to build a traditional nuclear family. Me personally, I would love a wife and kids some day, but the anxiety around it is slowly decreasing. It is no longer one of those things I freak out about (but I still know plenty of people that do).

Do you share the same orientation towards marriage and a family? Where is society going with this? How do genders and age groups differ on the subject? From a collective perspective, is this harmful or beneficial to the advancement of civilization?

[Peter Miklis]

I think marriage is a bullshit concept, but having kids is not benefitial for society, it's literaly necessary lol. Society slowly dies if it's birth rate is below 2.

However, from an individual, selfish perspective, I'd say it's better to not have kids. You can't really work on yourself and reach your full potential, if you got a couple of kids running around, bills to pay, and wife/girlfriend (who's hopefully supportive, and not a bitch, I mean you're really playing russian rullete with that one?) all at the same time. It's not only financially, but psychologically draining. Having family is not for everyone.

[Terell Kirby]

@Peter Miklis ? all good points. I guess I wouldn’t necessarily call it selfish to not want kids and commit your life to personal growth and self actualization, that may ultimately be the selfless thing to do in which you are offering your gifts and talents to the world.

I’ve seen selfish parents who have kids to be their personal servants, thus leaving them inflicted with trauma and having them do all kinds of dysfunctional things in society that harm others.

I’d like to have kids but only if my psychological and physical resources, and that of my spouse, are up to par. So many people get involved in marriages without thinking deeply about the dynamics at play. Explains a lot of abusive and toxic family situations where everyone loses, especially the kids.

[Mason Riggle]

Ditto what @Peter Miklis said.  

I like to think of my marriage as a commitment between two people (think wedding vows).  Institutions and Governments think of it differently, so be careful.  A 'legal marriage' is a legally binding contract, no different than a business contract. 

Do you want to share a commitment with someone to raise children? If so, then I say go for it.. if that's not what you really want, then don't. 

Having a family can be extremely rewarding, but as Peter noted, it's not all fun and games.  Are you prepared for the day when you're holding your wife's hand as she's dying from Cancer? Or the day your son wraps his car around a telephone pole?   

Do you have enough love in your heart to go and get your hands dirty? 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Mason Riggle

[Terell Kirby]

@Mason Riggle thanks so much for sharing. I’ve also heard of the rewards of marriage, and have seen some good examples.

[Peter Miklis]

@Terell Kirby @Mason Riggle An ideal version of marriage would be an unofficial one, where you just have the ceremony, give each other kiss, and tadaaa. You're married. With no contract from the state. If you're really about commitement, this is the way to go.

[Mason Riggle]

@Peter Miklis yep, that's what we did.   We eventually did get 'officially married', because it was easier to get her on my health insurance that way, and, should the situation ever arise where one of us has to make life or death choices for the other when they are unable to do so on their own, we legally can. 

[Harlen Kelly]

@Terell Kirby Approximately 52% of marriages end in divorce, and about 80% of divorces are filed by women. 

Keep those statistics in mind if you decide to get married. I personally think is foolish and unwise (particularly if you are a man), there is no need for a contractual agreement to have a thriving relationship. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[Terell Kirby]

41 minutes ago, Harlen Kelly said:

@Terell Kirby Approximately 52% of marriages end in divorce, and about 80% of divorces are filed by women. 

Keep those statistics in mind if you decide to get married. I personally think is foolish and unwise (particularly if you are a man), there is no need for a contractual agreement to have a thriving relationship. 

Hard data always helps! It’s crazy that numbers are that high. Question is, should be zoom in on the concept of marriage itself, or the dysfunction/neuroticism of the individuals involved? I find that we often get the two mixed up..I can see marriage being rooted in good intentions for positive purposes, but given bad name due to the ignorance of couples and their choices.

[bejapuskas]

@Harlen Kelly  Similar number of women also do not frequently orgasm or like never orgasm at all. So many guys are toxic. Women also. I am not surprised. Consent, female pleasure, honest communication is not taught in sex ed at all. These results are what is to be expected in such conditions.

3 hours ago, Peter Miklis said:

I think marriage is a bullshit concept, but having kids is not benefitial for society, it's literaly necessary lol. Society slowly dies if it's birth rate is below 2.

As if people were the endangered species here. This really should not worry you. People who decide not to have kids are heroes these days.

[Harlen Kelly]

@bejapuskas Women file for divorce because statistically speaking it benefits them most of the time which is why I consider it foolish to enter a contractual agreement where you are at a significant disadvantage. This is backed up by statistical data.

It's not because guys are ''toxic'' that 80% of women file for divorce. 

Edited June 22, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[bejapuskas]

@Harlen Kelly  Instead of learning about what makes a happy relationship you decide to escape, that's victim mindset. If 52 % of marriages end in divorce and 80 % of the time it is initiated by a women who benefit from it... Do you mean like most guys are sugar daddies and their wives married them only for money? Do you think that's the most common reason for divorce? Sure I mean when it comes to kids, women are in an advantage, but man, it is not just numbers sometimes. Most people are not honest enough to handle anything serious.

[Harlen Kelly]

20 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

 Instead of learning about what makes a happy relationship you decide to escape, that's victim mindset.

Do you need to enter a governmental/contractual agreement to foment a loving, long-term, interdependent relationship with your partner?

22 minutes ago, bejapuskas said:

Do you mean like most guys are sugar daddies and their wives married them only for money?

Statistically speaking, men tend to have more assets than women when married. Men tend to have more to lose than women. 

