Communes and homesteads to gain political power?

[John Paul]

Is this realistic in y'all's opinions: A person buys land. They find people who are green or higher SD and who have a certain degree of maturity etc. etc. and let them camp out for free (or donation) and have a commune (not cult) that is built slowly one person at a time. There are rules such as no drug use etc. that will be enforced. Trust worthy and committed people are given an additional task to stop and/or report lie spreading to the leader(s). Trust worthy and committed people are chosen to be listeners and learn how to be a pseudo-therapist for people. Music, yoga, art, conscious business, sharing etc. you get the picture anyway-

People are encouraged to save up money and start their own homestead/commune and participate only in conscious business. Through homestead/garden/farming etc. chickens, hunting. We have more power to boycott big businesses that aren't practicing conscious (non-manipulative, non-exploitative) business etc. You see the picture? We buy the land, use it resourcefully and practice self-responsibility and kindness, honesty, generosity etc. and be super intentional ahead of time and make sure that truth and higher perspectives are always reinforced on premises. 

Thoughts?

[Parththakkar12]

It is the future.

If we do it hierarchically though, it would be more expensive than our current political system. People will not gravitate towards a hierarchical system that takes responsibility for people's health, wealth and happiness! The point of a hierarchical system is survival and only survival. Individually and collectively. It's very pragmatic because that's how the leader of a hierarchy has to be! There are reasons why our present political systems don't care about the health, wealth and happiness of the public.

You would need more holarchical systems! Systems that are not centralized, that are decentralized.

If you have mental growth-dynamics or education-systems that respect the mental autonomy of everyone involved, that don't rely on indoctrination, which doesn't respect people's mental autonomy, that would be a decentralized way of collective narrative-creation. We already have the internet, which is a decentralized way of spreading information. Nobody controls the internet because it is a bottom-up system! The education-system, schools and colleges, etc. are top-down and they controlled the spread of information before the Information Age, before the internet.

If you have a way of creating a 'mainstream narrative' that is decentralized, then we're talking. That means that the moral system can be decentralized! Once you have that going, you stop needing governments. Then we can enter a more holarchical era and those holarchical systems will be far more efficient than hierarchical systems, because they will be more flexible! That'll solve the problem of rigidity with hierarchical systems.

[John Paul]

How doesn't indoctrination respect people's mental autonomy? 

 

I think the problem with the internet compared to the vision I shared is that low quality lies are allowed to spread on the internet. I'm not anti-free speech but lies are such a huge obstacle for an individual to make the leap to stage yellow, ya know? People who come to the commune are people who want to see this system make it to the next stage for global warming, human rights etc. green stuff. And so they will go to stage yellow to fulfill their green needs?

 

What makes you think that people won't gravitate toward starting their own homestead and letting the old system crumble? Isn't the mainstream narrative of green saying this same thing except without actually going to this extreme to defeat corruption?

 

I don't want to stop having a government. We will have all of our "needs" from Maslow fulfilled and so we will want the same for other's and so we will not allow corruption in our system, we will use all of our power to unite and force the system to work for us and our people and then people outside of our state and country governments too. 

 

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

1 minute ago, John Paul said:

How doesn't indoctrination respect people's mental autonomy? 

It tells you what to believe. This is totally unnatural. Human beings are not designed to blindly believe hearsay, we have our own brains that construct our own narratives and worldviews. Yes, you do need information from sources to construct your worldview but when you do it unconsciously, you are totally mind-controlled by the indoctrinator.

The problem is that people aren't conscious of how their mind constructs reality. Which is why indoctrination works. If we wake up to this reality, indoctrination becomes untenable! It stops working. It is a doomed strategy for this very reason, because this truth that our mind constructs all of reality can't be hidden for far too long from us anymore.

4 minutes ago, John Paul said:

What makes you think that people won't gravitate toward starting their own homestead and letting the old system crumble? Isn't the mainstream narrative of green saying this same thing except without actually going to this extreme to defeat corruption?

If we don't create a holarchical system, the subsequent hierarchical systems will get more and more controlling and dominating. It will become very difficult for you to start your own homestead when you have people saying 'You will own nothing and you will be happy'!

As far as corruption is concerned, it is not a bug in hierarchical systems. It is a feature. We think we can root it out of the system but the reality is that if you actually do it, you will root out the hierarchical system itself!! Try doing that. You'll know what I'm talking about!!

6 minutes ago, John Paul said:

I don't want to stop having a government. We will have all of our "needs" from Maslow fulfilled and so we will want the same for other's and so we will not allow corruption in our system, we will use all of our power to unite and force the system to work for us and our people and then people outside of our state and country governments too. 

Holarchical systems can also meet your needs. In fact, if they're decentralized, then it'll be a lot more efficient at that! The world will become more utopian, in fact.

Your strategy is one of rebelling and protesting. Cannot possibly work, unfortunately. They will just keep creating new narratives, new 'solutions'. They are such experts at controlling the masses and controlling protests that their 'solutions' will be these half-assed sad excuses for the real thing and then everyone will just have enough of the hue and cry, life will go back to normal. Also, it plays into their hands because you're going and crying to big daddy government for solutions! You're giving them more and more power by doing that and it's not possible for them to not abuse it. They must abuse their power over you because you abdicated it!