High divorce rates are a feature of modernity, secularism, and egalitarianism, not a bug. The countries that rank the highest in terms of egalitarianism and protection for women in general are the countries with some the highest divorce rates, and the countries that rank low in egalitarianism have some of the lowest divorce rates such as iran, kenya, turkey, to name a few.

The more advanced and equal societies become, the more irrelevant traditions such as marriage become. 

[Terell Kirby]

1 hour ago, Harlen Kelly said:

It's not because guys are ''toxic'' that 80% of women file for divorce. 

I see what you're saying in terms of divorce favoring women, but I don't think all women who divorce due to strictly for financial gain. There are cases of abuse, neglect, infidelity etc that could lead men and women to divorce their partner.

From your statements, I sense a bit of a generalization towards women who decide to divorce their husbands. Not all men are innocent (neither are women). It's much more nuanced.

[Harlen Kelly]

7 minutes ago, Terell Kirby said:

I see what you're saying in terms of divorce favoring women, but I don't think all women who divorce due to strictly for financial gain. There are cases of abuse, neglect, infidelity etc that could lead men and women to divorce their partner.

Never implied is because of one reason, of course there are cases of abuse, there was much more abuse in the 1960s and divorce rates were much lower, therefore, that is not the main reason. As I said, high divorce rates are a feature of modernity, secularism, and egalitarianism, not a bug. The most advanced countries have the highest divorces rates, the most underdeveloped/traditional countries have the lowest divorce rates.

I am not passing a value judgement on marriage/divorce because I am not interested in marriage. Marriage rates will continue to decline, and divorce rates will continue to increase as societies become more advanced. 

Edited June 23, 2021 by Harlen Kelly

[Peter Miklis]

@bejapuskas I still see no argument from your side on why should men get officially married nowadays. Also, you're ignoring incompatibility here, and that sometimes, couples were simply never meant to be together. Do you want them to find that out once they're already married and have kids? Just because you have 100% control of almost everything in your life, doesn't mean mistakes cannot be made. And mistake in choosing a partner for marriage can cost you a lot, especially as a man.

13 hours ago, bejapuskas said:

As if people were the endangered species here. This really should not worry you. People who decide not to have kids are heroes these days.

Very simplistic of you. You just looked at the big picture and said "Animals endangered, hoomans not!" Yeah, of course that's true, but what's also true is that society has to have some minimal birth rate in order to function. Otherwise, the population will start to get older and older, and there will not be enough young people that can take care of old people. Do you want to die alone in some retirement home, having noone to take care of you?

Edited June 23, 2021 by Peter Miklis

[Mason Riggle]

Having kids and getting married should really be two separate endeavors.   Marriage is not at all necessary to have children, or ensure the continuation of human populations.   There are plenty of examples of animal populations where the job of the male, concerning procreation, is to simply impregnate as many females as will let him, as often as he has the urges, and that seems to work pretty well for them to ensure the continuation of their species, so really, 'procreation' has nothing to do with marriage. 

Marriage, in my eyes, is a very private endeavor between 2 (or more, I suppose) people, and nobody else.  There is no need to get the government or religious institutions involved (these are myths perpetuated by religious institutions/governments/societies).   Marriage doesn't have to be anything more than a shared commitment, like two people agreeing to take turns with the dishes. You don't need to sign any contracts, or state it out loud in front of family and God, to share this type of commitment.  

In fact, it's not even necessary to call it a 'marriage' to share a mutual life long commitment to the happiness and wellbeing of another human.   It only requires the shared commitment.   There would be no 'divorce rates' at all if there wasn't such an attachment to strictly defining what a 'marriage' is.  There would just be a lot of people ending their commitments prematurely due to undesirable or unforeseen or overlooked circumstances, which sounds rather natural to me.  Should I, after 'marrying' my wife, suddenly decide I'm just going to quit my job, spend all of our mutual money on unprotected sex with hookers, and then come home and beat her within inches of her life.. 'divorce' would seem like the best, most rational, course of action.  You would think there wouldn't be a person on the planet who would tell that woman.. 'well, you did say for better or worse'.. and yet, there are those people who would say just that. There are wives who would stay in that marriage, because society (mostly Religious institutions) has convinced them that getting a divorce is somehow a worse option than getting physically assaulted every night.  

Who cares if 50% of marriages end in divorce.. that's not a bad thing, and probably keeps spousal murder rates down.  Some people take that 'til death do us part' part very seriously. 

 

[Terell Kirby]

23 minutes ago, Mason Riggle said:

In fact, it's not even necessary to call it a 'marriage' to share a mutual life long commitment to the happiness and wellbeing of another human.   

THIS sums it up really..I think most folks are fixated on the idea of marriage than the reality of it as well. I've seen cases where the happiest moment of the partnership was the wedding alone, then it all went to hell shortly after.

[Peter Miklis]

@Mason Riggle That " 'till death do us part" is exactly what's wrong with marriage. It's just not realistic at all. It doesn't take into account the dynamic nature of life, and that people change. It's not wrong to be with a person 10, 20 years, or even a lifetime, but people shouldn't have to suffer any consequences if they, or their partner decide to leave.

 

[SgtPepper]

Marriage is highly valuable. 

Not only does it fulfill human needs, but it is a challenging experience that is spiritually enlightening in itself.

I also think it is the best situation for children to grow up in.

My parents always had a good marriage so I see a lot of value. Hard to explain to others though cause I can see a lot of pessimism here about it lol.