[John Paul]

Are you suggesting that we don't have any education whatsoever? Is that all considered disrespecting an individual's mental autonomy? Is Leo disrespecting mental autonomy? 

 

Who will be saying "you will own nothing and you will be happy!" and who will be listening and believing?

I don't know what you mean about rooting out the whole system. Can you tell me more and give me an example? Dumb it down for me?

 

Please tell me what a holarchial system will look like even vaguely. 

 

What solutions could they possible create if we are almost completely self-sufficient?

What makes you think that the average green person would be that easy to manipulate? What could they be sold so that they give up homesteading and go back to shopping at safeway and watching TV?

 

Crying to who? If we all have personal power we won't be crying to anyone. You don't think the people could hard negotiate with the government?

 

 

[Parththakkar12]

33 minutes ago, John Paul said:

Are you suggesting that we don't have any education whatsoever? Is that all considered disrespecting an individual's mental autonomy? Is Leo disrespecting mental autonomy? 

This is not a personal attack on anyone. The issue is with the structure of the system. People like Leo have to operate within the system to help us break out of it. So, spiritual teachers can be considered exceptions to this situation.

As far as education is concerned, we do not remember most of the memorization that we did in that system. We don't use most of what we learn in school in our everyday lives. I would not consider that an 'education'. It's more like the anti-education system!

33 minutes ago, John Paul said:

Who will be saying "you will own nothing and you will be happy!" and who will be listening and believing?

https://www.forbes.com/sites/worldeconomicforum/2016/11/10/shopping-i-cant-really-remember-what-that-is-or-how-differently-well-live-in-2030/?sh=6a137e831735

It was there on the World Economic Forum's site. They may have deleted it now but I can assure you it was there!

33 minutes ago, John Paul said:

I don't know what you mean about rooting out the whole system. Can you tell me more and give me an example? Dumb it down for me?

Every hierarchical system has an agenda. It goes agenda-first, not truth-first. There is a survival-agenda first, then a narrative is built to support that survival-agenda! That narrative may or may not be true, but if it supports the agenda, it will be acted on! The leader's agenda is the system's agenda. The system goes in the direction the leader wants it to go.

What this does is that it creates deep epistemic problems, in that the narrative of the system will be indoctrinated into the parts of the system, i.e. all the people occupying positions in the system. Whether it matches with reality or not! And, everyone has to believe it because there is massive hierarchical pressure on them. A very good example is the story of 'The Emperor has no clothes'.

This is the fundamental corruption that comes with a hierarchical system. Now, if you are to root out the corruption, you root out the system!

33 minutes ago, John Paul said:

Please tell me what a holarchial system will look like even vaguely.

Cryptocurrencies are a good example of a holarchical system. It's decentralized money.

The free-market is another holarchical system.

An education-system in which the teacher interacts with the conscious mind of the student and trains their minds to think about and make sense of things, solve problems, think critically.

The problem with indoctrination is that you aren't interacting with the conscious, logical mind of the student, you are interacting with their subconscious mind and programming it. When you throw so much information at a student, their mind gives up on being able to process all of that information and it becomes dull. This makes the student zone out and into a zombie-like state! The lectures have been designed this way. Then, when you grow up and watch TV, they can throw information at you through the news and you will let it in without processing it like you've been trained to by your school. School trains you to listen passively.

What can be done instead would be to involve the classroom in activities in which you actively listen to important information and use it to solve problems, collectively. And, real problems. That's a more holarchical way of doing it! You won't have to force it on them, their brains will want to do the work of thinking about it and being creative about it.

33 minutes ago, John Paul said:

What solutions could they possible create if we are almost completely self-sufficient?

What makes you think that the average green person would be that easy to manipulate? What could they be sold so that they give up homesteading and go back to shopping at safeway and watching TV?

My bad. I didn't think this through. This looks fine to me. This is more holarchical, this would be a food-system that's more bottom-up in that you aren't depending on their food-system.

You can release dependency on the government food-system if you get your own homestead. That's fine. You can't use it to get political power though. Because if the old system goes down, and it was the best we could do in terms of hierarchical systems, I don't think you can make it work again.

33 minutes ago, John Paul said:

Crying to who? If we all have personal power we won't be crying to anyone. You don't think the people could hard negotiate with the government?

There is no way to hard-negotiate with the government. A government is pure force! Pure control. There is nothing legitimate about governments. You can argue with them but you can never have any leverage over them in a negotiation.

Edited June 20, 2021 by Parththakkar12

[TheSomeBody]

well, your ideas have been implamented in israel, it called kibbuz, it still existing but mostly capitalist 

[John Paul]

I feel like rent is a big killer on people's ability to meet survival needs and become free from wage slavery. To spend money on land for a good price and provide space for those who also want to escape wage slavery seems like a pretty good plan, I don't see why it wouldn't work.